Changes coming re: Tiki Cat Gourmet Carnivore

lisamarie12 · Mar 10, 2017

cheeser said:
I dunno what's going on with Tiki Cat.

I'm not too thrilled about the liver and other organ meats in the new After Dark line, mostly because I was under the impression that it wasn't good for cats to have so much liver in their diet on a daily basis. Then again, maybe there's not enough to be concerned about.

As long as a food meets with / falls within range of AAFCO's nutrient requirements, the organ meat isn't an issue.

It could be a problem for cats that have CKD and require a lower phosphorus diet, organ meat raises the phosphorus levels. Hence those cats may do better with TC's formulas that don't have organ meat included.

Despite TC's change in formula and new additions, their food is still a far better option than most of the filler infused carby crap out there for cats.

cheeser · Mar 10, 2017

@Ashekitty, I just heard back from Tiki Pets, and they confirmed that After Dark is indeed replacing the Gourmet Carnivore product line. There will probably be some overlap as places like Chewy still have some Gourmet Carnivore in their inventory. But once it's gone, it's forever gone. *sniff*

cheeser · Mar 10, 2017

LisaMarie12 said:
As long as a food meets with / falls within range of AAFCO's nutrient requirements, the organ meat isn't an issue.

It could be a problem for cats that have CKD and require a lower phosphorus diet, organ meat raises the phosphorus levels. Hence those cats may do better with TC's formulas that don't have organ meat included.

Ah, okay. Thanks!

Buddy doesn't have any kidney problems, but does have a history of FLUTD, which is why we were so delighted with the Gourmet Carnivore. Maybe I'll feel better about this 'improvement' once more nutritional info becomes available and I can see some actual numbers. ;-)

ashekitty · Mar 10, 2017

cheeser said:
@Ashekitty
, I just heard back from Tiki Pets, and they confirmed that After Dark is indeed replacing the Gourmet Carnivore product line. There will probably be some overlap as places like Chewy still have some Gourmet Carnivore in their inventory. But once it's gone, it's forever gone. *sniff*

That's a bummer.

Atleast I don't feed it normally, but I feel bad for that cat parents that do! It is always hard finding a new food.

crica · Mar 13, 2017

at 20 bucks a case, with my 4 cats, that would be 600 bucks a month to feed them all 3 cans a day (170ish cals), and even then they would likely need another 2 cans between then all to get 200cals a day each

why is pate cat food so much more calorie dense? i feed sheba pate right now to all four cats, they are same weight cans and pack nearly 100 cals a can

cheeser · Mar 13, 2017

crica said:
at 20 bucks a case, with my 4 cats, that would be 600 bucks a month to feed them all 3 cans a day (170ish cals), and even then they would likely need another 2 cans between then all to get 200cals a day each

Whoa! That would be pricey!

So now the cost is higher, as well as the carbs (based on my humble and possibly flawed calculations). Don't you love progress?

crica · Mar 13, 2017

cheeser said:
Whoa! That would be pricey!

So now the cost is higher, as well as the carbs (based on my humble and possibly flawed calculations). Don't you love progress?

I get that sheba pate uses cheaper resources.

I want to know why there are more calories in the same weight can of sheba pate then there are of tiki cat chicken after dark.

what foods are causing the increase of cals per can of sheba pate?

cheeser · Mar 13, 2017

crica said:
I get that sheba pate uses cheaper resources.

I want to know why there are more calories in the same weight can of sheba pate then there are of tiki cat chicken after dark.

what foods are causing the increase of cals per can of sheba pate?

I think I remember reading at catinfo.org some time ago that cheaper foods tend to be higher in fat, which makes them higher in calories. Then again, I can barely remember where I put my keys half the time, so I could be mistaken.

dorimon · Mar 14, 2017

cheeser said:
I'm not too thrilled about the liver and other organ meats in the new After Dark line, mostly because I was under the impression that it wasn't good for cats to have so much liver in their diet on a daily basis. Then again, maybe there's not enough to be concerned about. You know, like how a can of pork and beans has that teeny-tiny sliver of pork that you practically need a microscope to see.

I personally don't think that the inclusion of organ meat is a bad change. If organ meats are not present, then they have to supplement the food in some other way to meet our kitties' dietary requirements.

LisaMarie12 said:
Despite TC's change in formula and new additions, their food is still a far better option than most of the filler infused carby crap out there for cats.

I agree. While I am kind of disappointed in some the changes, I will still feed Tiki Cat occasionally. The increase in cost per can and decrease in calories per can makes it too expensive to feed frequently though, at least in our household.

cheeser said:
I think I remember reading at catinfo.org some time ago that cheaper foods tend to be higher in fat, which makes them higher in calories. Then again, I can barely remember where I put my keys half the time, so I could be mistaken.

