Raw Food: Should I be adding supplements?

kcb385

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Hi, 

I've been feeding my kitten for a year now on raw food. I follow the PMR (Prey Model Raw) diet and leave the pieces of meat in chunks and feed 3 times a day. My recipe includes a balanced diet of muscle meat (beef, chicken and chicken hearts), bones, liver and secreting organ (kidney or spleen). I do supplement one meal per day with some taurine and coconut oil and about once a week with a sardine (no oil or salt). 

My question is: is this enough? I see multiple recipes online that include B complex, Vitamin E etc. Is what I do enough or am I seriously depriving my cat of the essentials? It was my understanding that they wouldn't normally have the supplements in the wild and that a diet that resembles the make-up of a wild animal would provide all the essential vitamins and nutrients.

Please let me know if my thinking is correct.

Thanks!!! 
 

orange&white

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I've read that the main reason for the Vitamin E is that fish oil supplement can bind and deplete the Vitamin E.  I also rotate a few ounces of either sardines, salmon, or mackerel (all canned in water) instead of fish oil, but I do supplement Vitamin E when I make batches of cat food.

I use the supplements recommended by Dr. Lisa Pierson (except fish oil and salt):  taurine, B Complex, and Vitamin E.  She also recommends Lite Salt...I believe the purpose is for the iodine.  The fish I'm feeding contains iodine, and I do use fish tinned in water WITH salt, so I don't add more salt.  I've had no luck finding fish tinned unsalted in water, but if I did, then I would be adding the iodized Lite Salt.
 

orange&white

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Sorry,   I cut my answer short.   I’m at working and should be working (not contributing to the cat site).

I’m not really sure why the B Complex is needed, but it is water soluble, so I figure they can’t overdose on the recommended amount.   Better safe than sorry.

I also add egg yolks.   They are just packed full of vitamins and highly bioavailable.

I was a member of a bulk-meat buying club for raw feeders for about 4 years.   Some of the members didn’t use any supplements.   I sort of feel like the right mix of meat/bone/organ un-supplemented with anything else has to be 100x better than a lifetime of kibble, but I do use those few supplements because…why not?
 

orange&white

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I love that sample menu you posted, Dorimon!  Always looking for a little variety.   That chart  reminded me that I used to occasionally buy feeder crickets for my cat who passed last September.   Put him in the bathtub with 2-3 live crickets…best toy (and snack) in the world!   Now that is a high-taurine, high-protein diet supplement with added exercise routine!   I need to see if the new kitten likes crickets.   My senior cat doesn’t care for them.

Even though I feed chunks, not ground, I still like to make the supplement slurry.   My cats like the “gravy” and lap it up before eating the chunks.
 

riley1

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I am curious about this as well1  If you feed your cat raw meat, which is what he should eat, why would you need something else.  Cats in the wild don't get supplements.  I use commercial raw so I don't need to worry but I have wondered about this.
 

Columbine

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PMR works on the principle that, over the week, your cat's diet will balance out, and sets out to mimic a cat's 'natural' diet as closely as possible. A cat hunting and killing its food would naturally eat a variety of animals, according to what was available at the time. Because one of the cornerstones of PMR is variety, no supplementation is required :) (provided it's done with due care and attention to nutrition, of course ;) ).

When feeding ground raw, however, there's very often far less variety over a similar time span - most people who make raw this way will make up a batch at a time, all with the same protein source(s). It's rare to use more than two proteins in the same batch, simply because it becomes impractical. Because of this, supplementation is essential to ensure a balanced diet.[article="31714"][/article]
 

orange&white

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I am curious about this as well1  If you feed your cat raw meat, which is what he should eat, why would you need something else.  Cats in the wild don't get supplements.  I use commercial raw so I don't need to worry but I have wondered about this.
Mainly because feedlot livestock - beef, chicken, and pork - are being fed really crummy diets themselves these days.

If I could afford grass-fed beef and other free range types of organic meats where those animals were raised on species-appropriate foods, then I wouldn't give a second thought to supplements.

One thing I wonder about is that if person A and person B are feeding the exact same quantity and type of meat/bone/organ, but person A processes the ingredients in a grinder and person B processes by cutting one or two inch cubes, then person A needs supplements but person B does not.  I do understand the "theory" that ground meat is subject to more nutrient loss when freezing and thawing, but at the end of the day, the cat eating person A's food and the cat eating person B's food are consuming the exact same type, quantity, and calories of food....except that cat A is getting added vitamins that cat B is not.  It just doesn't make logical sense to me even if it sounds good in theory. 

I think supplements to a balanced meat/bone/organ diet are "probably" optional.  Kind of like some people take multivitamins and other people don't take any, but both people can thrive regardless as long a the main part of their diets are equally healthy.
 

dorimon

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One thing I wonder about is that if person A and person B are feeding the exact same quantity and type of meat/bone/organ, but person A processes the ingredients in a grinder and person B processes by cutting one or two inch cubes, then person A needs supplements but person B does not.  I do understand the "theory" that ground meat is subject to more nutrient loss when freezing and thawing, but at the end of the day, the cat eating person A's food and the cat eating person B's food are consuming the exact same type, quantity, and calories of food....except that cat A is getting added vitamins that cat B is not.  It just doesn't make logical sense to me even if it sounds good in theory.
Some vitamins and nutrients, such as vitamin B, are very sensitive to water, air, heat, and light.  The process of grinding meat introduces all of those factors into the meat, and also creates greater surface area for continued nutrient loss even after grinding.

