Sheba vs Taste of the Wild

dorimon · Feb 16, 2017

missmimz said:
Cats don't eat "by-products" in the wild. By-products are not simply organs, or parts of the animal that humans don't eat. They are defined by much more than that. They can and do include not only organs or other parts of animals, but rendered meats (aka animals that have died, sick, roadkill, or otherwise), meats that have been unrefrigerated or improperly handled or stored.

There are VERY loose standards for what is a by-product and what is allowed in pet foods. So don't assume that by-products are just heads and feet.

https://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/choosing-dog-food/animal-by-products/

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/rendered-products-in-pet-food/

The two webpages you cited discuss by-product meal, not by-products in general.

http://www.thecatsite.com/a/by-products-in-cat-food-5-facts-you-need-to-know

missmimz · Feb 16, 2017

dorimon said:
The two webpages you cited discuss by-product meal, not by-products in general.

http://www.thecatsite.com/a/by-products-in-cat-food-5-facts-you-need-to-know

We're talking about both. The reality is "by products" are very loose, undefined, and unregulated. If you want to believe that your cheap pet food doesn't contain rendered meats, that's your choice, but what evidence is available (and these large companies do whatever they can to cover it up) suggests there is a lot of gross unregulated, and unhealthy stuff in those by-products, and not just "meals" (which are, of course, worse).

http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...ck_livestock_dogs_and_cats_from_shelters.html

http://truthaboutpetfood.com/epa-document-proves-euthanized-dogs-and-cats-are-rendered/

https://www.cornucopia.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/DecodingPetFoodfullreport.pdf

dorimon · Feb 16, 2017

missmimz said:
We're talking about both. The reality is "by products" are very loose, undefined, and unregulated. If you want to believe that your cheap pet food doesn't contain rendered meats, that's your choice, but what evidence is available (and these large companies do whatever they can to cover it up) suggests there is a lot of gross unregulated, and unhealthy stuff in those by-products, and not just "meals" (which are, of course, worse).

http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...ck_livestock_dogs_and_cats_from_shelters.html

http://truthaboutpetfood.com/epa-document-proves-euthanized-dogs-and-cats-are-rendered/

https://www.cornucopia.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/DecodingPetFoodfullreport.pdf

I didn't read the last link yet (bookmarked for later), but "rendered" meat products refer to meat or by-product meals.

Most pet food companies do exist to make a profit and cheap foods inevitably will have cheaper meat sources (you get what you pay for, after all). However, I don't think that most companies are blatantly lying about the ingredients in their products.

missmimz · Feb 16, 2017

dorimon said:
I didn't read the last link yet (bookmarked for later), but "rendered" meat products refer to meat or by-product meals.

Most pet food companies do exist to make a profit and cheap foods inevitably will have cheaper meat sources (you get what you pay for, after all). However, I don't think that most companies are blatantly lying about the ingredients in their products.

No, rendered meats are not just "meals," but they do include meals too. The last link explains it the most clearly. Well, that's your opinion, but testing from lower quality pet foods tell us otherwise. I think it's pretty clear that large companies, and the government, have a pretty strong history of lying to cover up incompetence and cutting corners to make more money. If you haven't, you should watch Pet Fooled, too. In fact, in the Cornucopia study there's a quote from the CEO of Merrick in a letter he wrote to the FDA defending the use of euthanized/dead animals in pet foods.

dorimon · Feb 16, 2017

missmimz said:
No, rendered meats are not just "meals," but they do include meals too. The last link explains it the most clearly. Well, that's your opinion, but testing from lower quality pet foods tell us otherwise. I think it's pretty clear that large companies, and the government, have a pretty strong history of lying to cover up incompetence and cutting corners to make more money. If you haven't, you should watch Pet Fooled, too. In fact, in the Cornucopia study there's a quote from the CEO of Merrick in a letter he wrote to the FDA defending the use of euthanized/dead animals in pet foods.

I did watch Pet Fooled and encourage everyone to watch it

I agree that pet food companies often do not share consumers' best interests, but not all is bad. The same with the government. I work in education, and believe me... there are a lot of happenings that make me lose faith in government, every day. But we have government for a reason. Pet food companies also exist for a reason -- not everyone wants or has time to make their own pet food.

The world isn't so black-and-white. There are varying degrees of "good" and "bad." Everyone also has to do the best with what they have. So, I think it is important for everyone to do their own research, form their own opinions, and do what they think is best. I would not blindly trust pet food companies -- they need to be held accountable. However, there are many cats and dogs that live long, healthy, happy lives eating "cheap" foods.

