Semi-Feral Cat Won't Warm Up to Me

nickirows

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Hello, all! I've posted once on these forums before about my Persian cat, Belle, who had some trouble understanding that the litter box, not the floor, was for defecating. You guys had some great advice and she's finally litter box trained! Hurrah! Since the most irritating problem is out of the way, I'm on to the next one. Namely, her personality.

As a kitten (circa 2009?) she belonged to a family which left her outside to get coated in fleas, knocked up by a stray tomcat, and chased by dogs and children. When my mother bought her from the family in 2010, Belle was very shy. She was never aggressive, however. She wouldn't come up to you and would hide if she could, but if you caught her, she'd never bite or scratch. We figured it was a side effect of her upbringing, as well as her being a protective new mother. We kept her in my mom's bathroom for a couple weeks to adjust and then let her out into our two story home. She's always been an indoors-only cat and had nothing to worry about but an overly-friendly dog (however, he was physically barred from the living room, so she had a safe space there if she got sick of doggie kisses). She never warmed up to us, though, not even briefly. We still had to chase her down in order to catch her, usually about once a month to get out the mats of fur and clip her nails. We tried locking her in the bathroom again about 2 years later (circa 2012) and spending time with her, giving her treats and talking kindly to her, but she never seemed to care for it.

Anyway flash forward 7 years to 2017. Belle's about 8 now and she's living with me. I took her last August (so August 2016) as a present for my mom, haha. Belle was pooping and peeing all over my mom's house, and had been for 7 years, so I offered to take her in. I thought that maybe being in a small, studio apartment with one other cat would make her less stressed? It's quieter here, without people coming and going, and no friendly dogs. She and my other cat (Missy) get along great. Moving here didn't fix the peeing/pooping problem though (but Cat Attract did, god bless the person who invented that litter). And it hasn't fixed her personality.

She'll sit near me, on the floor. She'll sleep near me too. On her belly, sometimes on her back with her belly exposed -- which suggests, to me at least, that she's not afraid. She doesn't hide during the day or anything. She plays around me. But whenever I get within a 3-foot radius (5-feet, if I make eye contact), she runs. Even if she's playing with a ball and it rolls near my foot, she'll just give up on getting the ball rather than come near me. Like my mom, I find myself having to catch her monthly and cut/brush mats out and trim her nails, which is stressful for both of us. She hisses when I try to get her, but she's all bark -- once I have her, she's very well-behaved

Sooooooo tldr;; What do I do with a cat who seemingly isn't scared of me, but just straight-up hates me and every other person she's ever met? I've tried different tactics. I've tried approaching her slowly, on her level (basically belly crawling on the floor, thank god I live alone with no one to judge me). I've tried sitting on the floor and playing with her. I even bought some wet tuna chunks today to try to convince her that I want to spoil her (I tossed her a chunk and she sniffed it, then went and sat as far away as possibly -- rude). I don't really know what else to do?

Any help is appreciated, thank you!!!
 

1CatOverTheLine

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What do I do with a cat who seemingly isn't scared of me, but just straight-up hates me and every other person she's ever met?
Cats seldom "hate" people, but they can be annoyed by their environment, and will superimpose that annoyance as well.

Here's a wild guess: are you in a location where the weather's generally warm enough to require air conditioning, or in a building with a commercial size air exchanging unit?

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nickirows

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Cats seldom "hate" people, but they can be annoyed by their environment, and will superimpose that annoyance as well.

Here's a wild guess: are you in a location where the weather's generally warm enough to require air conditioning, or in a building with a commercial size air exchanging unit?

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I used "hate" in the more general term. I know that she doesn't genuinely hate me, as that's an incredibly strong word for what would better be described as "moderate dislike."

I'm curious to see where you're going with this. Yes, I am. I keep it on automatic during the day, so that it turns on only when the temperature rises too high. During December and January, however, I didn't have it (or the heat) turned on at all, with no change in her behavior.
 

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I used "hate" in the more general term. I know that she doesn't genuinely hate me, as that's an incredibly strong word for what would better be described as "moderate dislike."

