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John Allen Muhammad sentenced to death - Page 2

post #31 of 54
Originally posted by WellingtonCats
Anyone who takes someone elses life in this way deserves to die. I wish NZ had the death penalty it could come in handy. BTW I'm all for the death penalty if correctly used.
Now Sam I am not getting at you for using your quote but it seems to me that a lot of folk think the death penalty is a handy device. Hey just like the TV remote
Correctly used - who makes those choices?
The teenager has a life sentence why? Did the people he killed think
'oh its okay it was the teenager so we dont have to kill him?' Manipulation is an easy excuse - no one makes you a killer. He will be out in a few years - then what. Do you have reeducation or rehabilitation I dont know. Surely if you belive in capital punishment then what was your excuse for not 'zapping' him. Murder is murder and this was premeditated by all accounts.
post #32 of 54
Grrrr. Potassium Chloride (KCl) huh, Give me 48 hours with this guy with a carrot peeler, straight razor and some battery acid. Same goes for rapists and child molesters.

sorry *looking for a place to hide*
post #33 of 54
Sang77 - to paraphrase Victor, doesnt that mean you would be a murderer too? Do want to be electrocuted, hung or injected when we try you.

Or would your case be 'justified murder', or are you under 21 so it doesnt apply, or were you manipulated. I think you would probably fill the critera stated before-premeditated, (maybe not multiple victims but who knows this one then onto the next, trusty carrot peeler in hand?), and inflicting terror on the victim.
And round and round we go
post #34 of 54
Um, it's Sang72 and I live in a little fantasy world where everything is peachy lol. I never said I'd kill the guy. =P
post #35 of 54
Okay, sorry Sang72, would that we all lived in your fantasy world
Not kill then just scar terribly and maim brutally?
Trouble is this is SUCH an emotive issue but too many questions remain unanswered on both sides. Many dont join the discussion because they hold views that could be misinterpreted and then people feel 'got at' and in ends in a cyber scrum!
As I posted earlier I just hope I never have those choices.
post #36 of 54
A friend of mine is a prison officer, and she told me that the inmates have to do chores, but in return get a small salary each week to pay for their cigarettes, chocolate, phone cards etc...., they are also allowed to study subjects where at the end of it, they can graduate with honours all ready for when they face the big wide world again.

Moira Hindley was one of them. I always remember her picture in the newspaper in her cap and gown with her degree in her hand. We the tax payer paid for that, but why, when she was serving life?.

I'd hate to be in prison, as would a lot of you, but knowing what i know about the prison service, to a lot of prisoners who don't have a quality home life etc...i think they have it easy inside.

But i still stand by my opinion. As long as they are without doubt 100% certain with murderers such as Hindley and Brady, Fred West,etc.. bring back the death penalty!.
post #37 of 54
Thread Starter 
You people are touching a bit the issue of Malvo getting a life sentence instead of death penalty. First of all he's a child, so to say. Second, according to most, he would have been manipulated, and manipulating/brainwashing a teenager would have been relatively easy.

In other words he may not have even know what he was truly doing. If such is the case, my bit of knowledge of psichology tells me he can be rehabilitated.

There is another issue: A majority of countries in the world have abolished the death penalty. This is a growing trend right now. If it keeps on like that, the U.S. may end up easily the only developed nation with the death penalty. It will end up in the same list as most third world countries of regions as central africa and such. Superpower or not, like all countries the U.S. has to keep up with the rest of the world. Don't you agree?

You people talk about what I call the country club theory. That he would end up in something of a country club, which some prisons in the states are. I have always been apalled at that myself, and I believe that for such criminals they should not be in too good accomodations. Anyway, I haven't got much to whine, since standards of prisons here are way below those in the states. They have little air conditioning, and not nearly as much luxury among other things, and in most cases there are quite a few mice in the kitchen. It's true they ain't exactly medieval dungeons, but they ain't exactly club fed either.

And prisoners here tend to have some kind of sense of justice, people who have commited crimes of killing children, rape or against their parents, and other similar things usually don't last a second before another inmate has tried to kill them already.

If you wish, you can forgo the death penalty and send him over here for life sentence. I guarantee you, he is going to have a kick from it. That is, if he survives to have the kick.
post #38 of 54
I'm with you on that one Victor!. Your country sounds as if they have the sort of prisons that they should be!!!. This is what infuriates me about our system, such as them getting university degrees. It cost my friend £3000.00 to send her daughter to university yet prisoners get it paid by us tax payers!.

