Will there ever be peace again? I miss my sweet happy Lily

I know I have posted several times on Lily & Zoe's behavior, but I am at my whits end! I was crazy to think that getting a new kitten would help Lily, and that she would just magically accept her and love her like she did Callie. They are not getting along. All Lily does is growl, and hiss, all the time. Zoe will NOT leave her alone. Lily can't even use her litter box without Zoe under foot. Zoe is constantly attacking her, and trying to play. I feel so bad for Lily. My boyfriend says I am stressing way too much over this, that if they end up friends, good, if not, oh well they will be ok. I don't see it like that. Lily is my baby girl, I love her so much,and I've grown pretty attached to Zoe too. I just want my sweet happy Lily back, I feel like that part of Lily died when Callie died. I don't regret getting Zoe, and I am not saying I would ever re home her, but maybe I jumped into getting her a new friend too soon. I only waited three weeks after Callie died. I truly believed Lily would be more accepting, but she's not. Before she was just growling and hissing when Zoe would make her mad, now even when Zoe is being good she will still growl and his at her. She doesn't hurt her, she will swat at her when she jumps into her face. I think I will try the re introduction process, how do I do it? When I get Zoe spayed either next month, or early December, I think that'll be a good time to separate them when Zoe is healing up. Any other ideas in the time being? I know Zoe just wants to play, and be her friend, but Lily just sees her as this tiny little demon, who never leaves her alone. I try to distract Zoe.She has every toy you can imagine. Tunnels, stuff to bat at, everything, but she gets bored, and goes back after Lily. Sometimes I see them almost get along, I've seen them play a few times so there is hope. I try to play with toys with Lily, but she's never been big on toys. If I ever play with just Lily, Zoe comes in and Lily gets mad. I miss my old Lily, Before Callie died, she and Callie were best friends,and loved eachother. I remember one game Lily loved, hide and seek. I would hide behind a wall or door, and Lily would come find me, then she would hide and I'd find her. She also played this with Callie. I just want her to be happy again, to want to play again,and to happily play with Zoe. Please if anyone has any advice, please help. Her being mad all the time has gotten me depressed, and I dread coming home to the growling,

Here is a picture of them I took this morning;

Oh! And I forgot to mention Zoe also tries to suckle on Lily which really makes Lily mad

Please do not be so hard on yourself. Sometimes it takes time.

Did you go through the formal introduction process? If so how long did it take for you to let them be together?

The picture (combined with what you wrote) tells me it can work. Let's figure out the best way to get it to work.

Cat can take on our emotions so please be as calm and confident and positive as possible at all times around the cats. I know it is not easy but I think it could help.

Are they eating near each other? I would really try to get them to eat together (we want to associate Zoe with good things). I like that you are trying to get them to play with the other around (but not involved). I also think I would try to give Lily love (if possible without getting hurt) when Zoe is around but not focused on Lily.

Zoe is a kitten and has boundless energy, Lily has less. I just got done helping someone else with a similar situation. It sounds like Lily is a good cat and does not want to hurt Zoe which is great. 

I need to think a bit more about how best to proceed. I hate taking territory away and separating cats so I have to understand exactly how they are interacting. How often are they chasing etc? Are they sleeping in different places? How does Zoe react to the hisses/growling? Have there been any serious encounters? Any change in behavior for either one?

Does Lily have places to go high to escape Zoe at all? Or can Zoe get up on cat trees etc? I deal more with adult cats than kittens so we may need to have someone more familiar with kittens get involved in helping. We don't want Zoe to get hurt from height.

Let's try to figure this out as I think this situation can work. Just how best to proceed is the question.

Thank you so much for replying. 

Unfortunately, I skipped the proper introduction process. I had this crazy idea,that they would just magically hit it off, because I got so lucky when I introduced Lily & Callie, and hit it off the night they met each other. I let Lily meet Zoe the night that I brought her home. I really regret it, that's why I;m hoping,once its time for Zoe to get spayed, I can try to do it the right way, and let them "re meet" But that is still ways away. 

They do eat together, when Lily gets her treats, Zoe is right there waiting for hers, and Lily is ok with it, until Zoe tries to help herself to Lily's share of treats(which she regularly does). Zoe is a pretty strong kitty so there are only a few places Lily can get to that Zoe can't. One is the washing machine. Pre Zoe, Lily would jump onto the washing machine, get her love, and then proceed to the utility sink to get her "shower" (her drinking from the faucet) She still does this, but once again,gets mad if Zoe interrupts or just comes into that room. I can understand though, this was her special time, and now Zoe is interfering with that too. 