Also... I know Wikipedia isn't always the most credible source, but:

The rendering process simultaneously dries the material and separates the fat from the bone and protein. A rendering process yields a fat commodity (yellow grease, choice white grease, bleachable fancy tallow, etc.) and a protein meal (meat and bone meal, poultry byproduct meal, etc.).

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendering_(animal_products))

I'll read the last link later today.

dorimon · Feb 16, 2017

@missmimz, the Cornucopia report was a really good read! Thanks for sharing that.

I do want to point out that they discuss rendered meat by-products specifically though, which -- you are right -- are not just labeled as "meal." However, they do list the names of the resulting ingredients to avoid on page 12:

Rendered Meat Byproducts

Livestock that are dead, diseased, disabled, or dying (the four Ds) are often rendered and used in pet food. Rendering is a process that simultaneously dries whole animal tissue and separates the fat from the bone and protein. The resulting byproducts, to be avoided in your pet food, are listed in the ingredient label as meat and bone meal (MBM), animal fat, animal digest, and/or blood meal.

Pet food manufacturers don’t advertise the fact that pet food is composed primarily of food industry waste, which is not problematic in itself. However, animal fat and MBM not specified as belonging to a particular animal species are low-quality pet food ingredients. They are also often products of rendering a mix of different animal species, some which did not die by slaughter. Potentially harmful ingredients in rendered MBM include expired grocery store meat, animals that died of unknown causes on the farm, and restaurant scraps, including used grease from deep-fat fryers.

In addition, animal fat and MBM are the ingredients in pet food most likely to correlate with the presence of sodium pentobarbital, the drug used by veterinarians and shelters for euthanasia. These ingredients may contain fungal and bacterial toxins, pathogens that are not destroyed in the rendering process (such as prions), and carcinogenic free radicals commonly found in used oil.

While funneling food industry waste into pet food provides one solution to major environmental contamination, surely there must be better ways to recycle these potentially harmful waste products than feeding them to our pets. Meat and bone meal should be avoided when shopping for pet food. Instead, look for meals from a specific animal species to avoid these issues.

(From https://www.cornucopia.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/DecodingPetFoodfullreport.pdf)

The report actually suggests looking for meals from a specific animal. However, I avoid all rendered meats and by-products, named or unnamed. I have some doubts about the nutritional value of meats and by-products that have gone through the rendering process since it is all exposed to extremely high heat.

missmimz · Feb 16, 2017

dorimon said:
@missmimz, the Cornucopia report was a really good read! Thanks for sharing that.

I do want to point out that they discuss rendered meat by-products specifically though, which -- you are right -- are not just labeled as "meal." However, they do list the names of the resulting ingredients to avoid on page 12:

The report actually suggests looking for meals from a specific animal. However, I avoid all rendered meats and by-products, named or unnamed. I have some doubts about the nutritional value of meats and by-products that have gone through the rendering process since it is all exposed to extremely high heat.

It's always worth thinking about the possible sources where these meats are coming from, especially when we're talking about lower quality pet foods from large companies that are not open about where they source from.

dorimon · Feb 16, 2017

missmimz said:
It's always worth thinking about the possible sources where these meats are coming from, especially when we're talking about lower quality pet foods from large companies that are not open about where they source from.

Oh, definitely! But I think this holds true for all pet food companies, not just those that produce the more affordable products. And, really... the human food industry is better regulated but has similar problems. Businesses exist to generate money, and there are people who will cut corners and/or put others' well-being at risk in order to increase their profits.

My point was just that by-products are not necessarily bad, and it's important to understand what the information on the label means. Every commercial product is going to have its flaws/shortcomings. The only way to have complete control is to make the food yourself, and home-made pet food is not a viable option for everyone.

missmimz · Feb 16, 2017

dorimon said:
Oh, definitely! But I think this holds true for all pet food companies, not just those that produce the more affordable products. And, really... the human food industry is better regulated but has similar problems. Businesses exist to generate money, and there are people who will cut corners and/or put others' well-being at risk in order to increase their profits.

My point was just that by-products are not necessarily bad, and it's important to understand what the information on the label means. Every commercial product is going to have its flaws/shortcomings. The only way to have complete control is to make the food yourself, and home-made pet food is not a viable option for everyone.