Take it from me, my prison officer friend said that anyone who is sentenced for rape, beating or mugging old people , child abuse etc...have the inmates ready and waiting for them.

I always put myself in the victims relatives situation, and knowing that person was just locked up would chew me up inside, because he was still alive and my relative had his/her life taken from them.

If you ever get a chance to read about the 'Moors Murderers' you will understand why, and how these two evil people affected the victims families.
post #39 of 54
The Moors Murders were so heinous - they didn't find all of the bodies did they?
post #40 of 54
Thread Starter 
What were the Moors Murders? I have never heard of that one.

That about the inmates waiting for the rapists and such... that's really interesting. You know, it is the kind of thing that could make an excellent subject of an anthropological investigation... If it wasn't that you would have to spend so much time near a prison to make it. I don't know, just find it curious how people who may have killed hundreds in gang fights and drug smuggling would have such a sense of what should not be done. Puts you to think the human side to them.

In prisons here, in all of them there are at least vocational courses. The kind of things you would find in a vocational school. Made with the idea that the inmates who get out find something decent to make a living, rather than in crime. But you have to behave very nicely to have it.

The only prisons you can say that are full of luxuries, are the juveniles and the federal one, which is crammed full of white collar felons.
post #41 of 54
Victor - here is some information about the Moors Murders

They were heinous, did some awful things to the children.
post #42 of 54
Lee Malvo was sentenced to life without the possibility of parole. Under the laws of that state he will never breathe free air again. Let's take the worst case scenario and that sentence is commuted to life with the possibility of parole. Can anyone actually envision a parole board letting him out? I would only have to show you Charles Manson, Sirhan Sirhan, Leslie Van Houten (Manson Family Member) to say that he won't be getting out. Each of the previous 3 are eligible for parole, and have their hearings every year or 2. They are denied every time because of the nature of their crimes.

Back to Lee Malvo. He is quite probably going to be tried again in a death penalty trial in Louisiana and/or Alabama. If he's found guilty in either of those states, he'll go to death row. I don't think there is any question about that.
Is it right?
I can only answer that this way:
It's the law.
71% of Americans favor having and using the death penalty according to a Gallup Poll in 2002.
I don't see that number changing anytime soon.
post #43 of 54
KELLYE: No they never found all the bodies, even though the families pleaded with them in letters, just so they could eventually die in knowing their children were laid to rest.

Brady refused outright, even now!. Hindley a few years ago took the police back to the moors, but they found nothing. I always thought she did it thinking it would go in her favour?!.

The victims families always said that if she ever won any of her appeals, that they would be at the prison gates waiting for her(amongst many of the general public!). She was lucky she died in in prison because she would'nt have stood a chance!!!.

VICTOR: I've always found it interesting also to think of hardened criminals who kill there own sort of people(drug dealers)etc.. to have, how would you call it, to show that they are not so bad after all?!, if that sounds right?.

I think it's because if it was someones grandmother who had been beaten and raped, they think,'That could have been my grandmother he did that to'.
post #44 of 54
I think you are possibly right grampngrn re the parole issue on those v.high profile cases. What about the not so high cases. Same over here re the Moors Murders. Yes Myra Hindley died in prison and Ian Bradey refuses to be released even if given the chance. He will die in prison. The crimes were committed over 30 years ago, you cant tell me no one has acted as bad or worse since that time. Others though have committed crimes just as heinous and are eligable for parole over here after 10 years. With little or no education or rehabilitation what happens to them? Surely we are not suprised if they take the 'easy' road back to crime and murder. Prison is as a punishment not for punishment. Ultimately the worse thing is to take someone liberty away from them. For me prison should offer education. If you have nothing in prison and have nothing to lose then why not riot as a way to break the boredom! There are well documented cases of murderers being educated and leaving prison to lead good fulfilling lives as a result. If the death penalty is a deterent as is often put forward how come more people are being sent to 'the gallows' than ever before.
Being 'the law' is not a good enough reason. Laws are not always to the good.
Another thing re 'public opinion' etc. If you do read the story by David Smith who actually told the police re the Moors Murders the 'great british public' were ready to string him up and he was the one who actually got them caught!
post #45 of 54
Thread Starter 
Tulip: I don't have to say anything more, you said it completely. Here in PR there are college degrees, in the less infamous prisons, at least. But at least they all try to fill that principle, even if it's just a vocational school.

