Possible IBD? Please advise me on what to do

Columbine

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You can get plain canned pumpkin from Tesco too - at least, you can in my local one. It's in the American foods section :)

@foxycat has some great suggestions. I wouldn't recommend an abrupt change to raw food only though - that could cause more problems, just as any abrupt change could (especially to a totally different food format ;) ). Your best bet is to pick one protein and stick to it for a while, until you can gauge better what's going on :)

Be cautious, and make one change at a time. I really hope you see some improvement soon :vibes:
 
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Columbine

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Just re-read the first post, and realised you feed dry food too :doh3: Here are some novel protein/single protein dry foods:-

From Zooplus
GranataPet Duck
Nutro Natural Choice Turkey
Integra Protect Sensitive
James Wellbeloved Turkey/Grain Free Turkey
James Wellbeloved Housecat Duck

Note - Feringa Duck contains poultry fat, so isn't truly single protein ;)

From Pets at Home
Aatu Duck (my girl LOVES this :yummy: )
 
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foxxycat

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I was only trying to eliminate yucky additives in the food-but yes that's probably best to stick with fully cooked diets. My cats never liked home cooked diets either. They like their biscuits despite how much I try to lure them with wet food. Hopefully your kitten takes to wet food since now is the time to train them to eat wet food.
 
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pendragon

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Hi all,

First of all, thank you for the amazing feedback, ideas and general support, it will take me a while to properly look at and try everything!

Concerning the diet it's a bit complicated.

You see, my first cat was Melody the Bengal. Such a sweet, adorable girl, I fed her only raw meat and canned, i would leave dry food only on the very rare occasions that for a reason or another nobody would be home for a full day (I lived with my parents and brother).

However once I moved here to the UK, I wanted to bring her with me, she had grown very attached to me, and would basically ignore the rest of my family, I didn't want to leave her behind, but I was forced to at the beginning, because I discovered that since January 2016 the airline companies had stopped allowing the transport of pets in the UK, and the only way was sending her in a cargo !!! with all the risks involved and for a fee of about 1500 pounds, which at the time was out of budget anyways being jobless.

Anyways long story short, after managing to settle in and get a decent job, I finally managed to find a mean of transport through a company offering to drive through Europe and eventually bringing me my girl.

Since I pass a lot of time at work, I thought it would have been a good idea to get her a friend. Well, once she finally arrived and met Frenzy, let's say that despite him being a kitten, things didn't exactly go as I expected.

He wouldn't leave her alone, and as of today, they still hate each other :( they managed to get to a level where they barely tolerate each other, but she doesn't want him too close or she'll start growling and hissing at him.

All of this to say that as he grown up, he became the boss, and when it comes to food, I would have to keep them separate in order for her to eat anything... hence why I leave dry food for grazing (only grain free food of the brands I thought were the best based on my research for quality/price. Until now I used Acana, optimanova and thrive)

She's not a big eater, and would take her forever to finish all her raw food meal, I don't want her to be closed in a room (or close him) for too long unless necessary. I even bought something called surepet feeder, but it's useless since he hears from miles the sound it makes when it opens, so she runs for her life as soon as he comes to investigate.

However I still feed raw and canned, it's just that he's the one who gets to eat most of it if not all (never seen a bigger eater in my life, the amounts when he goes potty are scary).

First thing first, I'll decide one novel protein and try to stick to that for a while as i keep giving him probiotics, I am definitely making a check up list of all those great suggestions, it's great to have new things to try and improve the situation.

@Brian007:

Thanks for the tips concerning how to (try) and diagnose IBD. However if despite an invasive surgery and blood work, you still can't be 100% sure, and even if you were sure, there's no specific cure, so it's hard to justify all that the cat would have to go through and the expenses. I could potentially afford it by saving up, but I am not sure it's worth it as things stand.
 

Columbine

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It's actually surprisingly common for cats (and dogs) to be allergic to chicken. I'm not sure why this happens, but it definitely does.

I would have thought that ibd is unlikely, given his age, so I think I'd be investigating other avenues first. Do you know exactly what his faecal test tested for, and whether it was a PCR test or a flotation test? The symptoms you're describing sound very much like giardia to me - especially the coming and going of the bloody diarrhoea.

Whereabouts are you in the UK? We have a number of UK members here, and someone may well be able to recommend a vet in your area. I'd certainly be considering a second opinion if you can afford it - you don't sound happy with your current vet, and you have a right to have a vet you trust. [article="31569"][/article][article="22404"][/article][article="32578"][/article]
 
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pendragon

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@Columbine
I live in Calverton a small village in the Nottingham-shire.

