Cat intros...should I keep separating when I hear growling?

chloe92us

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Hi all, I need your thoughts!

Cats:
Skye (resident cat), 3 YO purebred male ragdoll, neutered, 17 pounds. Lived with our other male cat until 6 months ago when he died @ 16 YO. Independent, not a cuddler, but always in the room with us and follows us around at all times, confident with new people and most situations.

Max (new adoptee), 4 YO male, neutered 8 weeks ago, 9 pounds. Pee doesn't stink so I think the hormones are gone. He is extremely affectionate with people, OK with our dogs, and loves to cuddle. He is a little anxious and runs under the bed with new noises, etc.

We picked Max strictly because of his personality. Our cat that died this year was the sweetest, most laid back, easy going cat we have ever had, and we were trying to find a similar cat and Max fit the bill.

Week 1: total isolation in safe room. Followed intro protocol to a T after lots of research; scent and room swapping all went fine. Toward the end of the week, they saw each other through the door crack and under door. Both ate without issue on sides of door. Fed lots of treats. There was slight hissing from Skye occasionally. Feliway diffuser in place.

Week 2: they met in person. Skye hissed and growled but no other signs of aggression. Max just lays down and let's Skye come up to him. Skye does occasionally approach him boldly; walks confidently right up to him as if to say "I'm the boss here", they sniff noses and he walks away. Max just looks away and lays down. They are eating together and comfortably hanging out in the same room for the most part. Then Max went to the vet, and things got a little dicey.

Week 3 (now). The cats are out together when we're home but still sleep apart and apart while at work. They appear to get along for the most part, but Skye is becoming occasionally aggressive, but there have been no fights...yet. Skye approaches Max with ears back and slinking and growling. This happens randomly. They eat together fine, hang out in same room fine. One place I have seen it happen a few times is Skye appears to be guarding the "cat room" which has 2 litter boxes and food bowls. He lays in the doorway but Max goes on in! Then Skye will block him from leaving. This morning, Skye walked up to Max while he was just laying in the middle of our bedroom floor, ears back and growling. He is easy to distract, though, I just stand in between them and he walks off. This is happening a few times a day. 20 minutes later, they are laying 5 feet apart grooming themselves.

I thought we had an end to this a few nights ago. Skye corned Max in the bathroom and walked up to him in his usually way and Max slapped him in the face. After that, Max seemed to be a lot more confident and Skye seemed stunned. Things were perfect for a day, and now we are back to this posturing/growling/ears back thing.

I am scared to let them work it out, because I have never had any of our cats fight in all the 20+ years we've had cats! Should we take a few steps back, or is this normal? Will he calm down? Should I just let them work it out? My gut tells me that Skye won't actually attack him, but the ears and growling are making me second guess that. He is easy to distract though.

That picture is typical of them hanging out when not having an episode.

Thoughts?
 
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foxden

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chloe92us chloe92us
You have two gorgeous kitties.
That behavior sounds fairly normal. Since Max is using the litterbox and isn't letting Skye intimidate him, I'd let it go awhile. Swats at each other are OK. They are just trying to establish who is top cat. When we have brought in a new cat, we use a fairly loose definition of fighting. If they swat without claws and nobody has a bloody spot showing -- we leave them alone. They might never be best buddies. We also judge based on "chasing". If the cats are taking turns chasing one another, we see that as a good thing.
I have not had a ragdoll kitty, so I don't know his purrsonality.
The fact that they chill out near each other is a good sign that they tolerate each other and are working on their relationship.
Neither kitty looks stressed in the picture. If there was a problem, I'd expect one to be hiding and not cohabiting nearby space.
I think they've got a good start.
 

calicosrspecial

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I agree with Foxden, it is pretty normal and there are a lot of good signs to suggest things will be fine.

If possible anytime  there could be a negative confrontation I would try to distract. Play, food, calling a name. Anything to distract. Anytime there isn't a confrontation it is a positive in them knowing that the other cat is not a risk.

I have found it is typically the resident cat that has the adjust issue. I like to build the confidence of both cats as cats that are confident are less likely to attack or be attacked.

We build confidence through play, food, height and love. I would suggest stepping up play with both cats and after play feed either treats or a meal. Keep feeding them near each other to associate each other with good things. Encourage them to go high on cat trees. And finally let them each know they are loved. If you can't get them to be comfortable and purr with the other cat around without putting yourself at risk of being injured it could help them associate the other cat with good things.

I would also consider adding some litter boxes if possible so there aren't any bottlenecks.

And always try to be as calm and confident around them as possible.

