Help please! Unhelpful breeder?

banzai

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Hi all!
This is my first post on the site, so please bear with me.
Looking forward to meeting you along my cat-owner journey!

Unfortunately, I'm having to ask advice about a breeder I'm due to buy two pedigree kittens from. I did a lot of research last year, spoke to many, many breeders, and finally settled on a lady who seemed to offer everything I'm looking for, from principles right through to gorgeous cats.

Since I first told her I'd like kittens from her upcoming litter, she's never volunteered any information at all. I've had to call her to find out every detail - including whether her cat was pregnant, whether kittens had been born, what gender, what colour, whether there are pictures, so on and so forth. Each time we speak she promises to get in touch with more info next time, and she never does.

The kittens are getting on for six weeks old now, and I still haven't seen any pictures - or heard anything about their personalities, which I find very sad as I'm really interested in my kittens' growing phases. I don't know for sure what colours they are (just a vague guess) or anything else at all. I also don't have any pictures/information about the parents, apart from the fact I could meet them when I visit at ten weeks.

The breeder has been operating for years and is fully registered, I've heard good things, and I don't doubt the fact that the kittens exist or that the environment is healthy, but I'm growing concerned that the breeder doesn't think it important to proactively share information about the living things I plan to adopt and have repeatedly shown a desire to know about.
Also having done a lot of research beforehand, I know other breeders proactively give updates on a weekly (or even daily) basis, so I'm disappointed to be in this situation.

She is really lovely every time I speak to her, but I'm starting to feel like a nuisance as I have to call and chase up if I want any information at all. Each conversation starts with an apology from her about not calling when she said she would.

Should I be concerned? She isn't tech savvy so doesn't use email, but she certainly knows how to use a phone...
I really want to understand whether I'm being impatient and this is just the way some breeders operate, or whether I should be re-starting my search for a new breeder *sigh*...

Thanks!
Banzai
 
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banzai

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Hi Primula!
I love cats, have grown up with them, and now am in a position to home two. I'm buying rather than adopting because I've chosen a particular breed whose behaviour traits suit the situation I'm in, and I'm going for kittens because they'll be easier to train. That's the theory, anyway :)
 

sivyaleah

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I'm going to address the breeder.  I agree that adopting from a rescue or shelter would be preferable but, even I have one particular breed in mind which I would consider purchasing down the road.

While the breeder appears to have good credentials, that doesn't necessarily translate to being a good business person.  I would personally be very wary of any breeder who didn't answer questions, and made me do all the leg work.  Every breeder's website that I've seen will always show photos of the mom and dad and the kittens resulting from matings.  I mean, how can you purchase a kitten sight unseen and be assured that you're going to receive what you thought you were?

Aside from that, it is also too easy for catteries to get themselves registered with various associations that sound legitimate.  Even if rated well when they first start out, I don't think there is any kind of systems in place to continue assuring a cattery is being honest with their customers.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong about that aspect.

I would personally walk away from the breeder and find one more inclined to having a conversation with you. One who has photos to share and gives you the information you need.  Do they have a website which lines out how to care for kittens once in your home? Do they have an actual contract you sign with them?  Every reputable breeder will have legal documents to be filled out to protect both you and the breeder.  If they don't it's another cause for concern.
 

posiepurrs

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As a retired breeder, i would also suggest walking away from this breeder. Every breeder i know wants to interact with the potential pet parents to assure the cat gets the best possible home.  It sounds to me like she isn't interested in selling her kittens. May I ask what breed?
 

di and bob

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There are many people like her that aren't the 'sharing' type. She may be extremely busy or extremely arrogant to think her time is more important than anyone else's. If it was me, after all your trying,I would tell her exactly what I want, list it out to her when, and if she can't provide it I'm sorry but I will have to go elsewhere. Tell her just like you told us, that you are so excited and you have to be more involved in your new kittens lives. Is she close enough to go visit? if so set up a date and time. I too would be extremely leery of someone who withholds all this information, but she may also be  truly ignorant of social interactions. Good luck and keep us posted!  
 
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banzai

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 Every breeder's website that I've seen will always show photos of the mom and dad and the kittens resulting from matings.  I mean, how can you purchase a kitten sight unseen and be assured that you're going to receive what you thought you were?
Hi Sivyaleah, I've asked for photos of mom and dad but the breeder isn't tech-savvy and her website is really, really out of date. I'm glad I'm not alone in thinking this should be something made available to buyers though!

The breeder hasn't talked about contracts or anything like that, although her website does talk about how important it is to make sure kittens come with papers. She's made it very clear that she spays/neuters before kittens go, but apart from that I haven't had any info. I'll have to call and check...

 
 It sounds to me like she isn't interested in selling her kittens. May I ask what breed?
Hi posiepurrs! The breeder is always very nice on the phone, but I have to call every single time (even when she says she will). I'd been promised I was first on the list for the litter, but I wouldn't have even known they were born if I hadn't made the effort to record when she'd put her cats together and then call around the 10 week mark. The breed is ragdoll. I basically get the impression that she's happy to oblige if I push, but that she wouldn't be bothered if I dropped off the radar... do you think this might just be because she has a lot of willing buyers? Or is she testing my levels of interest?
 