I'm curious to see where you're going with this. Yes, I am. I keep it on automatic during the day, so that it turns on only when the temperature rises too high. During December and January, however, I didn't have it (or the heat) turned on at all, with no change in her behavior.
Cats' hearing in general doesn't extend quite as far down toward the 'subsonic' level as in Humans.  As such, to a cat, a "low hum" which we simply allow our brain to ignore, adding it into the "white noise" background, can be the equivalent of a fourteen cycle note to Humans - just below the threshold of hearing, and with a tendency to setting off the fear receptors.  Lots of commercial units - especially rooftop units - tend toward a 20 to 30 cycle output - not low enough to be wholly subsonic to Humans and to set off that uneasy feeling one gets with >15 hz vibrations, but certainly subsonic to cats, and perhaps sufficiently "invisible" as to put the fear instinct in motion.

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nickirows

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Cats' hearing in general doesn't extend quite as far down toward the 'subsonic' level as in Humans.  As such, to a cat, a "low hum" which we simply allow our brain to ignore, adding it into the "white noise" background, can be the equivalent of a fourteen cycle note to Humans - just below the threshold of hearing, and with a tendency to setting off the fear receptors.  Lots of commercial units - especially rooftop units - tend toward a 20 to 30 cycle output - not low enough to be wholly subsonic to Humans and to set off that uneasy feeling one gets with >15 hz vibrations, but certainly subsonic to cats, and perhaps sufficiently "invisible" as to put the fear instinct in motion.

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Ah, yes, I remember reading about that in the past! I suspect that the air conditioner has nothing to do with it, however. Firstly, the main unit is outside and downstairs (I am on the third and uppermost floor). The air is simply filtered up to my apartment and as I said, it is not on all day, but whenever it gets too warm. Secondly, there was no air conditioning or heating unit running in my apartment at all for two months, but her behavior did not change at all. Thirdly, my other, previously-feral cat does not behave in a similar manner.

I just do not get any general "frightened" vibes from Belle. She does not hide at all. She plays openly. She runs around. She lounges all over the place, legs splayed and belly exposed. She simply will not let me, or anyone else, near her without a chase and I'm at a loss as to how I could go about changing her mind about me.
 
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1CatOverTheLine

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Ah, yes, I remember reading about that in the past! I suspect that the air conditioner has nothing to do with it, however. Firstly, the main unit is outside and downstairs (I am on the third and uppermost floor). The air is simply filtered up to my apartment and as I said, it is not on all day, but whenever it gets too warm. Secondly, there was no air conditioning or heating unit running in my apartment at all for two months, but her behavior did not change at all. Thirdly, my other, previously-feral cat does not behave in a similar manner.

I just do not get any general "frightened" vibes from Belle. She does not hide at all. She plays openly. She runs around. She lounges all over the place, legs splayed and belly exposed. She simply will not let me, or anyone else, near her without a chase and I'm at a loss as to how I could go about changing her mind about me.
Ah well - just a consideration I thought worth posing a question about.

Belle's interactions with your Mother at her prior residence - were they equally reserved?  If not, could Belle be pining for Sloppy Doggie Kisses, or for some interaction which she's now missing?

When you do manage to pick her up, does she eventually resign herself to being held, or does she squirm and fight until released?

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nickirows

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Ah well - just a consideration I thought worth posing a question about.

Belle's interactions with your Mother at her prior residence - were they equally reserved?  If not, could Belle be pining for Sloppy Doggie Kisses, or for some interaction which she's now missing?

When you do manage to pick her up, does she eventually resign herself to being held, or does she squirm and fight until released?

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Equally reserved, I'm afraid. She spent most of her time in the living room (presumably since the dog could not get in, and none of us mere humans cared to go in there), coming out only to get to the laundry room which contained her food bowl and a litter box. My mom had (well, has) two other cats as well, so I'd theorize that Belle was missing some feline companionship, but as I said, she gets along swimmingly with my cat Missy... too swimmingly, I am tempted to say, since they play all night long and quite loudly, but I'm glad they get along so I'm not truly complaining.

As it is, her behavior towards humans hasn't changed since she moved to my apartment, no. It hasn't changed in 7 years now. She would not let us near her at my mom's house, nor did she approach us. My mom was a vet tech, so she tried various tactics to coax Belle into liking us, but eventually gave up and resigned herself to having a cat we could only look at.

When I do manage to pick her up, Belle resigns herself to being held... initially. She'll sit patiently while I brush her back, and almost seems to like it when I brush her belly. The moment I stop brushing her, however, you can see her tiny ears perk up as if she's sensed an opportunity to escape, and she'll make a run for it. Side note, she flips out if you try to brush anywhere near her butt; it's the only time she struggles with me.
 