Just keep building their confidence and associating the other cat with good things and try to limit any negative encounters. And let Skye know he is loved.

Watch for any change in behavior, the way they walk, how they carry their tail, if they are going low or hiding.

There are always ups and downs and we want to try to limit the depths of any downs. So please be vigilant that one cat does not lose confidence.

But I think they will be fine, they need to work things out and feel secure the other cat will not hurt them or limit access to food etc. Once they do they should get along well. A lot of good signs so far.

We'll be here if you need us. Keep up the good work.
 
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chloe92us

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They just got in a fight. Skye walked up to Max with ears back, and as I walked in the room he jumped on top of Max. One of them screamed, but I don't see any fur or scratches or blood. I clapped and they separated. :(. Max is now in my bedroom and Skye is in the house.

They got in a fight while we were assembling a new cat tree and setting up 2 more litter boxes (for a total of 5 boxes in 2 different rooms).
 
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calicosrspecial

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I am sorry to hear this. 

Do you know what exactly happened before the attack? What were they doing? Did Skye just lock on Max and then attack? Was it in a hallway or a constrained area of the house?

How did they act after the fight? Did anyone hide? Walk around lower to the ground or tail down?If they were resilient it isn't too bad. If there was a change in their confidence we need to work on them more.

Any change in eating habits, friendliness etc?

Skye is definitely feeling a bit uneasy. It could just be that they got together a bit too quickly.

There are a lot of good signs but we don't want to lose the positives at this point. Is it possible to watch them closely when they are together? And try to avoid any conflict while doing positive associations? Distracting them when one of them is focused on the other? Depending on the answers about how they acted after the fight this might be a good option.

The second option would be to pull back a bit and do a reintroduction. I hate to take territory away but since they are spending time away from each other (when at work and at night sleeping) we may want to consider limiting their time together right now. And doing positive associations (food, scent swapping, etc). And work to build Skye's confidence during the separation.

We definitely do not want to take many steps back on how they interact since they seem to do pretty well. But I have seen false positives in early introductions. Something that would encourage us to strongly consider option 2 from above.

Please let me know the answers to the above questions and we'll figure out the best route going forward.

Hang in there, I still have no doubt they will get along. 
 

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They just got in a fight. Skye walked up to Max with ears back, and as I walked in the room he jumped on top of Max. One of them screamed, but I don't see any fur or scratches or blood. I clapped and they separated.
. Max is now in my bedroom and Skye is in the house.

They got in a fight while we were assembling a new cat tree and setting up 2 more litter boxes (for a total of 5 boxes in 2 different rooms).
I just put a small cat tree together yesterday and all 4 of my cats were in hyper drive. I suggest there was some overstimulation.
 
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chloe92us

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Thanks for your suggestions everyone! To answer your questions, I'm not sure what they were doing just before the "roll". I walked in just as Skye pounced. They were next to my sliding glass door in the bedroom, but in the middle of the wall if that makes sense. Not in a corner, anyway. After the fact, they were both fine. No hissing, nothing. They seemed surprised, to be honest. As soon as I clapped, they ran in different directions. But....most of this ear back/growling in Max's face thing I have seen, typically happens in a hallway or if Skye has cornered him.

To be safe, we put Max back in his room for the night and hubby slept with him. This morning, when Max saw Skye he showed no sign of fear or anything. No hisses from Skye either. It's like nothing happened today. I separated them while at work.

After hanging out with them tonight (hovering), Skye actually seems to be trying to play but Max isn't sure how to take it. For example, Skye walked up behind him after they were eating and gave him a little "love bite" on the butt. Skye just kind of looked at him and then sat down. A few minutes later, Skye was by his tube, and Max went and peeked at him from the other end. Skye did the lifted butt wiggle, then dashed trough the tube and Max ran away.

It most definitely could have been overstimulation, too. We were playing with them for a while before the incident, and then putting the new cat tree together, etc.

I will still be very careful, because Skye did show that he has the potential to actually act out on his posturing, but I am feeling optimistic today.

BIG EDIT: cats were getting along great tonight. Then I got the laser out, and Max chased it and it set Skye off big time. Skye tried to corner him, then Max took off and Skye chased him and they had a little roll around again in the hall. I yelled and they split up. There was a little fur on the floor. They're separated again, but both are on either side of the door. Max is meowing to come out.
 
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calicosrspecial

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Hi,

I wonder if there was an animal outside of the sliding doors.

So glad that after the encounter they were fine and in the next morning they were fine. GREAT news.

