Jealous Cats

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sdufrene

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Thanks for explanation of the cats' hissing and introducing themselves. This makes good sense and lets me know we're moving forward. Its really funny because KitKat keeps talking to her off and on. Then runs back to me with the sweetest voice as if to say...there's another cat in the house - come see. Think I made a mistake tonight though. Left the door open, with only the gate. Moutside started crying again- nonstop about an hour ago. I kept trying to comfort her with words and from a distance. No go. I finally realized that maybe there were too many lights on in the house. Apparently dark is better? Went into her room, sprayed that mama pheromones stuff, held and calmed her, then shut off lights in hall and bathroom. Seems to have worked. I'm just wondering if that doesn't work for long tonight, would closing the door at night be a step backwards? She still doing the single hiss when KitKat gets too close to the gate. Thanks so much.
 
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sdufrene

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New problem...sort of. In the past, my spoiled rotten Siamese has bitten me if I disturb him. If he is sleeping on my lap or snuggled with me at night, and I try to move him...he bites...my hands, knees, feet, whatever is closest. I basically just stayed out of his way. However this seems to have escalated tonight with the opening of Moutside's door. How does one address a biting cat? None of my other cats in the past have ever bitten me. And Moutside is such a sweetie, but if KitKat bites her...
 

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It's still VERY early days in introduction terms, and it sounds like Moutside is feeling a little overwhelmed by it all. Shutting the door at night is a great idea. It's not a step backwards at all - just giving her time to process the day's events.

I suspect that, thanks to KitKat's curiosity, Moutside is feeling pretty insecure - even a little threatened - at the moment. Going from a closed doors 24/7 to a gate 24/7 is a HUGE leap forward, and she just doesn't sound quite ready for it. I might consider having the door closed for part of the day too. There's no hurry, after all, and it's vital that BOTH cats are comfortable and relaxed.

Don't get me wrong - KitKat is being wonderful with Moutside, and that's fantastic. It's simply that Moutside isn't quite ready for such a big step ;)

The mantra for introductions is 'always move at the pace of the least confident cat'. Remember too that Moutside may have had to fight for resources when living outside, so to her another cat is a potential threat. This WILL change in time, but it won't happen overnight!

KitKat's biting sounds most like a form of redirected aggression to me, and is very likey a sign that she's finding Moutside's presence harder than it appears on the surface (another great reason to back off a little ;) ). When she bites, freeze or (even better) push into the bite to get her to release the pressure. It sounds counterintuitive, but it's the opposite of what prey would do, and is the quickest way to get her to release you. Squealing 'ouch' (or similar) can help too, as that's how one kitten will tell another that they're hurting. [article="32390"][/article]

If you need to move KitKat, use an interactive toy (wand or pole-and-line style, such as Da Bird) to guide her away. If she thinks it's HER idea, she won't get riled up by you ;) If she's very food motivated, a favourite treat could work too :yummy:

Long term, you could look at using clicker training to teach her 'off/down/move' (to get her off, say, a bed or chair when needed). There are a couple of ways to do this. The first is 'Behaviour Shaping'. With this method, you wait for her to perform the action naturally, and click and reward when she does it. After a few times, you can add in the command word by saying 'Good off/down/move' (or whatever). Using a consistent command word is very important to create the connection between word and action ;)

The second method is to initiate and guide the action - either with a treat or with a want toy. Use your lure of choice to get her attention, then guide her off the bed (or whatever). Click and treat as before, and introduce the command word alongside the click as she gets the idea. After a while, you can phase out the lure and use the command word alone - being sure to treat and praise her immediately. Once the command is ingrained, you can phase out the click-and-treat - but be sure to reward randomly (ie some of the time) with the treat as well as praise, so as to keep reinforcing the behaviour.

In either case, click as she performs the action, NOT after. This is vital, as you need her to connect the action itself with the reward (and it's night on impossible to reward as she performs the action ;) ).

Keep training sessions short and sweet, stay patient, and be happy with any progress - however small. You also need to start by 'loading' the clicker (or even just by making the same clicking sound with your tounge). Make sure she's focused on you, and click-treat a number of times - until she's looking at YOU (rather than the food) for the next treat ;) [article="30493"][/article]
 
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sdufrene

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I am printing this! It's like you read my mind as I was wondering yesterday whether cats could be trained! Thank you so much foe this information. I am definitely closing the door today. I am a flood victim in Louisiana and have workers coming. As its overwhelming me, I know my critters are feeling the same.KitKat also goes behind closed doors as he bolted the last time I had contractors and was missing for 2 days. My appreciation..
 