Dr. Pierson makes the following statement about dry food on her website:

"The low-carb dry foods are very high in fat and therefore are very calorie dense."

Dr. Pierson also states that:

"Protein is expensive. Fat is cheap. Therefore, low carb diets are usually high in fat."

So, it sort of makes sense that cheaper foods tend to be higher in fat. and therefore more calorie-dense.

crica · Mar 14, 2017

dorimon said:
I personally don't think that the inclusion of organ meat is a bad change. If organ meats are not present, then they have to supplement the food in some other way to meet our kitties' dietary requirements.

I agree. While I am kind of disappointed in some the changes, I will still feed Tiki Cat occasionally. The increase in cost per can and decrease in calories per can makes it too expensive to feed frequently though, at least in our household.

Dr. Pierson makes the following statement about dry food on her website:

"The low-carb dry foods are very high in fat and therefore are very calorie dense."

Dr. Pierson also states that:

"Protein is expensive. Fat is cheap. Therefore, low carb diets are usually high in fat."

So, it sort of makes sense that cheaper foods tend to be higher in fat. and therefore more calorie-dense.

Um, why is fat cheap? Doesn't it come from the same source as protein? Why would I have to pay more for the muscle of an animal then I do the fat of the same animal? Is it because of how it needs to be processed in order to be sold? Does it take more resources to process muscle then fat? I guess that would be a reason for fat to be cheaper.

Just spoke with tiki cat about after dark chicken and liver. they stated dry matter fat is 13% per can. if cats need 20% to 40% fat in their daily diets, which everything I have read suggests they do, would 3 1/2 cans of tiki cat after dark chicken and liver per day supply this requirement to a cat? my brain can't compute the answer! argh!

Also, if cats desperately need omegas that only come from fish, why is fish not a part of their diets in the wild? Wouldn't they die in the wild without eating fish? I am asking because there is no fish in the tiki cat chicken and liver, so i was wondering if i should add fish oil.

crica · Mar 14, 2017

cheeser said:
Whoa! That would be pricey!

So now the cost is higher, as well as the carbs (based on my humble and possibly flawed calculations). Don't you love progress?

Wait, what carbs? aren't carbs from grains, fruits, veggies, tubers, and sugars? I didn't see any of these on the ingredient list of tiki cat after dark chicken and liver.

cheeser · Mar 14, 2017

crica said:
Just spoke with tiki cat about after dark chicken and liver. they stated dry matter fat is 13% per can. if cats need 20% to 40% fat in their daily diets, which everything I have read suggests they do, would 3 1/2 cans of tiki cat after dark chicken and liver per day supply this requirement to a cat? my brain can't compute the answer! argh!

TikiPets was only able to provide me with the Guaranteed Analysis numbers at the time of my request so I could at least get a ballpark estimate re: the protein, fat, and carbs based on Dr. Pierson's formulas. I've only included the GA for the 2.8 oz. cans because...well, this is my first attempt at a table, and I thought I'd confuse myself even more if I also had to copy and paste the info for the 5.5 oz. cans.

Flavor	Crude Protein (min)	Crude Fat (min)	Crude Fiber (max)	Moisture (max)	Kcal/Kg	Kcal/Trea
Chicken & Quail	12%	2.4%	0.7%	82%	773.00	62.00
Chicken & Duck	13%	2.0%	0.7%	82%	804.00	64.00
Chicken & Lamb	13%	2.3%	0.6%	82%	806.00	65.00
Chicken & Beef	13.4%	2.4%	0.7%	81%	845.00	68.00
Chicken & Pork	13%	2.3%	0.6%	81%	827.00	66.00
Chicken	12%	2.2%	0.7%	83%	711.00	57.00

As you can see, the ash % isn't listed, so I don't know how much that's going to skew the calculations to get a rough estimate of the P/F/C. But the ash % wasn't listed for the Gourmet Carnivore either, and the numbers looked much better to me. Then again, did I mention that math isn't really my thing?

I think there's a link in a thread somewhere on this site for an online DMB calculator. I'll see if I can find it.

crica · Mar 14, 2017

cheeser said:
TikiPets was only able to provide me with the Guaranteed Analysis numbers at the time of my request so I could at least get a ballpark estimate re: the protein, fat, and carbs based on Dr. Pierson's formulas. I've only included the GA for the 2.8 oz. cans because...well, this is my first attempt at a table, and I thought I'd confuse myself even more if I also had to copy and paste the info for the 5.5 oz. cans.