This might help give you some more info on how pet food regulation works in terms of by-products, because as this convo started, rendered meats are not just in meals, they can be in just by-products, too. The problem really is that we don't know what "by products" really means in terms of what's in it. Of course they're not just organs or other parts of animals. If that was the case they'd simply list the parts, and we'd all be happy with that because that's a great thing for cats.

"Until the day arrives that pet food consumers sue the FDA forcing them to enforce law (and we will!), be aware that any pet food – regardless of price – containing one of the following ingredients could contain diseased animal material, non-slaughtered dead animal material, euthanized animal material, and/or decomposing animal material (all of these pet food ingredients DO NOT have the requirement to being sourced from a slaughtered animal)…

Chicken by products, Chicken by-product meal, Turkey by-products, Turkey by-product meal, Meat Meal, Beef Meal, Lamb Meal, Venison Meal, Meat and Bone Meal, Animal Fat and Animal Digest."

http://truthaboutpetfood.com/fda-admits-some-pet-food-sourced-from-diseased-animals/

ashekitty · Feb 16, 2017

I would still say though if it's between plant based protein and by-products, I would go with the by-products. That's what I have taken away from my research anyway.

ashekitty · Feb 16, 2017

I have also read that USDA inspected facilities that make cat foods that contain by-products don't have diseased animals in them or hair or stuff like that. You can call the help line of the cat food company and ask if their facilities are USDA inspected.

dorimon · Feb 17, 2017

missmimz said:
This might help give you some more info on how pet food regulation works in terms of by-products, because as this convo started, rendered meats are not just in meals, they can be in just by-products, too. The problem really is that we don't know what "by products" really means in terms of what's in it. Of course they're not just organs or other parts of animals. If that was the case they'd simply list the parts, and we'd all be happy with that because that's a great thing for cats.

"Until the day arrives that pet food consumers sue the FDA forcing them to enforce law (and we will!), be aware that any pet food – regardless of price – containing one of the following ingredients could contain diseased animal material, non-slaughtered dead animal material, euthanized animal material, and/or decomposing animal material (all of these pet food ingredients DO NOT have the requirement to being sourced from a slaughtered animal)…

Chicken by products, Chicken by-product meal, Turkey by-products, Turkey by-product meal, Meat Meal, Beef Meal, Lamb Meal, Venison Meal, Meat and Bone Meal, Animal Fat and Animal Digest."

http://truthaboutpetfood.com/fda-admits-some-pet-food-sourced-from-diseased-animals/

The statement issued by the FDA is as follows:

“Processed pet food, including pet food consisting of material from diseased animals or animals which have died otherwise than by slaughter, goes through a kill step, such as heat processing, which is designed to kill harmful bacteria.”

This sounds like rendering. If a meat or meat by-product is rendered, it must be listed as such on the ingredients label.

https://www.thespruce.com/aafco-definition-meat-by-products-554424

Definition: Meat By-Products are parts of slaughtered animals, not including meat (please note: no muscle meat included). Included are lungs, spleen, kidneys, brain, liver, blood, bone, partially defatted low-temperature fatty tissue, and stomach and intestines freed of their contents.

What AAFCO doesn't mention is that meat byproducts may also legally contain: "4D animals (dead, dying, diseased, down), road kill, euthanized cats and dogs, including their collars. These source products are rendered, the fat is siphoned off to be used as "animal fat," and the remaining material is extruded to form "meat by-product meal.

http://www.aafco.org/Consumers/What-is-in-Pet-Food

“Meat by-products is the non-rendered, clean parts, other than meat, derived from slaughtered mammals. It includes, but is not limited to, lungs, spleen, kidneys, brain, livers, blood, bone, partially de-fatted low temperature fatty tissue, and stomachs and intestines freed of their contents. It does not include hair, horns, teeth and hoofs. It shall be suitable for use in animal feed. If it bears a name descriptive of its kind, it must correspond thereto.”

To put it another way, it is most of the parts of the animal other than the muscle tissue, including the internal organs and bones. It includes some of the parts people eat (such as livers, kidneys and tripe), but also parts that are not typically consumed by humans in the US. Some by-products, like udders and lungs are not deemed "edible" by USDA for human consumption, but they can be perfectly safe and nutritious for animals not inclined to be swayed by the unappealing nature of these parts of animals. As with "meat," unless the by-products are derived from cattle, pigs, sheep or goats, the species must be identified.

...