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A tablespoon of baby food is enough to get them to eat a crushed pill if it tastes good (lorazepam does) and not enough to upset their stomachs prior to surgery.  Grey boy (see story under my signature) always got his meds in a piece of tirkey bacon, and he had to be sedated at the vet, never made him sick.  The laundry basket worked fine for him and much easier for the vet also to give him a shot there rather than trying to drag him out of a carrier.
 
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sdufrene

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Good advice. Thanks. Poor Moutside. Contractors were in the house today making noise. She has buried herself in the closet under suitcases. She didn't even meow when I went into the ruin to visit with her. When I did find her, she ran under the bed and wouldn't come out. So I sprayed the room again with pheromones and left her to calm herself. Thank God you guys told me not to push the open door. She has never, ever not responded to me. Poor baby. KitKat on the other hand is just fine. Had to lock him away because he was pestering the workers....getting up in the middle of things. Sometimes I think he's more human than cat.
 

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:eek:hno: I'm so sorry to hear that Moutside is so stressed by the workmen. My girl's been that way the past coupe of days too...and they haven't even been inside! If the contractors will be around for a while, she might benefit from some Composure. If, however, they're done/nearly done I might not bother. just keep an eye on her and see how she goes. :vibes:
 
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sdufrene

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Update... Started yesterday opening the door to Moutside's room for an hour with the gate in place. Though Moutside did hiss a bit at kitkat, it was sporadic and no where near as intense as before. Until...KitKat jumped up on my lap. (I was on the outside of the gate, while my son was with Moutside)Moutside charged the gate hissing and with a vengeance. So my questions are: Should I say or do anything when Moutside hisses at KitKat whether he is sittin on me or not? Presently I have sweetly said an "Awww..its okay". The second question is... Should I avoid picking up KitKat or allowing him to jump on my lap when we are visiting? Should I stay out of sight completely while they acclimate? And BTW... Moutside is sooo sweet. I have never had a cat that trilled. She trills nonstop when I enter the room. She has also tried to exit the room when I leave or my son leaves. I think she desperately wants to be with us because she will jump in my lap for snuggling before even eating. So I don't think its a run-away type escape. I really believe she wants to be in the rest of the house with us.
 

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Moutside sounds as if she was feeling intimidated or even jealous of KitKat "claiming" "her" human.  IDK what "experts" would recommend, but possibly it's a bit soon yet for this kind of interaction?  Also, interactive play sessions (with interactive toys such as da Bird, Cat Dancer, or other "fishing pole" type cat toys) with both of them should help them to feel more comfortable around one another.  
 
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sdufrene

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And that's what I'm wondering. I've picked up on how to introduce the cats, with the cats behavior as a focal point. I'm not sure what I should be doing while they're interacting! Tonight I did two new things.... One- I fed them both on opposite sides of the gate. Moutside went straight for her food. KitKat merely watched Moutside. According to Jackson, eating in close proximity is a huge indicator of friendly cohabitation. (Yes...I started taping and watching his shows). The second thing I did was put Kitkat in my bedroom and allow Moutside to explore the remainder of the house. While she came by to say hello, as I sat on the sofa, she just went everywhere! Seemed very comfortable. I let her roam for about 20 minutes. Of course, since then she's been crying at the door of her room ...wanting out. I'm not seeing aggression from either at the gate. There was no hissing at all tonight from Moutside. And I think KitKat is afraid of her. Just my guess. But during the feeding, he actually sat behind me to watch Moutside. Except for the 2 1/2 days KitKat went missing (contractors left the door open accidentally), I'm not sure he's ever seen another animal since he left his mommy. Anyway, it seems like we are getting close to a face to face. I certainly do not want to rush it, but it saddens me to know Moutside wants to be with us...cries to be with us. And I hate licking KitKat away. I've read this is the biggest reason introductions fail...owners move too quick out of guilty feelings.
 

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Yes on everything you posted and good on ya for watching Jackson Galaxy -- he really knows and loves cats, and his advice is absolutely inspired!  We may want to speed up the intros because we empathize with the new cat being lonely, but you're right -- good things take time, and in most cases, I've stuck to that plan because it works.  It sounds all in all like Moutside and KitKat are doing very, very well (and so are you!) -- so keep up the great work and very soon, you may be able to enjoy seeing a catpile of two cats curled up together, now that cool weather is coming, especially! 
 