Flavor Crude Protein (min) Crude Fat (min) Crude Fiber (max) Moisture (max) Kcal/Kg Kcal/Trea
Chicken & Quail 12% 2.4% 0.7% 82% 773.00 62.00
Chicken & Duck 13% 2.0% 0.7% 82% 804.00 64.00
Chicken & Lamb 13% 2.3% 0.6% 82% 806.00 65.00
Chicken & Beef 13.4% 2.4% 0.7% 81% 845.00 68.00
Chicken & Pork 13% 2.3% 0.6% 81% 827.00 66.00
Chicken 12% 2.2% 0.7% 83% 711.00 57.00

As you can see, the ash % isn't listed, so I don't know how much that's going to skew the calculations to get a rough estimate of the P/F/C. But the ash % wasn't listed for the Gourmet Carnivore either, and the numbers looked much better to me. Then again, did I mention that math isn't really my thing?

I think there's a link in a thread somewhere on this site for an online DMB calculator. I'll see if I can find it.

the carnivore added olive oil, which would def raise fat levels. after dark doesn't add any oils. i can add fish oil, but if cats dont eat fish in the wild, why would they need fish oil? is there another kind of fat i can add to make this a better food?

cheeser · Mar 14, 2017

@crica, I'm not really sure why there appears to be more carbs in the After Dark products vs. Gourmet Carnivore, assuming I crunched the numbers correctly. I think liver has some carbs, or at least some liver-based flavors from various brands we've tried before have often been a little higher in carbs than the flavors without. Hopefully someone far more knowledgeable than I will chime in. :-)

As for the fish oil, in our case we started giving our cat with FIV and FLUTD some krill oil to strengthen his immune system and reduce inflammation, as we thought Buddy could use all the help he can get.

Oh, and I found the post that included a link for a cat nutrition DMB calculator. I've just gotten in the habit of using these formulas to calculate protein, fat, and carb percentages once I got my spreadsheet set up. ;-)

cheeser · Mar 14, 2017

Oh, what the heck. I'm going to go ahead and order a case of After Dark when I place my next order with Chewy. It may be wonderful, and put all my irrational fears put to rest.

To be honest, I'm just scared of change. Buddy had been doing so well for the past couple of years, and we got stuck in that mode of 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it.' Guess I need to embrace making a few repairs. ;-)

crica · Mar 14, 2017

cheeser said:
Oh, what the heck. I'm going to go ahead and order a case of After Dark when I place my next order with Chewy. It may be wonderful, and put all my irrational fears put to rest.

To be honest, I'm just scared of change. Buddy had been doing so well for the past couple of years, and we got stuck in that mode of 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it.' Guess I need to embrace making a few repairs. ;-)

My cats poop is super stinky, and everything I have read about gums in cat food says nutrition is harder for their bodies to absorb when eating gums. That's why I am hoping they will eat tiki cat, it has no gums or bad carbs so i hope they remain healthier for longer and their poop will stop being so stinky because of them not being able to absorb everything from sheba pate. I just wish i knew if this is all true or not.

dorimon · Mar 15, 2017

crica said:
Just spoke with tiki cat about after dark chicken and liver. they stated dry matter fat is 13% per can. if cats need 20% to 40% fat in their daily diets, which everything I have read suggests they do, would 3 1/2 cans of tiki cat after dark chicken and liver per day supply this requirement to a cat? my brain can't compute the answer! argh!

Also, if cats desperately need omegas that only come from fish, why is fish not a part of their diets in the wild? Wouldn't they die in the wild without eating fish? I am asking because there is no fish in the tiki cat chicken and liver, so i was wondering if i should add fish oil.

You are comparing the Dry Matter Basis (DMB) percentage given by TIki Cat to the metabolizable energy (ME) / calorie percentage.

See Dr. Pierson's website for more information (http://catinfo.org/commercial-cat-foods/#Composition):

"One of the most confusing aspects of food evaluations involve the terms:

as fed (‘wet weight’)
dry matter basis (‘dry weight’)
metabolizable energy (ME) – calories that come from protein/fat/carbohydrate

The most accurate way to evaluate food is to consider the calories (ME) that come from the protein, fat, and carbohydrate fractions. This allows us to compare various diets without worrying about their different water (moisture) levels."

Dr. Pierson goes on to explain how to compute the calorie percentages (http://catinfo.org/commercial-cat-foods/#Calculating__Percentage_of_Carbohydrates

:

When calculating the percentage of calories derived from the proteins, fats and carbohydrates we use the figures of 3.5 calories contributed by every gram of carbohydrate. For every gram of protein, 3.5 calories are provided and for every gram of fat, 8.5 calories are added.

For these calculations, you don’t have to worry about converting the values to DMB since the water content does not matter when looking at the percent-of-calories issue. (You must stay consistent, however, by using all figures leaving the water in [as fed or “wet weight”], or using all figures taking the water out [DMB]) This is the nice thing about ‘percent calories’ values – you can compare canned and dry food and not worry about the vastly different moisture content of the two types of foods.

cheeser said:
As you can see, the ash % isn't listed, so I don't know how much that's going to skew the calculations to get a rough estimate of the P/F/C. But the ash % wasn't listed for the Gourmet Carnivore either, and the numbers looked much better to me. Then again, did I mention that math isn't really my thing?

