Help please! Unhelpful breeder?

sivyaleah · Feb 24, 2017

Primula said:
The adult cats are in pens?!!!!! Litter boxes full of feces?

Does anyone else thing these breeders should be reported for animal neglect?

Absolutely!

OMG how did I miss that the first time around.

mingsmongols · Feb 24, 2017

It's not unusual to have adults in large pens or kennels sometimes, especially when you have an outbreak in your cattery. Tica and CFA require appropriate cages or housing to be a cattery of excellence. That being said it shouldnt be all the time and their should be clear indications that the cats are being socialized, the litter box and area should be clean, and they should be active and interested in you and their breeder. Housing the kittens in a nursery cuts down on communicable diseases and is in general a good idea but they should still be socialized and show affection and interest in you and the breeder. What your describing is neglect, and if you get Kittens from her they won't have the personality your looking for.

posiepurrs · Feb 25, 2017

I am afraid that if you get a kitten from her, you will regret it. When I was breeding, my girls were kept in my bedroom when we had litters. Kittens were handled from day one. After having vaccines, they were allowed to be introduced to the rest of the clowder. The only time I used cages was to keep the kittens safe when not supervised (at night) or when a Mom has difficulty bonding with the kittens right after birth (happened once). If a cat gets sick and needs to be isolated, I have enough spare rooms that I can put them in. Every breeder has to work out their own set up but in my heart, I am not comfortable with caging them out side so they rarely get human contact. This seems more like livestock than a pet.

kskatt · Feb 25, 2017

My heart screams to take one, or more. But then, any time she makes a profit, she'll just keep abusing those poor cats and kittens. Yes, abuse, neglect ends with breeding and not making no effort to care for them. Life without contact is abuse. Please do report her to anyone who will listen. Search rescues in your area and get advice on who to report to. Good luck.
Yes, what you described is a sick kitten, and every kitten is exposed and will probably get sick also.

arouetta · Feb 26, 2017

Don't get one. Walk away. And then start calling shelters and animal rights groups (SPCA, Humane Society, local entities) to find out how to best report what you saw and who to talk to so that she can be charged with a crime. Maybe even declared a hoarder so all the cats are taken from her.

kskatt · Feb 26, 2017

Please keep us updated, our hearts break for you and every kitty in that woman's clutches. Let us support you and send prayers through every step.

StefanZ · Feb 27, 2017

Banzai said:
Hi all,

Just an update for anyone interested - I just got to go and visit the litter of eleven week old kittens, which do actually exist.

All the kittens were extremely shy, and once they were brought out of their cage (which I was surprised they were in), they spent my entire visit trying to hide anywhere they could. None of them were interested in me or even in the breeder, and they were very jumpy.

I'm aware that cats can be nervous of new people, and aren't always friendly 'on cue' but I stayed there a long while (four hours, having traveled a long way to get there) and nothing much changed. One of the kittens was eventually happy exploring the room, but she seemed very nervous of any human movement and didn't want to be held at all. The others simply hid whenever they were allowed to and also flinched any time there was human movement. I was able to pick one up and stroke her for a few minutes, but overall they all seemed far happier away from humans.
One kitten also looked like he might be a bit ill. Much smaller than the others, sneezed a few times while I was there, and had what looked like runny eyes - although maybe this was because they'd recently had their vaccinations?

Does anyone think their nervousness might be because they didn't grow up in the house? I found out that they were born and kept separately in a nursery until a week ago (age ten weeks), and I'm wondering if this means they haven't been well socialized. I had been under the impression that they had been exposed to people and human lifestyles, but it doesn't seem to be the case.
The breeder's adults (including mom and dad) are all outside in pens, both male and female. The litter boxes were full of feces. None of the cats or kittens seemed especially pleased to see her, either, with quite a few shying away from contact and one or two actually exhibiting fearful behavior (flinching, ears back).

I've never before experienced kittens that were so disinterested/nervy. I'm used to them being free to run inside the house with mom, shy to start with, and then coming out once they realize you're friend not foe.

Finally, I asked whether it would be best, when the time came, to take the kittens home via the vet to get it all over and done with, and the breeder recommended I wait four weeks after bringing them home before taking them to the vet. Is this normal?!?

As I'm really, really most concerned with happy healthy well socialized kittens, is my concern justified and was my original suspicion correct? The breeder was friendly so I'd be sad to back out especially after waiting for half a year, but I'm really not confident in what I saw - especially after getting next to no reassurance from the breeder's behavior up until now.

Any thoughts appreciated - thanks.

Ouch, really bad. Although I suspect not totally unique. And also one explanation, why some "breeders" of purebred cats sell them at 6 weeks. Not because they are BYB and dont care. but if they do have them in pens like this, unsocilaized, its of course the leser evil to sell them at 6 weeks. This way they will at least be socialized somewhat normally by normal, decent persons in a normal home milieu

Not raised up to shy semiferales at first, and socialized the difficult way afterwards.... Which is what happens here, with them kept in cages, and practically without human interaction...

Really bad.