For what concerns the fecal tests, they say that it was done for:

Microbiology

Faecal Microscopic exam, no ova, larvae or protozoa found

Campylobacter culture not detected

Salmonella culture not detected

Yersinia culture not detected

Parasitology

Cryptosporidium antigen not detected

The vet said that those were all the possible tests...
 

Columbine

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I'm afraid I don't know any vets in your area (I'm in Yorkshire). The best I can say is that we always used Medivet practices when we were in London, and always found them to be very good (this is going back a while though ;) ). I noticed that there are two in your area, so one of them might be worth a try. This is the search I came up with. Hopefully someone nearer you will be able to chime in soon :cross:

That breakdown isn't clear to me. The PCR test may have been listed as 'Microbiology', but I'm not certain. @StephenQ is much better with this kind of thing than I am. I suspect the antibiotics were prescribed because girardia was a possibility - antibiotics are the treatment for girardia infections. Definitely go ahead and give your boy the full course - they may well be all he needs ;) The article I linked to before explains more about girardia and their treatment :)
 

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P pendragon
You've received some excellent advice from our top members.

I'd like to suggest a journal or notebook for Frenzy. You can take pictures of Frenzy to document how he looks, log the food he's eating and how much he's eating. You can record his day-to-day behaviors, if he's drinking water and what's happening in the litter box. You can even take pictures of the litter box to "show" the vet exactly what is happening. Any probiotics and meds should also be included.

If you change vets, this information will be extremely helpful to you and the new vet. The detailed records will also help your current vet.

I know english is not your first language, but your written english is excellent. You will be able to show the vet all the observations you have made, and all the different things you are testing.

That reduces the chance of miscommunication, and will show the vet that you are actively working to solve Frenzy's issues in measured ways. That can bring the vet to feel like more of an ally in this process.

My own vet has added 2 different vets to his staff. I don't feel as tuned in to these vets as I did with the vet who recently left this practice.

I don't have any serious ongoing issues with my young cats, but I'm still considering changing vets. I live in a relatively well-populated area, so I'm able to switch fairly easily.

By the way, none of these specialty foods will harm Melody. Other than additional costs (and I understand these foods can be expensive), any food labeled as a complete diet for adults is ok for Melody to eat as well. That could simplify feeding time at home.
 
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pendragon

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@foxden,

A great idea, i'll try to keep track of all the changes and related effects. I did take pictures to show the vet at first, before the fecal tests, to give her an idea of how they looked like (gross I know, but had to be done)

@Columbine:

I probably didn't explain myself well enough sorry, allow me to clarify.

The first time the vet suggested the antibiotics and the the chicken, I followed the instructions to the letter. Only cooked chicken, the antibiotics for the 5 days twice a day as prescribed and the probiotics as prescribed.

I didn't interrupt it at all, but the drug was not in mono-doses or anything like that. It was a small bottle, I believe hand filled by the vet assistant, that contained more than I needed for the full treatment.

That's the only reason I had some leftover, I would never be so arrogant to decide myself if and when to interrupt a cure once I started it (unless I could clearly notice that something was going wrong with it of course).

Also, please note that the fecal test was prescribed after the antibiotic treatment, therefore she either gave for granted the antibiotic did the trick, or she didn't have a clue about what she was doing if she didn't add this worm to the list to check for.

She mentioned to try again the antibiotics the same day she recommended the tests, but I told her I preferred to just run the fecal tests since in my opinion the antibiotics (full treatment) didn't work, and before saying I didn't want the antibiotics I asked her "which antibiotics, the same you prescribed last time?" she replied yes, and that's why I said "I had some leftover" to look for which would have been her reaction.

That's when she sort of dismissed the idea like "yeah alright whatever you can use that if you have some left". I hate to pass for someone who is mistrustful of others, but she wouldn't happen to be unfortunately the first vet I tried who only cares about selling you unneeded cures/foods. For instance recommending kibbles of the usual royal canin / science hill and saying that raw food is dangerous and that you should never feed that. Well it can be dangerous if you don't know what you are doing, that I can agree with, but they are completely against the idea sometimes, rather than being informative and teach you HOW to feed raw meat.

Anyways I am going off topic, to summarize, I wasn't against the antibiotics in general, I was against the thought of using again the same antibiotics I had just used for the full treatment.

She definitely looked to me like she wanted to sell more of that, and I find very hard not to imagine ulterior motives behind such recommendation.

Thanks again for the amazing feedback, I'll keep you all updated!
 