 Is she close enough to go visit? if so set up a date and time.
Hi Di and Bob, the breeder is close enough to visit on a weekend, but she doesn't allow kitten visits until ten weeks (after first vaccs). I can understand that, but given that I've been waiting since way, way before conception I'd rather not wait until ten weeks for any proof at all that things are ok! It could end up being time wasted. I might take your advice and just ask her outright for a bit more effort on her part..! Thanks!
 

StefanZ

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Hi Sivyaleah, I've asked for photos of mom and dad but the breeder isn't tech-savvy and her website is really, really out of date. I'm glad I'm not alone in thinking this should be something made available to buyers though!

The breeder hasn't talked about contracts or anything like that, although her website does talk about how important it is to make sure kittens come with papers. She's made it very clear that she spays/neuters before kittens go, but apart from that I haven't had any info. I'll have to call and check...
but if her website is old and not renewed, this doesnt tell much, as its apparently not she whom constructed it nor renewed.  She apparently got help from someone.  Its fully possible this someone wrote what he knew were the rights things, HIS words, not hers.

If she isnt very communicative its not sure she told to write down every detail, so he/she webmaster was forced to write on his own.   And not being tech knowleable, she didnt of course correct any misunderstandings either...

Which is normally the big advantage with Internet, you can change and update accordingly as time and circumstances changes...
 

SeventhHeaven

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Hi    At the beginning I was wondering if you had paid a Deposit??  Then yes most likely she would

update send you videos etc.  Then reading on it sounds like you have NOT paid anything to her so

there is NO commitment made between either of you.  Is that correct?
 

posiepurrs

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Hi    At the beginning I was wondering if you had paid a Deposit??  Then yes most likely she would

update send you videos etc.  Then reading on it sounds like you have NOT paid anything to her so

there is NO commitment made between either of you.  Is that correct?
That is a good point! I assumed that a deposit had been paid, however if not, then she is under no obligation to respond to your requests for photos or information. Remember, breeders have lives other than their cats too so are also busy people. She should update her website though, but most are going to Facebook now days.
 
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banzai

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Originally Posted by Seventhheaven  

it sounds like you have NOT paid anything to her so there is NO commitment made between either of you.
 
That is a good point! I assumed that a deposit had been paid, however if not, then she is under no obligation to respond to your requests for photos or information. Remember, breeders have lives other than their cats too so are also busy people. She should update her website though, but most are going to Facebook now days.
Thanks posiepurrs and seventhheaven.

To clarify, the breeder doesn't update her website, use Facebook or any social media, send emails, use a cellphone, or provide any info other than when I call on the landline telephone, hence my slight frustration.

I would like to have put a deposit down, but the breeder doesn't take deposits until the first visit (post-vax at week 10), so one could definitely say she isn't committed to me. Then again, I have been waiting for this litter for almost ten months so I suppose I was hoping for my own commitment to be reciprocated somehow - or at least some reassurance about my choice. After all, I have absolutely no guarantee that things are ok, or proof that the kittens even exist... I could have been waiting ten months for nothing.

In any case, the kittens should now be eight weeks. I still haven't seen any pictures of the litter or parents, but I suppose I'll wait a few more weeks to solve this mystery!

Thanks for help, everyone!
 

kskatt

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After waiting this long, a couple more weeks won't be too bad. I hope! Honestly though, I don't know about kittens, but you might be surprised at how many purebred animals show up in shelters. There are also rescues designated to particular breeds.

I hope your kitten turns out to be exactly what you want :)
 

katocats

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Hi Banzai, Welcome to TCS. We have only ever dealt with two breeders most of our cats have been rescues .The breeders were both excellent always keeping us up to date from day one, they asked questions about us if we had owned cats before etc ! we were asked  to visit after six weeks which we did one visit was a 300 mile round trip the other was a trip to Ireland
 great day out. .Got our kittens after 14 weeks it just sounds a bit strange that your doing all the calling and chasing up. Both breeders had children worked and bred cats I don't know how they did it all, both took a deposit after 6 weeks. I hope it works out for you and you get your furbabys  it may just be the way this breeder does things
 
 
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basscat

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Since I first told her I'd like kittens from her upcoming litter, she's never volunteered any information at all. I've had to call her to find out every detail - including whether her cat was pregnant, whether kittens had been born, what gender, what colour, whether there are pictures, so on and so forth. Each time we speak she promises to get in touch with more info next time, and she never does.

The kittens are getting on for six weeks old now, and I still haven't seen any pictures - or heard anything about their personalities, which I find very sad as I'm really interested in my kittens' growing phases. I don't know for sure what colours they are (just a vague guess) or anything else at all. I also don't have any pictures/information about the parents, apart from the fact I could meet them when I visit at ten weeks.
 