“Poultry By-Products must consist of non-rendered clean parts of carcasses of slaughtered poultry such as heads, feet, viscera, free from fecal content and foreign matter except in such trace amounts as might occur unavoidably in good factory practice. If the product bears a name descriptive of its kind, it must correspond thereto.”

Similar to "meat by-products," it is most of the parts of the bird that would not be part of a raw, dressed whole carcass. That may include the giblets (heart, gizzard and liver) but also other internal organs, heads and feet.

...

The following materials are all rendered products that have been subject to cooking to destroy any harmful bacteria before they are shipped to a pet food manufacturing plant. Rendering is a process where the materials are subject to heat and pressure, removing most of the water and fat and leaving primarily protein and minerals. You will notice that the term “meal” is used in all cases; because, in addition to cooking, the products are ground to form uniform sized particles.

“Meat Meal is the rendered product from mammal tissues, exclusive of any added blood, hair, hoof, horn, hide trimmings, manure, stomach and rumen contents except in such amounts as may occur unavoidably in good processing practices. It shall not contain extraneous materials not provided for by this definition. …. {the definition goes on to include the required mineral specifications and required nutrient guarantees}….. If the product bears a name descriptive of its kind, composition or origin it must correspond thereto.”

The rendering process is designed to destroy disease-causing bacteria, leaving an ingredient high in protein that while unappetizing to people appeals to the carnivore's palate. Unlike "meat" and "meat by-products," this ingredient may be from mammals other than cattle, pigs, sheep or goats without further description. However, a manufacturer may designate a species if appropriate (such as "beef meal" if only from cattle).

“Meat and Bone Meal is the rendered product from mammal tissues, including bone, exclusive of any added blood, hair, hoof, horn, hide trimmings, manure, stomach and rumen contents except in such amounts as may occur unavoidably in good processing practices. It shall not contain extraneous materials not provided for by this definition. …. {the definition goes on to include the required mineral specifications and required nutrient guarantees}….. If the product bears a name descriptive of its kind, composition or origin it must correspond thereto.”

Similar to "meat meal," but can include added bone in addition to what is normally found in whole carcasses.

“Animal By-Product Meal is the rendered product from mammal tissues, exclusive of any added hair, hoof, horn, hide trimmings, manure, stomach and rumen contents except in such amounts as may occur unavoidably in good processing practices. It shall not contain extraneous materials not provided for by this definition. This ingredient definition is intended to cover those individual rendered animal tissues that cannot meet the criteria as set forth elsewhere in this section. This ingredient is not intended to be used to label a mixture of animal tissue products.”

May consist of whole carcasses, but often includes by-products in excess of what would normally be found in "meat meal" and "meat and bone meal."

“Poultry By-Product Meal consists of the ground, rendered clean parts of the carcasses of slaughtered poultry such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs and intestines, exclusive of feathers except in such amounts as might occur unavoidably in good processing practices.….{the definition goes on to include the required mineral specifications and required nutrient guarantees}….. If the product bears a name descriptive of its kind, it must correspond thereto.”

Essentially the same as "poultry by-products," but in rendered form so most of the water and fat has been removed to make a concentrated protein/mineral ingredient.

“Poultry Meal is the dry rendered product from a combination of clean flesh and skin with or without accompanying bone, derived from the parts or whole carcasses of poultry or a combination thereof, exclusive of feathers, heads, feet and entrails. It shall be suitable for use in animal food. If it bears a name descriptive of its kind, it must correspond thereto.”

Basically the same as "poultry," but in rendered form, so most of the water and fat has been removed to make a concentrated protein/mineral ingredient.

dorimon · Feb 17, 2017

Ashekitty said:
I would still say though if it's between plant based protein and by-products, I would go with the by-products. That's what I have taken away from my research anyway.

Yes, I totally agree with you on this! Cats don't need veggies, they need meat!

missmimz · Feb 17, 2017

dorimon said:
The statement issued by the FDA is as follows:

This sounds like rendering. If a meat or meat by-product is rendered, it must be listed as such on the ingredients label.

https://www.thespruce.com/aafco-definition-meat-by-products-554424

http://www.aafco.org/Consumers/What-is-in-Pet-Food

I know what the AAFCO guidelines say, but the problem is enforcement. The FDA says euthanized animals aren't allowed in pet food, but tests are showing otherwise. As Susan at TAPF notes there are major issues within both the AAFCO and FDA in terms of enforcing and following guidelines, in addition there are major loopholes, which is why she says to be wearing of any by-products, and she suggests that even just by-products (not just meals) may contain both contaminates and rendered or euthanized animals based on testing of these foods. Ultimately, the goal should be to feed your cat the highest quality meat you can afford, and if you use lower end foods with by-products try and rotate with some higher end foods.