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Columbine

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Sadly, one downfall of vets (in my experience) is that they're not always very good at explaining WHY they're prescribing medications, unless you specifically ask for more details. It's fairly standard to prescribe prophylactically here, so my guess is that she thought giardia was the most likely culprit, and decided to treat Frenzy as though that were the problem before testing. I'm not defending her - just offering a possible explanation for the order she did things in :) I apologise for misunderstanding about the antibiotics - it's pretty easy to get crossed wires here sometimes ;) I agree that it seems odd to prescribe a second course of the same antibiotic when the first course was ineffective. It's also not unusual to get given too much medication to take home, especially with liquids. I think its usually a simple mistake, or maybe preferring to give a little too much in case of accidents (I've wasted a fair amount of medicine over the years with determinedly meds-resistant animals :rolleyes: ).

Not wanting to sidetrack too much, I think the problem a lot of vets have with raw food is that, done badly, it can go very wrong indeed, and these are the cases that are most likely to stick in their mind. I knew a rottweiler puppy who got near fatal food poisoning from a poorly managed raw diet. Sadly, there will always be owners who (even with proper guidance/information) don't treat raw feeding with the respect it deserves, and for that reason, many vets will be cautious/suspicious of it.

From everything you've said, you have good reason to seek a second opinion. Bottom line is that you don't trust this vet, and that alone is reason enough to go elsewhere imo :nod: I really hope you find a vet you DO trust very soon...and that Frenzy's back to full health soon too :vibes::vibes::vibes::vibes::vibes::vibes::vibes::vibes::vibes:
 

Brian007

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@Pendragon  it's ever so difficult to know how to handle a vet you feel unsure about.  Is there only the one vet at the practice?  Maybe they have a locum vet sometimes who you could ask to see.  If you're slap-bang in the middle of the countryside, your vet might be more large animal oriented.  But Nottingham is a biggish city, and only 7 miles away, hopefully you can find a vet you have more confidence in there.  

I agree with the reasoning behind not seeing the point in an expensive biopsy in order to prove IBD, if you're to treat the symptoms anyhow.  However, it might be an idea to have the blood test to rule out other diseases that may require different treatments.

And taking photos of suspicious looking pet poo is a common occurrence.  I was away in S Asia for a long time and the topic of conversation usually came around to what people's poo was up to, it became so familiar that it was normalised.  People on this site talk of poo and pee so frequently that it would be questioned if you didn't poke about in the litter box! 

   
 
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pendragon

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@Brian007:

Ahah well I don't really have problems to talk about it really, more like bearing the terrible smell... in fact, even if thanks to the probiotics the stool are "softish" but at least not almost liquid diarrhea like, every time I return home there is a smell so strong that it could kill those who are not expecting it.

We are talking about a closed XL litter box (supposed to be used for Maine Coons and Norwegian Forest). I use world's cat best litter because it's compostable and better for the environment rather than producing a lot of waste.

While I only had Melody, it worked fairly well. I could faintly smell she went potty when I was close to the litter box, but it didn't spread through the whole house.

But his poo is a different matter. The smell is beyond belief. I am trying to understand if it's because of what I am feeding since here in the UK they sell different kinds of brands and I have been experimenting (Thrive and applaws for istance. The ingredients seemed very good as well as the % of mean protein and grain free).

I am starting to consider changing kind of litter because I feel embarrassed at the thought of inviting someone and let them feel a smell like that.

Anyway poo and smells aside :D

I'll definitely consider doing the blood test as soon as I find a vet I can trust. The thing I am not really keen upon is the biopsy since as I said, I believe it's too invasive and expansive, I'd consider that only if the vet suspected a tumor.

Nottingham is not that far, but my main problem is reaching it in time before the vet practices actually call it a day.

I'll see what I can find.

Forgot to mention: I ordered the james beloved with duck as the only protein since I remember that I had tried raw turkey and that seems "more common" than the duck (I might be wrong) It also had the rice that maybe could help to harden the stools.

I'll keep you posted.

Cheers
 
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foxxycat

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That's interesting about smell. Sometimes strong smelling poo can indicate some kind of parasite infection and other times it's just the way they are. I had a kitty who didn't have parasite infection but man her poo could clear a room for a long time.
 

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I spent a long time getting to an IBD diagnosis with my cat Rocky-feller. He has food intolerances - esp. poultry.  He gets a complete probiotic sprinkled in his food every morning and night.

He can only eat teh Royal Canin Venison and Pea and Rabbit and Pea food.  He also gets half a prednisole pill every other day.

If your cat is good with the probiotic. Thank your lucky stars.

Keep watching him. Good Luck.
 