Perhaps if the meat is fed immediately after grinding, there would not be as much of a difference.  But typically meats are ground and frozen, then thawed and supplemented, then frozen again (if not feeding right away), and finally thawed once more for feeding.

The meat we feed in our homes is not quite the same as the fresh meat our babies would theoretically eat in the wild.
 

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Mainly because feedlot livestock - beef, chicken, and pork - are being fed really crummy diets themselves these days.

If I could afford grass-fed beef and other free range types of organic meats where those animals were raised on species-appropriate foods, then I wouldn't give a second thought to supplements.

One thing I wonder about is that if person A and person B are feeding the exact same quantity and type of meat/bone/organ, but person A processes the ingredients in a grinder and person B processes by cutting one or two inch cubes, then person A needs supplements but person B does not.  I do understand the "theory" that ground meat is subject to more nutrient loss when freezing and thawing, but at the end of the day, the cat eating person A's food and the cat eating person B's food are consuming the exact same type, quantity, and calories of food....except that cat A is getting added vitamins that cat B is not.  It just doesn't make logical sense to me even if it sounds good in theory. 

I think supplements to a balanced meat/bone/organ diet are "probably" optional.  Kind of like some people take multivitamins and other people don't take any, but both people can thrive regardless as long a the main part of their diets are equally healthy.
The whole point is that PMR feeders and ground raw feeders are NOT feeding the exact same thing. See my post above ;)

It wouldn't matter how wonderful the organic, grass fed meat etc was, if you weren't feeding a varied diet and paying attention to the nutritional profile of the diet, it would still be unbalanced - probably just as unbalanced as the non organic, grain fed meat. Unbalanced diets can kill - that's why it's vital to supplement a ground raw (or cooked) homemade diet. PMR done with due care and attention is the only exception to this rule.[article="31801"][/article][article="33251"][/article]
 

orange&white

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Some vitamins and nutrients, such as vitamin B, are very sensitive to water, air, heat, and light.  The process of grinding meat introduces all of those factors into the meat, and also creates greater surface area for continued nutrient loss even after grinding.

Perhaps if the meat is fed immediately after grinding, there would not be as much of a difference.  But typically meats are ground and frozen, then thawed and supplemented, then frozen again (if not feeding right away), and finally thawed once more for feeding.

The meat we feed in our homes is not quite the same as the fresh meat our babies would theoretically eat in the wild.
Yes, I do understand the water, air, heat, and light theory.  Still it doesn't make complete logical sense to me.  If both Person A (Grinder) and Person B (Chopper) both start with partially frozen meats and work quickly to process, package, and freeze then it doesn't seem like there would be a statistically significant difference in nutrients.  There would be more difference if Grinder starts with partially frozen meats and gets it processed and back in the freezer before the chill is even off the meat, but Chopper let their meat thaw on the counter, took more  time chopping and packaging the meat and it was pretty much at room temp by the time it went back to the freezer.  In that case, one could argue that Chopper is the person who has lost more nutrients. than Grinder.

There are just a lot of variables more than grinding versus chopping.

Anyway, I'm not really concerned about people who do a lot of research and spend time worrying about things like these (like all of us pondering the question here), and then decide to supplement or not supplement their pets' balanced raw food. 
 

lisamarie12

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 Cats in the wild don't get supplements.  I use commercial raw so I don't need to worry but I have wondered about this.
Cats in their natural habitat would get a fresh kill, whole prey diet, very different from meats that have been ground / cut.

There are two schools of thought regarding PMR diets, one that supplements and the other that doesn't.

While I don't do PMR, I do use whole carcass grinds from HT and I always supplement, eg, taurine, B- complex, Vit E, fish oil.
 

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I feed my cat 80% raw ground chicken parts. (bones included).  20% other game.
Sprinkled with WildTrax supplement.

This isn't what a cat in the wild would eat.  Cat's in the wild will eat anything, and generally, they don't live very long.
 
 

orange&white

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I always find discussions of different methods and ingredients used by us raw dieters interesting and useful. 

It also usually occurs to me that raw dieter discussions are analogous to parents who care enough to study child nutrition and get into serious discussions over whether children should eat their broccoli raw or cooked, while the majority of parents are not doing any research into child nutrition and are off at McDonald's buying their kids Happy Meals.  So then we have the raw dieters as the Grinders and the Choppers versus the non-raw dieters as the Kibblers. 
 
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kcb385

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Nutrients are lost when grinding meat, which is why it is necessary to supplement ground raw diets.

If you're feeding PMR, you don't need to supplement as long as you are feeding a complete balanced diet.