The Gourmet Carnivore varieties all had guaranteed analysis ash percentages at around 1%. This information used to be listed here: http://tikipets.com/petropics-nutrition-facts/, but it seems like this page has since been taken down...

Thanks for sharing the table!

crica said:
My cats poop is super stinky, and everything I have read about gums in cat food says nutrition is harder for their bodies to absorb when eating gums. That's why I am hoping they will eat tiki cat, it has no gums or bad carbs so i hope they remain healthier for longer and their poop will stop being so stinky because of them not being able to absorb everything from sheba pate. I just wish i knew if this is all true or not.

Have you considered giving your kitties a probiotic? It is true that kitty poop will be less stinky if you feed more digestible foods, but some cats (like my Callie) just naturally have more... fragrant butts/poop. Try feeding a human-grade probiotic (http://www.rawfeedingforibdcats.org/probiotics-for-cats---why-and-which-ones.html).

Also, from your posts in this thread I understand that you are feeding your furbabies Sheba pates. This is a great food that is in our rotation as well! Are you feeding any other varieties as well? I'm a big proponent of having a variety of brands and proteins in a kitty's diet.

crica · Mar 15, 2017

anytime i rotate their diet, they get diarrhea, and two of my cats are 3 month old kittens who already had diarrhea because they were eating different food before I got them

their poop isn't just stinky, though, it's huge and barely formed, like if it had any more moisture, it wouldn't stay formed

and my cats used to play alot, now all of them dont do much

and every-time i read about gums it's always says gums prevent nutrients from being absorbed well and can cause very wet, big stinky poops as a result

all that stuff you put up about how to calculate fat, does that mean after dark is not enough fat, and do you know what kind of fat I could add?

some places say egg yolk, but if they get egg whites then a vitamin B can be destroyed

some places say butter or plain yogurt, but my cats wont eat it, grrr, why is this so complicated

how come so many foods exists if there is only one way to feed a cat?

here is the webpage you were looking for, they moved it here: http://www.tikipets.com/nutrition-facts/

also, if there are 711 kcal/kg how is it possible for there to be only 57 cals a can?

dorimon · Mar 15, 2017

crica said:
anytime i rotate their diet, they get diarrhea, and two of my cats are 3 month old kittens who already had diarrhea because they were eating different food before I got them

their poop isn't just stinky, though, it's huge and barely formed, like if it had any more moisture, it wouldn't stay formed

and my cats used to play alot, now all of them dont do much

Have you taken your kitties to see a vet? Chronic loose stool / diarrhea is not normal, and a decrease in energy/activity is also another indicator that there may be a medical issue.

I suggest reading this article: http://www.foodfurlife.com/my-cat-has-diarrhea---what-do-i-do.html

crica said:
all that stuff you put up about how to calculate fat, does that mean after dark is not enough fat, and do you know what kind of fat I could add?

Each gram of fat contributes more calories (~8.5) than a gram of protein or carbohydrates (~3.5). Therefore, the percentage of calories from fat is higher than the 13% DMB value. You don't need to add fat.

dorimon · Mar 15, 2017

crica said:
Also, if cats desperately need omegas that only come from fish, why is fish not a part of their diets in the wild? Wouldn't they die in the wild without eating fish? I am asking because there is no fish in the tiki cat chicken and liver, so i was wondering if i should add fish oil.

Fish are a good source of the Omega-3 oils that cats need. However, fish oil is not the only option: http://www.littlebigcat.com/nutrition/choosing-an-omega-3-oil-for-your-pet/

If you are feeding a commercially-available complete cat food, you don't need to worry about adding an Omega-3 supplement.

crica said:
Wait, what carbs? aren't carbs from grains, fruits, veggies, tubers, and sugars? I didn't see any of these on the ingredient list of tiki cat after dark chicken and liver.

"Almost all natural foods contain carbohydrates. The only food group which is free of carbohydrates is fats and oils. Even milk products contain carbohydrates, in the form of a sugar called lactose. Fish and meat have very low carbohydrates content."

[Source: Which foods do not contain carbohydrates? (EUFIC)] <-- This link appears to be broken now, and I can't find the new URL (if one exists).

Changes coming re: Tiki Cat Gourmet Carnivore

TCS Member

TCS Member

Thread starter

TCS Member

Thread starter

TCS Member

Skeptic

TCS Member

Thread starter

Skeptic

TCS Member

Thread starter

TCS Member

Skeptic

Skeptic

TCS Member

Thread starter

Skeptic

TCS Member

Thread starter

TCS Member

Thread starter

Skeptic

TCS Member

Skeptic

TCS Member

TCS Member