Ragdoll, snowshoe or Siamese mix? Help please!

murrey

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Apollo & Athena are 2 kittens we rescued. Apollo's breed is a puzzle to us. He is very floppy, even when he does not want to be picked up - he just looks at you pitifully to put him down. Has never used his claws & makes the softest noises, sometimes he'll open his mouth to mew & no sound comes out! He has an inverted mask, bright blue eyes, very plumy tail, tiny paws but stocky with a ruff. Long hair, not as fluffy as a Himalayan, except his tail. He has lighter grey mixed with white on his back with a "bowtie" marking on the back of his neck. He is too sweet for words, but we are so curious to find out what breed he might be. He is very short & stocky compared to his sister.

Here is his elegant sister, Athena:
 
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StefanZ

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Do you know if they are littermates for real, or is she a sister as another member of the pack?

Both are points, but her ears are quite revealing...  And if they ARE littermates, what one has, tells much about the other too...
 
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murrey

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Thanks for replying! Yes, they are litter mates. I will post a picture of the mom & the 3rd kitten. We found a home on a farm for the mom & tabby son, both want to be outside. Its odd, a feral kitten was hanging around our indoor/outdoor fixed male cat. We thought she was a tiny kitten with abnormally short legs, but at 4 months gave birth to Zeus, a brown, very long tabby with an unbelievably loud voice, howling & meowing - very demanding and this white kitten with peach striped tail & a few peach stripes on face, peach ears & the snowshoe looking one Mom has mint green eyes. The tabby was born a week before the other two. The mom also moved them as our male cat turned on the mom & kittens. We were fooled for 2 weeks, then moved them inside. When we got all 4 fixed, the vet thought they could be 3 different father's as the white female from a calico is not supposed to be able to also produce a dark point. I have no clue except I think they are the prettiest cats I've ever seen!


 
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murrey

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murrey

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Also, Apollo's fur is much fluffier & longer than Athenas' & her fur feels silky although both have super soft fur. Both have huge tails, but Athenas' is longer & not as plumy - she is longer & leaner all around. Apollo has tufts of fur between his toes & some paw pads are pink & some brown.
 

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You know what?  I suspect momma is herself a point!  We dont see the wood because of all the trees, but her wild coloration is part of the masque and other  point attributes.

And her eyes are really a variation of blue.

So she is point, she is tabby, is is calico. Patched diluted lynx point??

  What is baffling me a little, she seems to be both diluted and not diluted.  The theory says, once diluted is diluted, you either do have the gene or not.  But she has both blue parts and black parts, creme parts and red parts...   Also, her children got the dilutation gene, esp the tabby and the creme point.

So, the tabby had probably another father, and it explains why he was born a full week earlier.  He was conceived earlier.   We really dont know much about the father, as the colors and pattern probably comes from momma.  The only we know, he wasnt not point, and not longhaired.

The pointed siblings had probably the same father.  Whom was probably a longhaired point, or at least a carrier of these both genes.

Interesting!

You are also welcome with more pics of the beautiful momma!
 
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StefanZ

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Ah, the creme girl with her big ears...  The main candidate for a look alike will be the Balinese, ie a longhaired siamese.

Thus, my guess is, the father had near ancestry from a Balinese.
 
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murrey

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That's so fascinating - the whole kitten drama has been bizarre! The mom is gorgeous, I've never seen such mint green with natural eyeliner. I thought she might be munchkin mix because I couldn't get over how short her legs were & she is smaller than her kittens - someone mentioned munchkin & she fit the attributes. Unbelievably smart teen mom to fool our cat & while we were incognito following Chloe hoping she had moved them,she came back & meowed heartbreakingly every day for over 2 weeks. All she had to do is look at her kittens & they stopped mewing. I wish I had her mothering skills!
Now, please forgive my ignorance - do you mean the mom is a long haired Siamese or mix? She certainly has the most obnoxious meow human ears have ever heard. If I can upload a video, I will -if not I'll post the link for youtube where she talks to the kittens & I think we caught her jumping about 8 feet.
So, Zeus has the white black & non-dilute brown whereas Chloe has the red - a dilute color? Then Athena got the white (she is bright white, I know the pics look cream -its the peach markings maybe) then the very dilute red & Apollo - that's what was confusing too - he has the dark point markings, almost except the mask & his tail starts out very light grey to dark charcoal. However, there is very light beige and light grey among the white - is that dilute?
I also was told that the father of a white female would have to be white, but to have dilute red, both parents have to have red in some form. Is that right?
Last question - promise, with the inverted mask, doesn't that mean snowshoe? I'll post some pics after this. Thanks for all the great info!
 