This is an example menu that doesn't require additional supplementation: http://catcentric.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/My-Feeding-Schedule.pdf
Thanks for that link, I follow something like that as well. So good to know that what I'm doing is enough. I've heard as well, and like a lot of the members have written in this post, that freezing affects the nutrients, so sometimes I will add in some extra Taurine.
 
I love that sample menu you posted, Dorimon!  Always looking for a little variety.   That chart  reminded me that I used to occasionally buy feeder crickets for my cat who passed last September.   Put him in the bathtub with 2-3 live crickets…best toy (and snack) in the world!   Now that is a high-taurine, high-protein diet supplement with added exercise routine!   I need to see if the new kitten likes crickets.   My senior cat doesn’t care for them.

Even though I feed chunks, not ground, I still like to make the supplement slurry.   My cats like the “gravy” and lap it up before eating the chunks.
Crickets as a snack is very interesting! We frequently take my cat to my mom's where they have a lizard that eats crickets. Once one of the crickets had escaped and my cat chased and hunted the cricket and ended up eating it. But I didn't think much of it. Maybe I'll start doing what you do!

Thanks to everyone that posted, really useful information!
 

dorimon

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Thanks for that link, I follow something like that as well. So good to know that what I'm doing is enough. I've heard as well, and like a lot of the members have written in this post, that freezing affects the nutrients, so sometimes I will add in some extra Taurine.
From what I've gathered (somebody please correct me if I'm wrong), the primary concern with freezing is actually the loss of water when thawing the food.  Water-soluble vitamins/nutrients will be in the water, and it's important that you don't throw out this "vitamin water," but mix it back in when feeding.

Taurine is one such example of a water-soluble nutrient.
 

orange&white

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Crickets as a snack is very interesting! We frequently take my cat to my mom's where they have a lizard that eats crickets. Once one of the crickets had escaped and my cat chased and hunted the cricket and ended up eating it. But I didn't think much of it. Maybe I'll start doing what you do!
The crickets were an infrequent treat when I remembered to pick up a few while stocking up on cat litter.  One time the cashier was ringing up my bag of live crickets and asked, "Oh, what kind of animals are you feeding?"  I said, "Three cats and two dogs."  She tilted her head and looked at me kind of funny.

I noticed last week that my local Pet Supplies Plus quit selling feeder crickets (and birds, rodents and reptiles).  My office gets bombarded with them after a summer rain, so I may trap some in a jar.  Then my boss can look at me kind of funny.
 
From what I've gathered (somebody please correct me if I'm wrong), the primary concern with freezing is actually the loss of water when thawing the food.  Water-soluble vitamins/nutrients will be in the water, and it's important that you don't throw out this "vitamin water," but mix it back in when feeding.

Taurine is one such example of a water-soluble nutrient.
​Yes, you are correct.  The taurine doesn't "evaporate" or otherwise disappear; it pools into the defrost water.  I always pour any water from the freezer bags into the food mix, and don't defrost meat in the original package that has that spongy absorbent pad underneath.
 
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kcb385

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From what I've gathered (somebody please correct me if I'm wrong), the primary concern with freezing is actually the loss of water when thawing the food.  Water-soluble vitamins/nutrients will be in the water, and it's important that you don't throw out this "vitamin water," but mix it back in when feeding.

Taurine is one such example of a water-soluble nutrient.
 
The crickets were an infrequent treat when I remembered to pick up a few while stocking up on cat litter.  One time the cashier was ringing up my bag of live crickets and asked, "Oh, what kind of animals are you feeding?"  I said, "Three cats and two dogs."  She tilted her head and looked at me kind of funny.

I noticed last week that my local Pet Supplies Plus quit selling feeder crickets (and birds, rodents and reptiles).  My office gets bombarded with them after a summer rain, so I may trap some in a jar.  Then my boss can look at me kind of funny.

​Yes, you are correct.  The taurine doesn't "evaporate" or otherwise disappear; it pools into the defrost water.  I always pour any water from the freezer bags into the food mix, and don't defrost meat in the original package that has that spongy absorbent pad underneath.
About the taurine, good to know that the taurine doesn't just disappear! Thanks guys.
 

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I don't believe that Rad Cat adds supplements.  They use grass fed animals & include organ meets.  I am trying to stay with species appropriate but there are not a lot of options.  My girl gets Rad Cat Chicken, Turkey & Lamb as well as Primal Rabbit each day.  The catinfo site listed the values for raw but then removed them all saying that the commercial foods contains too much bone.  That is why I am using the Rad Cat; they use egg shells & seem to know the importance of how much.  Except for chicken & turkey all their other protein is red meat. She prefers the Rad Cat over everything else.   Plus, if I had more than one I am not sure I would want to spend that much on Rad Cat.
 

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Plus, if I had more than one I am not sure I would want to spend that much on Rad Cat.
I just looked up the price on Rad Cat...$12.00/lb.????  That was online at Only Natural Pets.  Yikes!

I'm with you...I could afford one cat on that budget, but I'm feeding 2 cats and a 25lb dog.  They go through 40 pounds of meat every month.  I just made a 4.5 pound batch of cat food for $3.84 total.
 
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