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I am going to jump in here and offer a few suggestions.  Almost 4 years ago I brought in a feral/stray cat to live with my resident cat and my large dog.  The feral/stray boy had been TNR'd by me a few months prior.  I was able to sometimes pet him, but not pick him up.  I lured him into a carrier and brought him inside.  I used a spare bedroom where I had picked the bed up off the floor and blocked access behind all large pieces of furniture.  You really don't want them hiding in confined spaces.  Yet you do want safe hiding spots such as a hiding box in a cat tree, a cat carrier or even a simple box.  I had feliway plugged in and kept soft music running 24/7.  It took me 3 weeks to feel comfortable enough for him to get to the vet for vaccines and a check up.  This was step one before any introductions began.  After living inside the house for 2 months, we started scent swapping and moving forward.  The process seemed ok at first, but quickly escalated.  I knew I had moved too fast.  I really had to back up and start over with a new plan.  I read everything I could and tried so many things.  Here a few things that helped:

1.  Feliway diffusers everywhere.  I had to use 4 of them in my home.  This was an expense, but it worked so well.  I also used Comfort Zone spray in areas where I did not have an outlet.  This was very important when the cats were allowed time out together.

2.  I found a product called Composure liquid max to work so well.  The new cat I brought inside was very aggressive.  My resident cat was scared out of his mind.  I would give 1/2 t. 2x a day to the aggressive food ( mixed in wet food) and then 1/4 t. 2x a day to my resident cat.  It was such a mood stabilizer.

3.  I did lots of work with face to face intros when the time was right.  I did the sessions very short. always trying to end on a positive note instead of going to far and having to end with one cat attacking the other cat.  I used plain cooked chicken as my help.  I would sit on one side of the gate and feed the chicken to them both.  I also used a large dog cage to help too.  I was able to place my resident cat inside, over the cage with a sheet on 3 sides and allow the new cat to sniff safely.  I sometimes did this exercise 3-5x a day.  

4.  Do not move to the next step until all growling, hissing, chasing, posturing, etc..  has stopped.  If you move too fast, you will know.  Immediately move back.

5.  Watch your emotions.  Cats pick up on this.  When things were bad, I would cry.  This upset the cats and their behavior was not good.  I stopped setting lofty goals and just took it one day at a time.  I knew that I was this new kitty's only chance.  I had to make this work. 

6.  I used a screen door set up when the time was right.  I would leave it up when I was at home.  The new kitty could then hear, and see some of the comings and goings in the house.  He didn't feel so lonely.  I will post a picture below.  

My two took almost 1 solid year before they could both be out together day and night.  It was then a few months after the one year mark that they started to play.  It was magical.  

I also used the help of an animal communicator that I had been working with for years.  So don't give up.  It does take time time time, patience patience patience and love love love.  It is hard and there will be times when you want to give up.  Yet if you watch the cues from your cats and move slowly, I am almost certain it will all work out.  Just stay calm yourself.  I know this is hard, so very hard.  Yet it is important.  Work diligently each day.  

Here are some great articles and a video my Jackson Galaxy

http://www.thecatsite.com/a/the-ultimate-yet-simplified-guide-to-introducing-cats

http://www.catbehaviorassociates.com/a-simple-little-trick-to-use-during-new-cat-introductions/

http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/cat-behavior/introducing-your-cat-new-cat

http://jacksongalaxy.com/2010/10/01/cat-to-cat-introductions/


 

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Am I correct in thinking Moutside hasn't been spayed yet? If so, her hormones are likely playing into the equation here. I'd personally halt further introduction until she has recovered from her spay. Also, it can take about 45 days for her hormones to complete leave her body post-spay.

Aside from that, you've been given great advice! Continue to move at the cats' pace. Moutside has only been in the house for a few weeks and cat introductions can take several months to get everyone cohabitating together.
 
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sdufrene

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Wow! Your perseverance is so inspiring! I like the screen door. And thanks for the pics. Did take Moutside in for spaying, but it was already done. I have always felt this was someone's pet at some time. She has a little street attitude with her, but is far too loving, far too quick to be feral. But as she has lived in my backyard, rarely leaving for over six months, and no chip....
 