Better you take a true semiferale from a rescue group. The same job, and you are doing "a deed to Gods pleasure" as the Swedish saying says (Gudi behaglig gärning) - instead of feeding a parasite.

banzai · Feb 27, 2017

After sleeping on it, I'm surprised I didn't condemn the breeder from the moment I stepped into the situation. I think, having waited for six months and being convinced I was talking to a responsible person who had happy healthy kittens waiting, I wasn't able to see what was in front of my eyes at first.

I happened to find the contact details of someone who had had kittens from this breeder previously, and they warned me off, confirming the fact that their cats had taken forever to calm down and appreciate human contact.

I of course am not proceeding, and will restart my search for an ethical breeder - this time visiting before kittens are even in the equation so I know exactly what I'm dealing with (and so the breeder is happy with me also).

I am trying to find the best way of reporting what I found to make sure it isn't allowed to continue.

Thanks all for your support and advice. Hopefully at some point soon I'll be able to share happier news!

Primula · Feb 27, 2017

posiepurrs said:
I am not comfortable with caging them out side so they rarely get human contact. This seems more like livestock than a pet.

Anyone who cages adult cats should be forced into a cage for an equivalent length of time to see how horrible it is.

basscat · Feb 27, 2017

mollyblue · Feb 27, 2017

Banzai said:
After sleeping on it, I'm surprised I didn't condemn the breeder from the moment I stepped into the situation. I think, having waited for six months and being convinced I was talking to a responsible person who had happy healthy kittens waiting, I wasn't able to see what was in front of my eyes at first.

I happened to find the contact details of someone who had had kittens from this breeder previously, and they warned me off, confirming the fact that their cats had taken forever to calm down and appreciate human contact.

I of course am not proceeding, and will restart my search for an ethical breeder - this time visiting before kittens are even in the equation so I know exactly what I'm dealing with (and so the breeder is happy with me also).

I am trying to find the best way of reporting what I found to make sure it isn't allowed to continue.

Thanks all for your support and advice. Hopefully at some point soon I'll be able to share happier news!

I'm sorry that after all this you still are not willing to give adoption a chance. Do you mind if ask what qualities exactly appeal to you about the ragdoll? There are so many kittens in shelters that are ready right now, and upon visiting, you could see personalities and whether or not you click before commit to buying a cat that hasn't even been conceived yet. We have a ragdoll. Not sure if she is purebred or just pretty close as she is a rescue and not a pedigree, and we love her dearly, but she isn't exactly what we thought we would be getting after my daughter had researched "Ragdolls".

SeventhHeaven · Feb 27, 2017

Banzai said:
Hi all,

Just an update for anyone interested - I just got to go and visit the litter of eleven week old kittens, which do actually exist.

All the kittens were extremely shy, and once they were brought out of their cage (which I was surprised they were in), they spent my entire visit trying to hide anywhere they could. None of them were interested in me or even in the breeder, and they were very jumpy.

I'm aware that cats can be nervous of new people, and aren't always friendly 'on cue' but I stayed there a long while (four hours, having traveled a long way to get there) and nothing much changed. One of the kittens was eventually happy exploring the room, but she seemed very nervous of any human movement and didn't want to be held at all. The others simply hid whenever they were allowed to and also flinched any time there was human movement. I was able to pick one up and stroke her for a few minutes, but overall they all seemed far happier away from humans.
One kitten also looked like he might be a bit ill. Much smaller than the others, sneezed a few times while I was there, and had what looked like runny eyes - although maybe this was because they'd recently had their vaccinations?

Does anyone think their nervousness might be because they didn't grow up in the house? I found out that they were born and kept separately in a nursery until a week ago (age ten weeks), and I'm wondering if this means they haven't been well socialized. I had been under the impression that they had been exposed to people and human lifestyles, but it doesn't seem to be the case.
The breeder's adults (including mom and dad) are all outside in pens, both male and female. The litter boxes were full of feces. None of the cats or kittens seemed especially pleased to see her, either, with quite a few shying away from contact and one or two actually exhibiting fearful behavior (flinching, ears back).

I've never before experienced kittens that were so disinterested/nervy. I'm used to them being free to run inside the house with mom, shy to start with, and then coming out once they realize you're friend not foe.

Finally, I asked whether it would be best, when the time came, to take the kittens home via the vet to get it all over and done with, and the breeder recommended I wait four weeks after bringing them home before taking them to the vet. Is this normal?!?

As I'm really, really most concerned with happy healthy well socialized kittens, is my concern justified and was my original suspicion correct? The breeder was friendly so I'd be sad to back out especially after waiting for half a year, but I'm really not confident in what I saw - especially after getting next to no reassurance from the breeder's behavior up until now.

Any thoughts appreciated - thanks.

It's OK to present the kittens by taking them out of a crate but it's not good I feel to be running away from human

contact! at the same time it needs to be calm and quiet just normal environment to meet them. As you noticed most likely

NOT socialized not wanting to play or interact with people.

What breed of cats are you looking for? There are many breeders you really need to take care

and look for a nice breeder who has a good reputation word of mouth, wants to make you happy matching you with the right kitten/s.