Rosie: I agree with you a lot. Many of those hardened criminals, you can often find them melting at the sight of a toddler and playing with him and spoiling him. And many of them have children of their own, so I guess when they receive an inmate for child molestation they think "that could have been my daughter".
post #46 of 54
TULIP and VICTOR: I hear what your both saying, but oooooh i don't know?!LOL.

Saying that though. Tulip you may remember this(don't know your age,sorry). Can you remember an 8 year old by the name of Mary Bell?.

Back in the 1960's, she murdered a small child, just along from where i work now.

Now she is the same age as me(45 years young!), with a new identity, a husband, and a child of her own. So there may be something in what your both saying!
post #47 of 54
Thread Starter 
She's 49 yrs old. I checked the profile
post #48 of 54
Ooooh Tulips still a young kitten like me then!!.

Thanks Victor
post #49 of 54
Tut tut Victor, giving out a womans age
(Nearly striking 50 and soooooooo looking forward to it as well, I really mean that. Leaving all the cr@p behind that you gather in your youth and that really doesnt matter.) I am comfortable with my age and me all over as well.

ps yes Susan I do remember Mary Bell and the persecution of her daughter not that long ago by the Great British Press.

Oh good just noticed that it is 4.45 only 15 minitues to go. I know it pays the mortgage but...........
post #50 of 54
Mary Bell will be 47 in May - I remember being horrified at the time because our birthdays were just a few days apart. There's a long synopsis of the case here:
I've read a couple of books about the case, and it's obvious that she was the emotionally abused child of a mentally ill mother, which, while not an excuse, at least in part explains her behavior, and, as she was most definitely a child, she isn't comparable to Myra Hindley and Ian Brady. The case that seems closest is the Jamie Bulger murder:
Both of his murderers have been given new identities and released, and their family backgrounds were almost as bad as Mary Bell's. While I unfortunately can just about conceive that a child can be capable of such a crime, I find it hard to believe that two children would jointly plan and carry out such an outrage.
The question is: is a 17-year-old comparable to a 10-year-old? In most cases, no, though, in my experience (teacher of teenagers since 1980), some teens function at a 9-year-old's level, while others are far more mature than some 40-year-olds I know. At this point, I think the decision not to give Malvo the death penalty was probably correct. But - what's worse - being executed, or facing the prospect of spending the next 50, 60, or 70 years in prison?
post #51 of 54
jcat- you see, nothing is black or white in any of these cases. I do believe the death penalty is often a 'knee jerk reaction' to the horror we quite rightly feel at murder. As you say early abuse in the background is not an excuse but can explain an awful lot. I dont believe that any case should be judged against another as all are different with different people and reasons but I know what you mean re Mary Bell/Jamie Bulger.
Perhaps excecution is preferable to 40/50 years in prison but I still refuse to believe that a civilised society cannot find a better way to deal with those who kill.
post #52 of 54
TULIP: Did you see the programme last night on the Holly Wells?.

It would be interesting to see exactly how long 'Huntley' serves of his life sentence?!. And i would'nt like to be Maxine Carr either in the next couple of weeks of release!.

I've always said, i can understand how people can kill, such as a family member being beaten to death, or a family member being raped etc.... And i swear to god if anyone hurt Rosie in any way, and i'm not just saying this, but if i ever got my hands on them, i'd beat them to a pulp, and i'm not a violent person, but to have something hurt or taken away from me in such a manner like that would without doubt tip me over the edge!.

I just wish i could understand what goes on in their heads to just kill for no reason?.

JCAT: Thanks for putting that on. For some reason i thought i was 8 years old.
post #53 of 54
Originally posted by rosiemac
TULIP: Did you see the programme last night on the Holly Wells?.
It would be interesting to see exactly how long 'Huntley' serves of his life sentence?!. And i would'nt like to be Maxine Carr either in the next couple of weeks of release!.
Oops nearly missed this one. No I didnt watch it - it may mean 'closure' for them but it felt a bit voyouristic to me. I think this another of those high profile cases so I doubt he will get out under 20 years.
post #54 of 54
I hope Huntley gets 50 years. Apparently that's possible:
The case received such wide publicity (there were daily updates here on the search for Holly and Jessica) that public opinion will probably ensure that he stays in for at least 30 years. I'd have been happier with consecutive life sentences, though.
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