1CatOverTheLine

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Equally reserved, I'm afraid. She spent most of her time in the living room (presumably since the dog could not get in, and none of us mere humans cared to go in there), coming out only to get to the laundry room which contained her food bowl and a litter box. My mom had (well, has) two other cats as well, so I'd theorize that Belle was missing some feline companionship, but as I said, she gets along swimmingly with my cat Missy... too swimmingly, I am tempted to say, since they play all night long and quite loudly, but I'm glad they get along so I'm not truly complaining.

As it is, her behavior towards humans hasn't changed since she moved to my apartment, no. It hasn't changed in 7 years now. She would not let us near her at my mom's house, nor did she approach us. My mom was a vet tech, so she tried various tactics to coax Belle into liking us, but eventually gave up and resigned herself to having a cat we could only look at.

When I do manage to pick her up, Belle resigns herself to being held... initially. She'll sit patiently while I brush her back, and almost seems to like it when I brush her belly. The moment I stop brushing her, however, you can see her tiny ears perk up as if she's sensed an opportunity to escape, and she'll make a run for it. Side note, she flips out if you try to brush anywhere near her butt; it's the only time she struggles with me.
Given that you've already noted approaching her at low profile, is it safe to presume that when you do manage to hold her, that rubbing noses, giving the impression of scent-marking her cheek with yours, and / or rubbing your chin against the top of her head either elicits no favourable responce or ends with an otherwise bored E.R. Attending taking pictures of your lacerations for his journal?

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nickirows

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Given that you've already noted approaching her at low profile, is it safe to presume that when you do manage to hold her, that rubbing noses, giving the impression of scent-marking her cheek with yours, and / or rubbing your chin against the top of her head either elicits no favourable responce or ends with an otherwise bored E.R. Attending taking pictures of your lacerations for his journal?

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Highly safe to presume, yes, haha. Touching her in any way is met with a leveled gaze of boredom at best and pure disdain at worst. Thankfully, she's never necessitated a trip to the E.R. -- she may hiss and put up a fuss but when push comes to shove, she's never even attempted to bite or scratch myself or anyone else (I love her for that. The other cat, Missy, if she knows I have intentions to cut her nails, will rain hell upon me and leave me looking like I shoved my arms up a lawn mower).
 

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Hello!  I'm so pleased that the cat attract litter did the job, at least you don't have her brown crap to deal with anymore.  Just her attitude crap, now.

I wonder about Persian cat personalities, every one I've ever come across has a certain lofty aloofness.  Is that just the Persians I've happened to meet or is that a character trait?  Did you say that Missy is a Persian also?  

I think that Belle's childhood has had a serious impact upon her relationships with humans.  I'm not sure that you will ever be close to her, but I'm sure we can come up with ways to make your lives more amenable to each other. 

Have you tried a Feliway diffuser plug, which emits friendly cat de-stressing pheromones?  Or catnip, valerian, and avena sativa (oat)?  I'd get all the cat drugs out, if I were you.  

I actually credit cats with the full gamut of human emotions, and many more besides.  I can imagine a cat feeling disdain, or a cat-particular emotion or personality trait akin to it.  I've mostly always met friendly cats but there has been the odd one that I've thought, "hmmm" about, in a way that's indescribale.  She sounds like a "hmmm" kinda cat, as you sound like a caring, considerate, and intelligent human to live with. 

So, I guess bribery and atmospheric drugs might be the way forward at this point particular point.  Does she have a cat tree?  
 

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Highly safe to presume, yes, haha. Touching her in any way is met with a leveled gaze of boredom at best and pure disdain at worst. Thankfully, she's never necessitated a trip to the E.R. -- she may hiss and put up a fuss but when push comes to shove, she's never even attempted to bite or scratch myself or anyone else (I love her for that. The other cat, Missy, if she knows I have intentions to cut her nails, will rain hell upon me and leave me looking like I shoved my arms up a lawn mower).
Not a fan of the, "pleasant, not smart," philosophy espoused by Elwood P. Dowd, eh?  No worries - I'm not smart enough to add that old Marlowe quote here at all events.

I've had only one cat who simply insisted that she was feral after a year's time.  She'd grown into a kinder gentler sort of fuzzy monster, but preferred her own company (or that of Missy, as Belle does).  I finally did the only thing I could think of - just picking her up and holding her - forcing my affections on her as it were.  The first time the result was a cross between the bored E.R. Attending and the lawnmower, but being one of those knives relegated to the junk drawer absent an honed edge, I persisted.  The second attempt more resembled a weed-whacker experience, and she calmed quite a little once she felt that her fleams claws had performed their task.  The third time was, with apologies to Windsor's Merry Wives, the charm. and we've been thick as coagulating blood thieves ever since.  YM - as the old adage goes - MV.