It sounds like last night it was play. Still a little caution on their part but seems like they want to play.

We want to be careful that Max doesn't start acting like prey. We want to work on his confidence. We want him to play but not to act like prey. It is more art than science but we want him to hold his ground a bit, let Skye know it is play and not hunt time.

I am optimistic at this point too but now I read your additional BIG EDIT. I am guessing Skye got a little jealous. Maybe next time play with Skye, tire Skye out first then play with Max. Again let's watch how they act after. I like that Max was meowing to get out and not hiding.

I actually feel a lot better than I did after reading your prior post. We do have to watch it and try to make every interaction as positive as possible.

Skye could be letting Max know that Skye is the boss cat or Skye is just excited to have another pal. But we want to try to distract without an incident if at all possible. I now it is hard.

This is always the tricky part. As long as they are distracted quickly and they can be together for a lot of time it is great. It could just be overstimulation where Skye is like "let's go". I would step up play with Skye and get him tired out. A confident cat as well as a tired cat typically will not attack. Also, keep building Max's confidence as a confident cat is less likely to be bullied. And keep up with feeding together and associating each other with good things. And please watch their body language and how they act.

Please let me know if you have any questions and how things go. I do think this situation is very workable, I am not really worried but we need to remain vigilant. Keep up the good work. 
 
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chloe92us

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Hi,

I wonder if there was an animal outside of the sliding doors.
I wish it were that simple, but no....the door opens up to our huge screened lanai so there's no possibility of that.
 

calicosrspecial

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That is helpful to know. 

I am guessing overstimulation as well then.

Let's try what I mentioned and please let me know of any developments. Let's see what is working and what isn't and how they react. Again body language and how they react is very important.

I know you can get them to get along. There are a lot of positives. Hang in there.
 
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chloe92us

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Today was much better. No growling or stalking. Playing!!!! They chased toys together, hung on the cat tree together, and even laid together on the bed and played footsies. :clap:!

Back to optimistic!
 

calicosrspecial

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Chloe,

AWESOME!!!

There will be ups and downs but I think you are in a good place. Just keep up the good work. Associating them with good things etc.

We are here for you if you ever need us. Keep up the great work.
 
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chloe92us

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Back to discouraged. 

Max has decided that he likes the top tier of Skye's cat tree.  Even though I bought a new bigger cat tree for him, no....he wants Skye's spot.  It's like he's "egging him on".  Skye didn't like it one bit, and attempted to kick him off, but his cat tree isn't easy to navigate so he wasn't able to and Max didn't move.  This happened twice.  After dinner, we had staring contests and Skye chasing Max under the bed several times.  He caught Max once and they had a tumble.  There is NO more growling from Skye. 

Here's the deal, though....is this posturing or fighting?  There's no noise.  There is staring, stalking, chasing, and if they catch up while chasing....rolling...until I break it up, but I know without a doubt it is NOT playing.  I watch videos online of fights, and they are always so loud!  There's no noise going on aside from the occasional hiss once they're in the roll. 

How do cats work out the hierarchy of things once they've been introduced?  Max and Skye do try to play---they play footsies, and they take turns playing hide and seek in the guest room.  They still eat right next to each other without blinking.  So there are many good signs too!   i'm so confused.
 
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calicosrspecial

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Hang in there, it is normal. They are finding out where they stand. A bit of a power struggle.

As long as they are not actually fighting it is good. How did Max act after the rolling around and after going under the bed? Acting normal or hiding and slinking around?

If you see them stare then try to distract if possible with something good. We don't want Max to act like prey and to hide. It is more art than science but we want him to stand up a bit more (have more confidence) but not stand up and fight. Just to say "don't do it".

There are a lot of good signs. It just takes time for them to work it out. Please keep associating them with good things (especially food) and keep building their confidence.

What you are experiencing is pretty normal. We need to watch the chases and the rolling around as we don't want to go backwards but I think things are going as expected.
 
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chloe92us

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As long as they are not actually fighting it is good.

How did Max act after the rolling around and after going under the bed? Acting normal or hiding and slinking around?

If you see them stare then try to distract if possible with something good. We don't want Max to act like prey and to hide.

It is more art than science but we want him to stand up a bit more (have more confidence) but not stand up and fight. Just to say "don't do it".
Thank you once again!  You are helping me feel better, but of course I have more questions. 

What makes you say they aren't actually fighting?  Isn't chasing and jumping on, then rolling, fighting?  What would real fighting look like?

Max acted fine.  My husband walked in, picked him right up, and took him to the guest room where he cuddled him a bit. 