"YOUR" kittens died. 
(such is one of MANY possible scenarios a breeder knows how to avoid having to explain). 
A good breeder knows better than to count their chickens before they hatch.  OR rather, commit their kittens before they are old enough to determine solid health.

When a kitten reaches a certain age, and ALL is well with the kitten.  The breeder will then take deposits, or assign said kittens to previous depositors. 
The number of kittens may not be enough.   Depositors may change their minds at the last minute, thus opening up the next person in line...last minute.
Only then will the breeder begin discussing "YOUR" kitten.

Not all breeders are like this, but, if they do it long enough.  They learn how to avoid possible scenarios and situations that should have never happened in the 1st place.  Things that could have, and should have been avoided by simply waiting until everything was CERTAIN. 
 
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banzai

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Hi all,

Just an update for anyone interested - I just got to go and visit the litter of eleven week old kittens, which do actually exist. :)

All the kittens were extremely shy, and once they were brought out of their cage (which I was surprised they were in), they spent my entire visit trying to hide anywhere they could. None of them were interested in me or even in the breeder, and they were very jumpy.

I'm aware that cats can be nervous of new people, and aren't always friendly 'on cue' but I stayed there a long while (four hours, having traveled a long way to get there) and nothing much changed. One of the kittens was eventually happy exploring the room, but she seemed very nervous of any human movement and didn't want to be held at all. The others simply hid whenever they were allowed to and also flinched any time there was human movement. I was able to pick one up and stroke her for a few minutes, but overall they all seemed far happier away from humans.
One kitten also looked like he might be a bit ill. Much smaller than the others, sneezed a few times while I was there, and had what looked like runny eyes - although maybe this was because they'd recently had their vaccinations?

Does anyone think their nervousness might be because they didn't grow up in the house? I found out that they were born and kept separately in a nursery until a week ago (age ten weeks), and I'm wondering if this means they haven't been well socialized. I had been under the impression that they had been exposed to people and human lifestyles, but it doesn't seem to be the case.
The breeder's adults (including mom and dad) are all outside in pens, both male and female. The litter boxes were full of feces. None of the cats or kittens seemed especially pleased to see her, either, with quite a few shying away from contact and one or two actually exhibiting fearful behavior (flinching, ears back).

I've never before experienced kittens that were so disinterested/nervy. I'm used to them being free to run inside the house with mom, shy to start with, and then coming out once they realize you're friend not foe.

Finally, I asked whether it would be best, when the time came, to take the kittens home via the vet to get it all over and done with, and the breeder recommended I wait four weeks after bringing them home before taking them to the vet. Is this normal?!?

As I'm really, really most concerned with happy healthy well socialized kittens, is my concern justified and was my original suspicion correct? The breeder was friendly so I'd be sad to back out especially after waiting for half a year, but I'm really not confident in what I saw - especially after getting next to no reassurance from the breeder's behavior up until now.

Any thoughts appreciated - thanks.
 

sivyaleah

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Banzai, I know this is difficult for you , but if I were in your position, I'd walk away.  

Most kittens are very curious by nature, not stand-offish.  They explore relatively easily and as long as they have been around humans from the start should not shy away from them in general.

It does sound like this breeder is not the best out there. If you did not connect with any of these kittens, I'd heed the warnings you are feeling about adopting one.

There are many reputable breeders and I'm sure you'll find one if you are set on a purebreed cat.  Or better yet, visit your local shelters and contact rescues to see if there's a domestic cat that makes your heart sing.  
 

GoldyCat

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I have to agree, I'd walk away. From what you described it sounds like you'd be socializing what is basically a feral kitten. How could you even choose the kitten you want when you couldn't interact with any of them?

As far as waiting 4 weeks after taking a kitten home to take it to the vet, no, that is not typical. Does the breeder have a health guarantee in her contract? Granted, I haven't seen very many contracts, but the ones I've seen require you to take the kitten to your own vet within 2-3 days or the health guarantee is not valid.
 

Willowy

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Yes, every litter I've raised would all come stampeding to the door any time somebody walked in. It's not normal for pet kittens to be that shy at that age. I might be inclined to rescue kittens like that but I would not pay money for them. If they haven't been socialized before now they'll never be really outgoing. They may be affectionate with you once you've earned their trust but they won't be friendly and calm when outsiders are around. I'm sure you could find a better breeder somewhere.
 

Primula

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The breeder's adults (including mom and dad) are all outside in pens, both male and female. The litter boxes were full of feces. None of the cats or kittens seemed especially pleased to see her, either, with quite a few shying away from contact and one or two actually exhibiting fearful behavior (flinching, ears back).
The adult cats are in pens?!!!!! Litter boxes full of feces?

Does anyone else thing these breeders should be reported for animal neglect?
 

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If reporting, use the word cage instead of pen for the enclosure.  And excrement instead of feces for the litterbox. 
 
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