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murrey

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Balinese - interesting! Maybe there is one running around the neighborhood. Would he have to be white & red/orange with blue eyes?!
 
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murrey

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As far as temperament, Athena is super playful - she makes anything a toy & can entertain herself for ages. She is in your face, whoever or whatever you are & nuzzles every chance she gets. The kids can't do homework if she around - she gets on the computer, chases the pencil, jumps on the paper. Very affectionate & not shy. Smart, can open containers, pull bottle tops out of wire drawers & does all kinds of mischief. Apollo on the other is very compliant, not as playful - shy. Loves water & will beg rather than demand. He also follows like a dog & sniffs & licks like a dog, it's weird!
 
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Apollo looks like a Ragdoll mix, IMO, but the girl looks more Siamese/Balinese :dk:. Very mysterious! Yes, the daddy cat was red or cream, almost certainly pointed, probably longhaired. The mother, being calico, could pass on either red or dark, so Athena got the red and Apollo got the dark.

I don't think the mother is dilute---I think the lighter spots are just her regular colors with white hairs mixed in, not actually lighter. So that means the father was probably dilute. So if you see a cream-pointed fluffy tom around. . .that's him!
 

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Balinese - interesting! Maybe there is one running around the neighborhood. Would he have to be white & red/orange with blue eyes?!
IF its a balinese, so he has blue eyes...  Girls can get red from daddy (sons cant) but as momma carries red, its not necessary.   Are you sure she is white?  I though she is simply fair being a point...  And not carrying any dark point color, just the fairest of them all, the creme, barely visible if you know where to look...
 
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murrey

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I can't believe Athena & Apollo are the same breed. They have opposite body types, one has medium hair, one long hair. Apollo's eyes are walnut shaped & his nose is short. Athena has big ears, almond eyes & long nose. I could be totally wrong, they just seem like very different breeds!
 

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I don't think the mother is dilute---I think the lighter spots are just her regular colors with white hairs mixed in, not actually lighter. So that means the father was probably dilute. So if you see a cream-pointed fluffy tom around. . .that's him!
Ah, yes, this would solve the riddle of being diluted and simultaneously not... so she really aint diluted, but has black spots being a tortie...   :)
 
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murrey

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I thought the girl might have a Balinese father, but not the boy? Yes, I really think she is bright white, maybe she could change to cream? She is about 7 months. If you see her in cat so to speak, the peach stripes bleeds into slight cream but the rest of her seems very white to me & next to my bright white comforter.
 

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Well, she's cream point---meaning that her body is white and her points are cream. Which isn't necessarily really cream-colored, that's just what we call dilute red. Although looking at the pictures again she might not be cream point, just red point, which is never very dark red anyway, especially in longhairs.

Yes, I noticed the difference in body and head shapes! That's a lot of wacky genetics going on. I'd love to know the histories of both parents.
 
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murrey

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That makes sense. It's probably 4 parents! One calico, a tabby, a male with ragdoll genes & a male with Balinese genes perhaps! The calico has odd color eyes though & has such short legs, some munchkin or similar breed to have your kittens larger than you in less than 3 months. I've looked around the neighborhood & have seen some enormous Himalayans & plenty tabbies, lots of black cats but that's about it. the mom must have Siamese - you have never heard such noises! I am trying to find the video link to see & hear her. Thanks for the input! Is Apollo a dilute Tortie with seal or chocolate points maybe?
 

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No he's a bi-color, that's what they call it in Ragdolls, it's different from regular bi-colors but I guess that's all you can call it, lol. Males are almost never torties; cats have to have 2 X chromosomes to have both red and black.

Maybe she did mate with 3 different males. No way to know without a DNA test. Better book a spot on the Maury show! :lol3:
 
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murrey

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Actually, Athena is medium hair, except for her tail - but she does have a ruff, like Apollo - he is long hair, just not as massively fluffed as a ragdoll.

I read that Tortie is black & red (orange or brown) then I read that a Tortie point has pink & brown paw pads & mottled pads. It's confusing because Chloe, the calico mom does have patches of lighter color, my son calls her camo - not so much with the black, but definitely the red is various shades of brownish red to very light with no white hairs mixed in, especially on her back.

Would it be fair to say, since there is white, dark chocolate or charcoal then the dilute of those 2 colors that Apollo is a dilute who knows what with seal points?!!!
 
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