.
 

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I concur that forcibly foisting your affections on an unfriendly feline can certainly do the trick.  However, Belle's been living with nickirows for seven years.  I think she'd see this trick for what it is.  

Funnily enough, a cat fun box company just emailed me, and I thought you might all be interested:

https://poopycat.com/product-catego...205649613&mc_cid=dcb38180d4&mc_eid=275420a992

For extra bribery leverage.  
 

1CatOverTheLine

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I concur that forcibly foisting your affections on an unfriendly feline can certainly do the trick.  However, Belle's been living with nickirows for seven years.  I think she'd see this trick for what it is.  
It's quite possible, and a keen observation.  Aside from, "patience, patience," which seemed a bit ludicrous given all the years and miles that nickirows and Belle have put behind them "together" I'm as fresh out of ideas as I was when I just picked up White Tip and squeezed her like a lemon.  It's not a particularly sophisticated battle plan, I know - more like Leonidas than Xerxes at Thermopyæ, I'm afraid - and even given that, you might well be right regarding The Petulant Persian not giving in to it.

That said, I have promises to keep, and miles to go, despite a dearth of snow in the woods 'round these parts.

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nickirows

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Hello!  I'm so pleased that the cat attract litter did the job, at least you don't have her brown crap to deal with anymore.  Just her attitude crap, now.

I wonder about Persian cat personalities, every one I've ever come across has a certain lofty aloofness.  Is that just the Persians I've happened to meet or is that a character trait?  Did you say that Missy is a Persian also?  

I think that Belle's childhood has had a serious impact upon her relationships with humans.  I'm not sure that you will ever be close to her, but I'm sure we can come up with ways to make your lives more amenable to each other. 

Have you tried a Feliway diffuser plug, which emits friendly cat de-stressing pheromones?  Or catnip, valerian, and avena sativa (oat)?  I'd get all the cat drugs out, if I were you.  

I actually credit cats with the full gamut of human emotions, and many more besides.  I can imagine a cat feeling disdain, or a cat-particular emotion or personality trait akin to it.  I've mostly always met friendly cats but there has been the odd one that I've thought, "hmmm" about, in a way that's indescribale.  She sounds like a "hmmm" kinda cat, as you sound like a caring, considerate, and intelligent human to live with. 

So, I guess bribery and atmospheric drugs might be the way forward at this point particular point.  Does she have a cat tree?  
The brown crap was driving me bananas! Not to mention, it was almost always accompanied by its yellow cousin, which was far more irksome to clean up, haha.

I'm inclined to say it's a personality trait, though I've only ever met Belle and my mom's previous cat, Snowball (you can guess what color she was...) Snowball was friendly, but not a cuddler -- she simply wanted to be petted on her schedule and only on her schedule.

Belle's childhood no doubt had an impact, yes. My poor, emotionally-scarred fur-baby.

I have not tried a Feliway diffuser plug, mainly because based on my observations, she does not generally seem to be anxious, frightened, or aggressive. She already sleeps all day, out in the open, legs splayed and paws twitching as she dreams, no doubt, of murdering things. If she gets any calmer, she'll be comatose, haha... Which would help me brush her, I admit, but I feel like drugging my cat into oblivion is dancing on the line of morality :p I've tried catnip, which she adores, but it seems only stimulate her.

I'm personally thinking that behavior modification is the way forward, not atmospheric drugs (pity, for the drugs would be easier!).

And yes, these spoiled assholes have not one, but two cat trees for their enjoyment. Did either thank me for them? No. Did I deserve to be thanked? Absolutely. I dumpster dove for one of them (who throws away an expensive cat tree?) and bought the other one for cheap from a rather sketchy Chinese website -- giving them my credit card number was a calculated risk and I deserve all the thanks.
 

1CatOverTheLine

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Is The Petulant Persian a well-known phenomenon, then? 
No, no - not at all... I just felt it fitting to bestow upon Bells some alliterative honorific.  It seemed kinder than calling her, "that darn cat."  Besides, I believe that Hayley Mills and Dean Jones have that phrase sewn up tight.

.
 