Max is only acting like prey when Skye actually is in high pursuit.  All other times, Max walks by him and even runs up to him.  It's almost like Max isn't getting the hint, or is purposely testing Skye.
 
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calicosrspecial

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You are welcome.

I probably should be more care in how I describe fighting. There is the disagreement fighting where they swat, jump on, roll around etc and there is "real" fighting where fur comes out, biting, blood. IN the first case they know where the line is and don't cross it, in the second case there is no line and it is survival. The first case is not too worrying though we don't want to see it, the second case is really worrying. Does that make sense?

GREAT that Max acted fine after the incident. That is really the key, how they act after these.

Max trusts Skye. He doesn't really fear him. Given that he "doesn't get the hint". That is great. We have a problem when Max starts fearing Skye, hiding, slinking around, etc. Glad we are not seeing that. 

Keep building their confidence, associating them with good things and letting them know they are loved. Feel free to distract them with play or food if they get a little "funny". We have to remain focused on them but I think all should be fine. I am not worried, there will be ups and downs but I think the end result should be fine. They are in good hands which helps a great deal. Keep up the good work.
 
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chloe92us

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Update: We have regressed to keeping Max in the guest side of the house, separated by a baby gate (which he tried to squeeze through today and got stuck)! Now I have cardboard woven in so hopefully that won't happen again.

They are fine when they eat, can hang out in a room together fine, play footsies through the baby gate, etc. But Skye will just get his pants in a wad and get in Max's face aggressively and meow like "beat it". A single, drawn out meow. It's the same meow I get when I pick him up when he doesn't want to be. And it's the same posturing that precludes a chase and roll. I am scared to leave them alone because these usually happen when we're not in the room and come in to "check" on them.

Everyone is saying this is normal, but I've had cats my whole life and we've never had so much as a slap in the past! I guess we've just been extremely lucky. Max is miserable contained. He wants out in the rest of the house so badly but I just don't trust Skye not to elevate his posturing to a full on fight if I'm not right there hovering to break it up before he gives chase and pounces, which happens almost every time we let them out together for a few hours. It's been 5 weeks since we brought Max home. Sigh.
 
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calicosrspecial

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Hang in there, 5 weeks is not a long time in introductions. And you are seeing a lot of positives.

I would like to understand more about how the chase and roll starts. How long into them being together does Skye take to go after Max? Do you know if Max provokes Skye? Stares, comes over to play, etc?

Any change in how they act after the chase and roll?

Please try to distract them if possible, with play or treats before the chase. I am guessing the Skye chase is more defensive than play. The more time they are together without incident the more accepting Skye will be.

Please keep trying to build their confidence.

It is normal what you are experiencing. Actually you are seeing better results than many people do. The resident cat usually feels the most insecure because it is their territory being "invaded". So it is understandable that Skye is still uneasy. There are always ups and downs.

Hang in there. Cats can take on our emotions so please try to be as calm and confident around them. 

The fact Max wants out tells me he can't be too afraid of Skye. We just have to try to limit any chases. Especially by distracting if possible and having them tired out if possible (a lot of play).

Intros are always tricky but I do think you are on a good path. The fact they can be together for a while is great. Let's keep trying to reinforce those positive meetings and limit the negative ones if possible.

You are doing a good job with them.
 
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chloe92us

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Skye locks on with a stare and then comes in directly for the aggressive in-his-face meow; I would definitely say it is more offensive than defensive. 

Examples; The other night, Max scratched on Skye's cat tree, and Skye ran over and got in his face, then a chase off.  Another time, Max was laying on the guest room bed (kind of now "his" territory), and Skye jumped up, walked confidently straight over to Max, got in his face (real close, like nose to nose) then did his stare down and meow.  It's like Skye just decides he doesn't like what Max is doing and wants him to move.  But when he moves, Skye chases him!  Sometimes he catches him too, because Max will suddenly stop.  Then they roll, someone hisses or meows, then we clap or yell, and they run off in different directions. If he doesn't catch him, Max runs directly under the bed.  Then I follow them in there and make Skye leave the room.  Max comes out from under the bed immediately once Skye leaves. 

The only thing "off" about Max is he has unusually large ears, and he tends to move them back and forth a lot.  They may be giving off the wrong signal, because I think he looks mean sometimes, even if he's relaxed or giving me head bumps to pet him.

I have been playing a lot more with both of them, trying to wear them out.  Last night they were out together for a few hours before they had a stare down on the bed.  But they are separated MOST of the time since we work and also keep them separate at night.
 
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