I also want to point out that I'm citing Susan because she has done extensive research and interaction with both AAFCO and FDA in terms of what exactly is in pet foods and lobbying for more transparency around what goes into our pets foods. I don't necessarily agree with her opinions on other things, but in terms of the issues around both AAFCO and the FDA, she knows what she's talking about.

ashekitty · Feb 17, 2017

@missmimz
Can you recommend me some higher quality canned foods to mix in with Sheba once in a while? Thanks.

dorimon · Feb 17, 2017

missmimz said:
I know what the AAFCO guidelines say, but the problem is enforcement. The FDA says euthanized animals aren't allowed in pet food, but tests are showing otherwise. As Susan at TAPF notes there are major issues within both the AAFCO and FDA in terms of enforcing and following guidelines, in addition there are major loopholes, which is why she says to be wearing of any by-products, and she suggests that even just by-products (not just meals) may contain both contaminates and rendered or euthanized animals based on testing of these foods. Ultimately, the goal should be to feed your cat the highest quality meat you can afford, and if you use lower end foods with by-products try and rotate with some higher end foods.

I also want to point out that I'm citing Susan because she has done extensive research and interaction with both AAFCO and FDA in terms of what exactly is in pet foods and lobbying for more transparency around what goes into our pets foods. I don't necessarily agree with her opinions on other things, but in terms of the issues around both AAFCO and the FDA, she knows what she's talking about.

Ah, I see your point. I agree that the FDA doesn't do a good job enforcing the regulations... and AAFCO members who write the regulations have their own interests that often conflict with those of consumers. I also agree that we need more transparency into the pet food industry, and that Susan does a lot of great work there and is extremely knowledgeable.

Ultimately, though, the issue is not limited to the "lower end" foods and by-products. Rendered ingredients could be present in any food, but we have to do the best we can with the information that we have.

And if a person can't afford the expensive foods, there is nothing wrong with just feeding the more affordable brands. We all just want do the best that we can for our beloved kitties

dorimon · Feb 17, 2017

Ashekitty said:
Can you recommend me some higher quality canned foods to mix in with Sheba once in a while? Thanks.

I personally wouldn't feed some of these foods and there are also several foods I'm okay with that didn't make the list, but this list is a good place to start: http://www.naturalcatcareblog.com/2010/12/the-7-best-natural-commercial-cat-foods-so-far/

Many people here have their own lists of acceptable foods that are based on their own kitties' preferences/needs, budget, must-avoid ingredients, etc.

ashekitty · Feb 17, 2017

dorimon said:
I personally wouldn't feed some of these foods and there are also several foods I'm okay with that didn't make the list, but this list is a good place to start: http://www.naturalcatcareblog.com/2010/12/the-7-best-natural-commercial-cat-foods-so-far/

Many people here have their own lists of acceptable foods that are based on their own kitties' preferences/needs, budget, must-avoid ingredients, etc.

Thank you!! I will look into this.

dorimon · Feb 17, 2017

Ashekitty said:
Thank you!! I will look into this.

Happy to help. It's great that you are researching different options for your kitty!

I also just want to mention that Dr. Pierson (CatInfo.org) says to "try not to drive yourself nuts when picking out a canned cat food. The fact that you are feeding canned food and not dry food is 90% of the battle so just do the best that you can ..."

She also details how you might go about comparing different commercial foods: http://catinfo.org/commercial-cat-foods/

I personally feed both Sheba and Fancy Feast Classic, along with some more expensive brands.

ashekitty · Feb 17, 2017

dorimon said:
Happy to help. It's great that you are researching different options for your kitty!

I also just want to mention that Dr. Pierson (CatInfo.org) says to "try not to drive yourself nuts when picking out a canned cat food. The fact that you are feeding canned food and not dry food is 90% of the battle so just do the best that you can ..."

She also details how you might go about comparing different commercial foods: http://catinfo.org/commercial-cat-foods/

I personally feed both Sheba and Fancy Feast Classic, along with some more expensive brands.

Thank you! I have read catinfo.org, it's brilliant.

Sheba vs Taste of the Wild

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