1CatOverTheLine

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Belle's childhood no doubt had an impact, yes. My poor, emotionally-scarred fur-baby.
Don't discount it; look at how Lili Von Shtupp Marlene Dietrich turned out.
 
And yes, these spoiled assholes have not one, but two cat trees for their enjoyment. Did either thank me for them? No. Did I deserve to be thanked? Absolutely. I dumpster dove for one of them (who throws away an expensive cat tree?) and bought the other one for cheap from a rather sketchy Chinese website -- giving them my credit card number was a calculated risk and I deserve all the thanks.
Not even goin' there.  Nytol[emoji]174[/emoji].

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nickirows

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Not a fan of the, "pleasant, not smart," philosophy espoused by Elwood P. Dowd, eh?  No worries - I'm not smart enough to add that old Marlowe quote here at all events.

I've had only one cat who simply insisted that she was feral after a year's time.  She'd grown into a kinder gentler sort of fuzzy monster, but preferred her own company (or that of Missy, as Belle does).  I finally did the only thing I could think of - just picking her up and holding her - forcing my affections on her as it were.  The first time the result was a cross between the bored E.R. Attending and the lawnmower, but being one of those knives relegated to the junk drawer absent an honed edge, I persisted.  The second attempt more resembled a weed-whacker experience, and she calmed quite a little once she felt that her fleams claws had performed their task.  The third time was, with apologies to Windsor's Merry Wives, the charm. and we've been thick as coagulating blood thieves ever since.  YM - as the old adage goes - MV.

.
Alas, I'm not familiar with any philosophy but the ancients, and even that, I tended to nod off during. Pity my poor soul who was more interested in Twilight at the time. I've recovered since.

Your description of your Cuddling Journey with your cat makes me laugh! Your cat is very lucky that you persisted - though I am sure she doesn't show a speck of gratitude. How much time did you leave before picking her up, and how long did you hold her for? I've tried simply holding Belle and petting her for about ten minutes or so, only to watch her bath herself afterwards as if I dipped her in urine or something equally disgusting. She took her revenge by leaving me a disgusting hairball on the ground, which I can only describe as a tampon covered in gravy. When I tried to pick her up again, I was never met with improved respect, or even acceptance of her fate, but with a cat who was much more aware of what I intended to do and far more determined to get out of it this time.
 
I concur that forcibly foisting your affections on an unfriendly feline can certainly do the trick.  However, Belle's been living with nickirows for seven years.  I think she'd see this trick for what it is.  

Funnily enough, a cat fun box company just emailed me, and I thought you might all be interested:

https://poopycat.com/product-catego...205649613&mc_cid=dcb38180d4&mc_eid=275420a992

For extra bribery leverage.  
 Belle sees the trick. She has memorized the trick. She could draw the trick backwards in her sleep. She knows what I am doing, every time. My best bet for catching her is to wait until she has gone to sleep, then to put on my softest slippers so that I can sneak up on her and brutally kidnap her in her sleep... not really conducive to a healthy relationship, I suppose, though it works in 50 Shades...

As for bribery, I'm not inclined to get her any more large toys, haha. I live in a small studio apartment, courtesy of being a second degree student with nothing but loans to keep me aloft. I, personally, would love to get them this house and watch them play in it because I get so much joy from watching my cats play. But at best, it would only make Belle happy towards it, not me. At worst, my cats would do what they usually do and instead of playing with the new toy, they'd play with a ball of hair or a stray zip tie or some other piece of garbage that isn't the new, expensive thing I bought for them (typical cats, no?)
 
It's quite possible, and a keen observation.  Aside from, "patience, patience," which seemed a bit ludicrous given all the years and miles that nickirows and Belle have put behind them "together" I'm as fresh out of ideas as I was when I just picked up White Tip and squeezed her like a lemon.  It's not a particularly sophisticated battle plan, I know - more like Leonidas than Xerxes at Thermopyæ, I'm afraid - and even given that, you might well be right regarding The Petulant Persian not giving in to it.

That said, I have promises to keep, and miles to go, despite a dearth of snow in the woods 'round these parts.

.
I enjoyed your simile but if I recall correctly, Leonidas died. Which, frankly, is not that far from the realm of possibility. I am 100% certain that if I died today, Belle would gladly eat my body without a second thought. She knocked over a large mirror in the night once as well, which I believe was a subtle assassination attempt.

The Petulant Persian. I like that quite a lot. I'm going to share that with my mother, perhaps get it on a placard for Belle as a reminder of what she is, though she'd likely take pride in it.
 
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