In response to how Zoe reacts to the hissing and growling, if she knows she's doing something wrong, attacking her or playing rough,she throws her self into the cute little defenseless mode, on her back, and paws up to show Lily submission. if Lily is just hissing and growling just because at her, she either ignores it or scampers away. Lily's behavior has changed, a lot, but I think that is more so from losing Callie. When Callie first died, she was very depressed,and just not herself. Then she got mad, and even more mad for the first few weeks Zoe was here. Now,when Zoe isn't around or isn't making her mad,I have finally seen glimpses of the old Lily, the happy one that she was when Callie was still here. For instance, yesterday Lily & I were outside together. She was happy that I was out there with her, and was rubbing against me,and rolling on the ground.  Part of me thinks I really need to show Lily that she's still my number one kitty and that Zoe isn't here to replace her. 

I think what also really makes her mad, is the suckling. I've noticed a lot in the morning, Zoe tries to go under her to suckle. I have no idea how to break this habit. She also suckles me,and I try and break her of that. Lily doesn't know what shes doing, and REALLY doesn't like it. I blame the suckling,on whatever Zoe's situation was before I adopted her. All I know is she was very young when I got her, and from what the paperwork says, she'd been in pound for about three weeks already. So someone took this kitties WAY too soon from their Mom, and dropped the kittens off at the pound. Anyway,I don't want to leave a novel for you to read, but thank you again for helping me. I hope one day, hopefully sooner than later, they will be buddies.

You are welcome.

This is very helpful. It actually sounds like it is going pretty well. It is GREAT that they are eating together.

How does Lily get "mad" exactly? Hissing and growling only or in addition to pawing and swatting and chasing etc?

It is not uncommon for a cat to grieve the loss of a loved one. So they will be a bit different. But with a lot of love and confidence building we can help them accept the loss better. I love that you were outside together yesterday, showing the cat love is really important. And try to spoil her a bit and if possible play. And do anything positive and that makes her happy especially when Zoe is around or her scent is around. We always try to associate the other cat with good things. I would try to view them as equals as much as possible, not that she is Number 1 alone but that she is Number 1 with Zoe with total love. Also, try to be as calm and confident and positive as possible around both cats especially Lily.

I think you are right that Zoe was taken away from her mother too early but it sounds like she is doing well and understands how to interact. I think you may want to start a separate post about the suckling and how to discourage it (if possible and/or desirable). I just have never faced that issue. 

How often is Lily bothered by Zoe? I would like to get a better idea about how they interact. It might be possible to not separate them and go through the formal introduction process. If possible I always like to try not to take away territory BUT it has to be the best option. I don't know yet if this might be possible in this case.

In the meantime, I would really like to try to build Lily's confidence via play, food, height and love. If Lily responds to play I would really step up play with her With Zoe not interrupting (if at all possible). Having someone distracting Zoe. After play then feed food or treats. I would also try to step up love with Lily. If you can have Zoe's scent on an old shirt around while giving love I think it might help (again associating Zoe with good things like love). We could see how she does and they do under this and then maybe we will not have to separate them. But I do want to understand how annoying Zoe is and if she is at risk of being hurt at all.

I hope this makes some sense, please let me know if you have any questions. I don't see any reason why they can't be buddies, they seem to be doing ok so far. Zoe seems to really like Lily. I am happy to help as long as you want. 

Thank you again for your help. Hopefully you'll see this post too, since I've taken several days to respond. Sorry! 

I think things are getting worse, or maybe today was just a bad day. Zoe was annoying Lily as always, and Lily jumped onto a chair,and so Zoe followed, and Lily lost her cool. I don't know how hard the smack was,but she smacked her several times on top the head, very fast smacks.Zoe just stood there stunned for a second and within two minutes,back to going after Lily. Then when I went to get them something to eat this evening, Zoe decided she need to check out Lily's food. Lily's growling, and doesn't get her dinner, Zoe forgets to eat hers because she's too busy bothering Lily. So I try putting Lily's dinner on the counter, along with some treats to calm her down, yeah..no. Zoe decides this would be the perfect time to be big enough to jump on the counter too. My poor Lily. I don't understand why she doesn't get that Lily doesn't want to be bothered all the time. She is a difficult kitten. I don't remember, four years ago, Lily being this bad. She's constantly attacking me,or Lily, and her only sweet times is when she wants to suckle. I'm thinking the separation/re introduction is the only way to go at this point.  That's still a ways away. Tomorrow i"m stopping by the vet to talk about setting up Zoe's spay appointment, but it won't be done till late November, early December. 

I just really think Lily has had her fill of Zoe, and is losing her patience. It really worries me because as much as she doesn't like her now, it's going to be harder for her to like her and be friends with her once Zoe grows up a little and isn't an endless ball of energy.  