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sdufrene

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Okay here is where we are...
-I have not been able to open the door where new cat Moutside is living.. during the day and because of the construction workers. We are nearing the end of that...another week, maybe two.
-I have opened it sporadically with a gate in place for an hour or so and then every night for the last 4 days.
-There has been no hissing from Moutside for the last 4 days. Never from KitKat. Foe the first time tonight, both Moutside and resident cat KitKat ate within a foot of each other. This is new for KitKat, who seems to be full of apprehension.
-Also, I was able to pet both with neither getting upset and even picked up Moutside then picked up KitKat, moving from one side of the gate to the other. No problems.
-Though they are both getting close to the gate, KitKat has been the most apprehensive, never hissing, but very guarded.
-The gate has been open for quite some time tonight. No one is charging or hissing. But they're not rubbing noses and purring either.
-I plan to get Composure for KitKat as he has never shown signs of aggression but I also don't want him living in fear. I think his finally eating tonight is a good sign.
-So how long do I continue this? Should they actually make physical contact thru the gate before taking it down? Should we have happy visits, during the day first? Should there be a long period of only the gate in place first? I'm definitely planning on waiting till contractors are done before letting Moutside have the run of the house 24/7. And with that in mind, once they meet face to face, should I limit that as well, like I did the door being open? Trust their interactions thru the night from the get go?
-I've just read so much, but really wanted someone who's done it to weigh in. I think I've found that aspect in this forum. And I guess I need a lot of hand-holding.
 

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I would definitely err on the side of caution.  Taking the gate down or leaving it open right now might be way too soon.  You want many many many good experiences on either side of the gate before opening it.  If you move too quickly and there is an altercation, you will have to move back many steps thus prolonging the process.

You want them eating on either side of the gate just inches away for a week or more.  You also want to try interactions between the gate.  Try some toys such as a string or wand toy where you can play with each while the other watches.  Offer yummy food rewards such as plain cooked chicken or canned tuna or salmon.  You want the cats to associate each other with yummy food.

You really don't want them having nose to nose interactions at this point without the gate.  You really need days of positive eating on either side of the gate as well as positive time looking at each other or watching each other.

Are you doing some room swapping?  You can take Moutside out into the house for a bit while KitKat stays in Moutside rooms with the door shut for a bit.  You can do this numerous times during the day.
 
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sdufrene

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Thank you soooo much for backing me down a bit. I am having that guilt I've read about.... The one that says Moutside is miserable in a closed room and will be fine in "general population". And I have a friend who asked whether closing her off from us most of the time, will make her mean.

I've done the room swap thing only once. Honestly, I forgot about it. And my house is still upside down from the flood. Furniture still stacked everywhere... contractors finishing up baseboard replacement... Heck, I'm barely comfortable in here. The only rooms actually pulled together are my son's and Moutside's. KitKat and I are still sleeping on the sofa!

I guess there were things happening that made me feel I was isolating her unnecessarily. Moutside cries nonstop if the
door is gated, but open. Once closed, she settles down. So i thought that's probably because she can hear but not see us... And she tries to run out of the room ALL the time. I didn't secure the gate very well the other day and she politely walked, very slowly, very comfortably, into my den. As KitKat was out and about, I scooped her up and carried her back to her room. And then there's the fact that she wants snuggling BEFORE she'll make a move to eat.

But after saying that out loud, it sounds like she's acclimated to being inside, not necessarily sharing space with another cat. I need to focus on the relationship between the cats.

Thank you again. Its been hard, but I certainly don't want to ruin all I've done to get us this far. And I guess I needed permission to keep Moutside separate a bit longer.
 

shadowsrescue

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Thank you soooo much for backing me down a bit. I am having that guilt I've read about.... The one that says Moutside is miserable in a closed room and will be fine in "general population". And I have a friend who asked whether closing her off from us most of the time, will make her mean.

I've done the room swap thing only once. Honestly, I forgot about it. And my house is still upside down from the flood. Furniture still stacked everywhere... contractors finishing up baseboard replacement... Heck, I'm barely comfortable in here. The only rooms actually pulled together are my son's and Moutside's. KitKat and I are still sleeping on the sofa!

I guess there were things happening that made me feel I was isolating her unnecessarily. Moutside cries nonstop if the
door is gated, but open. Once closed, she settles down. So i thought that's probably because she can hear but not see us... And she tries to run out of the room ALL the time. I didn't secure the gate very well the other day and she politely walked, very slowly, very comfortably, into my den. As KitKat was out and about, I scooped her up and carried her back to her room. And then there's the fact that she wants snuggling BEFORE she'll make a move to eat.

But after saying that out loud, it sounds like she's acclimated to being inside, not necessarily sharing space with another cat. I need to focus on the relationship between the cats.