Honestly people looking for kittens or cats want them NOW so if the breeder doesn't jump they will miss out on a sale period.

People don't wait around they move onto another kitty source. *I have young spares needing good homes

gladly send you 2

banzai · Mar 1, 2017

MollyBlue, my situation makes adoption difficult, as I explained before. I have to have indoor cats only, and I have only been given permission to have cats where I live on the grounds that I will be able to train them from scratch (kittenhood). I'm not at all averse to adopting but it'll be a fair few years before I'm in a position to do it, so in the meantime you'll have to forgive me for searching for kittens!

Seventhheaven I have started my breeder search again, and I'm being much stricter and more careful this time around

mollyblue · Mar 1, 2017

I'm sorry, I am not intending to be judgmental. Shoot, if you are giving a cat a home for 20 years, you are entitled to get the cat YOU want and you certainly don't owe anyone, especially not me, and explanation. I just advocate for adoption - Shelters are very sad places. Can I ask again what qualities about the ragdoll appeal to you the most? We have one, and while we love her dearly, she isn't exactly what we thought we would be getting after my daughter researched the breed, and my favorite qualities about the Ragdoll part of her are not the ones we read about. I am just curious really.

arouetta · Mar 1, 2017

Banzai said:
MollyBlue, my situation makes adoption difficult, as I explained before. I have to have indoor cats only, and I have only been given permission to have cats where I live on the grounds that I will be able to train them from scratch (kittenhood). I'm not at all averse to adopting but it'll be a fair few years before I'm in a position to do it, so in the meantime you'll have to forgive me for searching for kittens!

Seventhheaven I have started my breeder search again, and I'm being much stricter and more careful this time around

Shelters do have kittens. I went back through the thread and I couldn't find why kittens were mandated. Could you clarify? Any cat that's spent time with humans can become indoors only. Most cats stop trying to go outdoors in less than a month.

Primula · Mar 1, 2017

arouetta said:
Shelters do have kittens. I went back through the thread and I couldn't find why kittens were mandated. Could you clarify? Any cat that's spent time with humans can become indoors only. Most cats stop trying to go outdoors in less than a month.

I re-read the entire thread also. Was reading last night about the 9,000 cats & dogs who are euthanized in America EVERY DAY.

kskatt · Mar 1, 2017

Just need to mention, if scratching is the thing, I've seen many declawed cats in shelters. Many adult cats have already been "trained" to not scratch. Shelter cats are not bad kitties, I heard about one (I have no doubt there are more) cat surrendered because the owners had redecorated and the cat no longer matched the color scheme.

So many situations that are heartbreaking, one big reason we push adoption.

abyeb · Mar 1, 2017

Cats can be trained not to scratch... I always like to reccommend this tape: https://www.chewy.com/smartykat-scr...-QFJMuL7dL1bcElRu6IYpBoCSCDw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

Also if you keep your cat's nails trimmed as well as providing scratching posts and cat trees.

If you're really steadfast on getting a Ragdoll, the best place to meet reliable breeders is at cat shows. You should expect to have to wait a while for a kitten, the way that ethical breeders breed is that they won't mate cats until they know that they have enough potential families to give all the kittens homes.

banzai · Mar 8, 2017

Primula said:
I re-read the entire thread also. Was reading last night about the 9,000 cats & dogs who are euthanized in America EVERY DAY.

I'm not based in America. In the UK, shelters won't allow you to adopt if you don't have outdoor space.

I really do understand and agree with the need to adopt, and as I have said, I would do so if I could. However I can't, and my remaining option is to try and find a responsible breeder.

Columbine · Mar 8, 2017

Banzai said:
In the UK, shelters won't allow you to adopt if you don't have outdoor space.

I'm also in the UK, and am in the same position myself...except there are even more restrictions for me because I already have a cat and a dog

:frusty:

Some shelters will allowed you to adopt elderly/sick/disabled cats as indoor only. That isn't for everyone though. In my case, I've spent the best part of five years nursing two animals with end stage chf, (and having just lost a dog and a cat in the space of two weeks :rbheart:

) I need young, healthy life in the house. I feel bad about not going to a shelter, but I can't help the fact they're so :censor: about outdoor access!

Ethical, responsible breeders are out there, but they're not always easy to find. I don't know where in the country you are, but this list is a good start point. Ask lots of questions via phone or email before even going to meet the breeder, go meet them before the kittens are born if possible, and take note of how the adults respond to you and the breeder. When I met with mine she had a litter of kittens just ready to go to their forever homes - they were shy at first, but were soon all over us, playing, exploring and cuddling. That's what you want to see

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Just a thought - I totally understand the appeal of ragdolls, but you may find it helps to be less rigid on breed. For me, finding a truly good breeder was far more important that the breed itself

Of course, there will be good ragdoll breeders out there, but do keep in mind that the more popular a breed is (ragdolls are in the top 5 UK cat breeds, I think), the more likely you are to find less responsible breeders cashing in - especially now that pedigree kittens go for the same prices as pedigree puppies! Sad but true

Help please! Unhelpful breeder?

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