These things take time. Try to be calm & patient. Lily is picking up on your stress levels & perhaps blaming the kitten for mommy's tension. I'm sure you will wake up one day & suddenly and they are cool with each other.

No need to apologize.

It sounds like Zoe was not hurt by the smacking she got? Is that correct?

Zoe is being a kitten. I just got done helping another person that went through the exact same thing. The kitten was ALWAYS bothering the existing resident cat. Resident cat would show his disapproval (in a non-hurting way) and the kitten would come back for more. Then one day after trying to distract and playing with the kitten etc every day for weeks they got along. And they like each other. It is very similar to your situation. Zoe is just being a kitten, it is pretty normal. She isn't a bad kitten, she is just a normal kitten.

Lily is being a really good cat through all this. That is a huge positive. Lily will be very helpful in making this work as well I believe.

Lily is eating normally, correct?

You mention that Zoe attacks you or Lily. How does she attack?

I really want you to try to distract Zoe (without putting yourself in harms way) when she is focusing on Lily. Distract with play or food if possible. Anything to break the focus on Lily. Can you get Zoe into another room (not in a closed room but in a separate room focused on you and a toy) and play with her for a while? 

I second what Primula wrote in her post. 

I hope I understand exactly what is happening with the two. Neither cat has been hurt by the other, correct? The picture I have may not be reality. Please try to stay as positive as possible with Zoe. And please try to work on them with play, food, height and love (if possible). Maybe try to feed the kitten first and then sneak the other meal to Lily (as close to Zoe as possible). Then try to keep Zoe focused on her meal if possible.

Hang in there, everything you are going through is very common. 

Hey, I just went through introducing two adult males, and believe it or not, they show the same interactions you are describing.  Well, Shortstack doesn't try to nurse Wurp, but still he is a younger cat with high energy aggravating an older, more serious-minded guy.  One of mine is 12, the other is 2...both neutered, after 7 months of slow introductions involving separation, positive reinforcement, you-name-it-we-tried-it, they are just fine together now.  Well, maybe not in Wurp's eyes (my old grouchy dude), but overall, just great.  Wurp will still sometimes smack Shortstack upside his head occasionally......but often it is called for (in cat communication!)

I've learned that not all slaps from the old guy are bad--he is actually just teaching him manners, much in the same way that a momcat would teach her little ones.  Like the "don't stick your nose up my butt while I'm eating" situation.  Often, what appears to be a rude smack (or slappity-slappity-slap as it happens in our house) is actually just communication of "we just don't do that, that's not acceptable".  Shortstack isn't hurt afterwards, and usually they go back to acting normal immediately afterwards.  There isn't any hiding or anything afterwards, and it doesn't turn into a pursuit of "I'm going to kill you!!!" like we had in the first few days of him being in the house with Wurp.

I'm sure that Lily is a true sweetheart--from that picture of them lying next to each other, it seems that she isn't intending harm.  And I can understand her frustration.  If you don't want to fully separate and start over---only IF you do have peaceful moments such as the pic of them just lying down next to each other---maybe try separating for a few hours a day to give Lily some "adult" time to relax without being harassed by the toddler.  We did that with Shortstack......we often still put him in his room at night to sleep instead of letting him sleep on the bed with us and Wurp.  Wurp is old.  He gets grumpy.  And a young one deciding 3am is play time is sometimes a bit much for him.  We've noticed that if Shortstack gets to be too much, we put him in his bedroom (the room where he stayed separated from Wurp during the 7 month long intro period) and he sleeps and plays in there, and Wurp gets a much-needed break.

If you have some peaceful times, nobody is trying to kill the other, no blood is shed, no fur is flying.....maybe a break time would be worth a try instead of totally separating.  It has worked wonders with Wurp and Stack's relationship, and prevented some hard feelings from grumpy dude.

The post by hbunny is EXCELLENT. It explains everything extremely well.

Nobody has hurt anyone, just a good swats on the head from Lily. I noticed in the last few days Zoe is now going up to Lily, and wrapping her arms around Lily's neck, almost like wrestling her.  I'm glad you guys have hope for them. It's just so frustrating, Zoe can just walk by now, and you'll hear a low growl coming from Lily. I'm sure she's assuming Zoe is up to her next attack. I feel so bad for her. Like right now for example, Zoe is asleep on the couch next to me, Lily is lying in the hallway and she looks lonely. I'm really going to try with you guys advice on the positive reinforcment, and reassuring Lily that she is just as special to me as she always has been, and no one is replacing her. I just really thought that they would become close, and good friends,and have a bond like she had with Callie. 