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pendragon

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I haven't really got a meaningful update yet.
So far the james well beloved duck doesn't seem to be working very well.
My boy's stools are almost liquid like and terribly stinky (I almost can't tell when the bengal girl goes, and they are on the same food now). Since he started on this food he's also having an unbelievable amount of gas... I can literally see the spasms of his anal glands. It sounds and smells terrible, never seen or smelled anything like that before.
It's been only few days, some adaptation might be needed, but first impressions aren't leaving a lot of room for optimism.

Might still be worth to try other duck only as protein foods, it might very well be that some of the other vegetables/additives aren't doing good to him,

Must admit though that this is starting to become expansive, I got so many different brands open at home it feels like I buy more faster than they eat it.
 

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I'm sorry the James Wellbeloved isn't suiting him :( I hope you find a few that worked for him very soon:vibes:

With dry foods, try contacting the manufacturers and ask for some samples. The worst they can do is say no, after all ;) You'll often have to pay a small fee (to cover postage as much as anything else), but it's worth it to avoid having bags of food rejects piling up! If you don't get a sample, they might well send you a money off voucher, or offer a money back guarantee. Definitely worth investigating :nod:
 

Brian007

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Did you try any 100% unsweetened pumpkin puree?  I'd definitely recommend you giving it a trial run (1 to 3 tsp daily).  It really does work wonders for hardening or softening poo, depending on which is needed.   


It sounds like you're all having a horrendous time.  


Wishing you all solid, sweetly scented, stools.   
 
 

bonnielee

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My cat's poop smelled so bad the entire downstairs reeked and the gas was enough to empty a room.

I was beside myself before we got Rocky stable.

It can take a long time to get an IBD diagnosis. Have you tried a novel protein that is NOT POULTRY? Poultry is a common culpret in cats.

Rocky also gets 1/2 of a 10mg prednisole every other day. We did every day at first.

The venison is not available so Rocky eats teh Royal Canin Rabbit and Venison. 

The non prescription did not do it for Rocky. His gas got worse on teh Natural Balance.

He had to have the prescription Royal Canin  food.

My cat can't eat the dry prescription food because it has soy.

In another six months I'm going to try something new.

(my cat can now tolerate a half a cheese crisp - the ones that are 100% baked parmeson cheese)
 
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pendragon

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Thank you all for your kind words and advice.

Today I have been to the vet to have both my kitties checked up since I am not sure if I mentioned it, but I had to go back to Italy for a week for health issues (nothing serious, just a very small surgery but I wanted my dermatologist I've known since I was a child to be the one to do it) and I left my little ones in the "care" of the "breeder" that sold me Frenzy.

She confirmed pretty much all my impressions. They were very dehydrated, stressed, my bengal girl lost 400g!!! weighing 3.6kg from her 4kgs. She had a couple of wounds on her hind paws. I mentioned if she thought it could have been due to being caged in a small space, uncomfortably sitting without moving for too long. She said she couldn't be sure but she would have bet her money on that if she had to pick a possible reason.

She found Frenzy's intestine a little enlarged and inflamed, she asked me how he was doing when going to the bathroom, I confirmed her he was having issues with gas and soft stools.
Frenzy is now 10 months old and weights already 3.6kgs as well, but it doesn't surprise me so much, his breed his known to be slightly bigger than the average cat, especially males.

The only good news of the day was that today there was a different vet at the practice, and she gave me a better impression, although she was clearly young and probably lacking in experience.
Nevertheless, she at the very least seemed to care, which is more than I could say of the other one.

I asked her about the Giarda and if they checked for it in the fecal test they had me do, she confirmed that it was part of the test, and they found no trace of the eggs or other forms of the giarda, so she said she would exclude that 100%.

I mentioned that I had the feeling he wasn't absorbing the food well, if she thought it might be something alike to pancreatitis, and she mentioned a a blood test usually taken by dogs but that can be done for cats as well. We were past my allotted time, therefore she said she would have given me a full report (that I wanted to have to at the very least let the "breeder" know how much disillusioned and disappointed I am with them) on today's visit and on the details of this blood test by post.

Regardless, I'll go back to meat and probiotic only for a little bit while I check and consider other possible solutions of other brands.

@BonnieLee: concerning poultry, would you mind clarifying me something? I thought it meant basically chicken and derivates. On the james well beloved ingredients you can find poultry gravy. It also says though that it's a single protein food, with duck only.
Therefore, they are either lying, or poultry can also mean "derivates of any bird meat" and I am a poor ignorant foreigner :D Which is it? Either way I'll be happy, in the second case I'll be slightly less ignorant than before, in the first one, I'll now have one less brand to worry about and put in my black list :)
 
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