Lily's safe spots are dwindling quickly. Zoe has now learned how to get up on the counters. Her favorite one,is behind a water bed, somehow, Zoe hasn't discovered that spot yet, hopefully she won't. Lily also likes going out on the screened in porch, and likes to sleep, relax on couch out there,but it won't be much longer until its too cold for her to be out there for long.

Anyway, to answer how Zoe attacks me, she bites my arm hard,or my hand, and uses her claws too. I guess this is how she would play with other kittens, but unfortunate for all of us, she never got the oppurtunity. I did the math, and if she really was 4-6 weeks when I got her, she was dropped off at the pound at 2-3 weeks with her siblings, and with out a Mom. Hopefully Lily is teaching her social skills, and not just that big kitties growl at everything.

Do you know of any fun games I can play with them? I see they do play together, sometimes. Lily will be up on a chair/table and they will bat paws. Or Zoe will hide under the couch and Lily will investigate with that cute look of curiosity. I really want to work on associating Zoe with good things to Lily. 

Anyway, Thank you for everyone's advice,it's really helping us, Hopefully soon I'll have a huge break through to post about

It sounds to me like Lilly may be trying to teach Zoe some manners. How does Zoe react when Lilly smacks her? Years ago I adopted a six week old under socialized kitten. One of my senior males took on the role of teaching her manners by smacking her or pinning her to the floor with his paws when she was being a brat. It took a few months for her to learn kitty manners.

I do agree that it is important to make sure Zoe gets enough interactive play time to burn off some of her energy. I used wand toys with feathers to wear out my kitten. Starbuck is now a healthy socialized nine year old that has learned to get a long with three younger cats. These things take time and patience.

I hate to say this, but as Zoe gets bigger and gains access to Lily's hiding spots, there will be some hard lessons she will learn when Lily gets enough.  And probably the best thing you can do is let them work it out between themselves.  That was my problem, I just hated to see the interaction get ugly and I would interfere when I shouldn't have, but often what appears ugly to us is just how they communicate sometimes.

Example--when you said Lily growls as Zoe goes by--well, that is just communication.  She is telling her "don't even think about it".  That still happens at our house too.  It isn't a big deal for them to growl and grumble at each other, and I've learned it isn't always a sign of an impending attack, it's just them talking.  Sometimes it is just "hey, I don't feel like your crap right now".   If the other one doesn't heed, then somebody is gonna get slapped!  But there are never any hard feelings afterwards.

Be patient.  Trust that Lily will handle the situation.  She is handling it the way we would handle a toddler that is a holy terror, being patient as she can and trying to correct Zoe, but sometimes just has enough and she has to put a stop to the behavior in the method momcats use, at least that's what it sounds like.  I promise, as long as no fur is flying and nobody is bleeding, they are doing just fine!!

Things only got better with my two when I completely stepped away and let them form their relationship.  Of course we intervened when things were at the "I will kill you" stages, but when we got to the point of them being able to hang out together sometimes, we had to just step away and let them be cats.  Things started improving from that point onward.  It was just really hard for me to just "let go" and let them work things out.

catlover73 and hbunny both have excellent posts. I think they are exactly right.

I don't like that Zoe is biting you and using her claws. We need for her to realize you are not a toy. I typically say in a firm but not yelling voice "no". Cats in my experience learn that word pretty quickly. Zoe doesn't want to hurt but we want her to play with toys and not people's arms and hands.

Da Bird is very good. I also have success with balls (as long as they are not small enough for anyone to ingest or where they can tear them apart). My cats play "football" all the time with a ball. A good way to get them to burn off energy and stay occupied. I think if you search for toys on this site I am guessing others have good suggestions. I am a bit busy right now but will also try to find some good ideas.

I think you are in a much better position than you think. Everything you are experiencing is normal.

Here are some links to check out. I did not have time to check them out as I ma a bit busy right now. Always think about the safety of the toy and check them out before letting your cats play with them. Hope this helps. 

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/247090/best-cat-toys

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/290917/best-cat-toy

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/315126/i-have-a-genius-for-a-cat-name-me-your-best-toys

CalicosRSpecial said:

 
Da Bird is very good.

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Da Bird is a huge hit in our house!!!   Note--if you get one, make sure you get extra refills for the "bird" portion.  Mine shred and rip the feathers to bits, I keep an extra always on hand!!

hbunny said:

Things only got better with my two when I completely stepped away and let them form their relationship.  Of course we intervened when things were at the "I will kill you" stages, but when we got to the point of them being able to hang out together sometimes, we had to just step away and let them be cats.  Things started improving from that point onward.  It was just really hard for me to just "let go" and let them work things out.

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Such good advice. I was going to advise another poster to do this with her cats & now I will just cut & paste your answer. Cheers!