Thank you again. Its been hard, but I certainly don't want to ruin all I've done to get us this far. And I guess I needed permission to keep Moutside separate a bit longer.
It is very very hard to have them in a room of their own especially when they cry.  Yet try to remember that it is so much better than outside on their own.  My little guy learned to love his room.  It took months, but it was his safe room for a solid year.  

I do not believe at all it will make her mean by keeping her in the room.  Visit her often to play with her.  Consider the screen door idea if it will work.  I bought mine at Lowes for $20 and attached it with cheap ($4) tension rods.  I then kept the baby gate in the threshold for extra protection.  I only did this when I was home to supervise.  I could hear when my little guy ( Marvin is his name) would cry and I could talk with him and calm him.  Try the radio or tv if possible.  Sounds really help to calm them.

Composure really helped.  I found Amazon or Entirely Pets had the best price.  The liquid max worked so much better than the treats.  I could easily mix the liquid into the food.  With the treats it often took 6 per day.  Marvin didn't always like them.  

With your house being under construction, it might be best to wait on room swapping.  That's just too much stress.  Wait until it's done.  Moutside will be ok in the room.  Just do lots of visits and add in some yummy food treats with KitKat when possible.  

I had Marvin inside for 2 months before I even opened the door.  I had to get him to the vet first and that required time to get him into a carrier.  After 6 weeks, he was very calm and doing so much better.  

Time and patience are your friend.  I know how hard this is.  I was there and will be there again some day!  I am actually working with a new outside feral now.  So that is very challenging as I cannot easily separate them.  Lots of deep breaths!!  I used to want Composure for me!!!
 
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sdufrene

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How often and how long should I start with the screen door? I actually took a gate with a door and tied a thick plastic mesh with med size holes over the gate. I was worried either cat would get their heads stuck in the bars of the gate. Then I have a cheapie wooden baby gate stacked on top of that and about two feet of mesh stapled to the door jamb. The three enclose the whole doorway. I've seen moutside scale a fence in a heartbeat, so the walk-thru gate alone would have never sufficed. And since her one-time escape, I am dutiful about securing the gate appropriately.

And because I want to do this right.. How often and for how long should I visit Moutside?

I am currently going in three to four times a day for about 15 minutes each time. Then my son goes in three times a day for about 2-3 minutes.

Moutside is not willing to play yet, but she's a real snuggle bunny with me. So its all sit, pet, talk time. With my son, she is more apt to hide and sometimes hisses at him. Joe knows the drill about having an appropriate response to a scared cat and just reassures her. Also why he doesn't stay very long.

And then finally, am hoping the house will be back together within two or three weeks. By that time and following the suggestions I'm hoping to get for visitation time...how long should the room swapping thing last?

Thanks again for such wonderful support. I've also finally had a few minutes here and there to read other posts. Some great tips out there!
 

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Sorry I've not been around recently- I've just been crazy busy.

Overall, it sounds like everything is going really well :high5: Progress with introductions can be heartbreaking, and feeling guilty about the new cat being shut away is EXTREMELY common..but you have NOTHING to feel guilty about. In the grand scheme of things, this shut away phase doesn't last very long (in terms of a cat's lifetime), and it is SO much better to be cautious now that to create a situation where one or both cats are scared and stressed on a daily basis ;)

Regarding how long to spend with Moutside, it's a real balancing act. You have to make sure that KitKat is still happy and doesn't feel pushed out or abandoned, but with a new cat who's confident with you, I don't think there's such a thing as too much time! So long as KitKat is happy and relaxed, feel free to spend as much time as you want with Moutside. Picking times when KitKat is asleep can work well, as he won't miss you if you're not around him for a while.

There are no hard and fast rules with room swapping. You simply have to read your cats and trust your instincts. I would gradually extend the visitation time rather than make an abrupt transition. What you're looking for is the two of them calmly ignoring each other. Anything more than that is just a happy bonus!

It sounds like you're doing a great job at gauging when the cats are ready to progress. Follow your instincts and you won't go far wrong. As shadowsrescue shadowsrescue says, if you go too fast, you'll know very quickly.

Ignore people who are saying you'll make Moutside mean by shutting her away - they just don't have experience in this area. The reason so many use the introduction procedure that you're using is because it's tried and tested, it works, and it causes the least amount of stress to the cats (not to mention keeping everyone safe ;) ). Keep doing what you're doing, trust the process and trust yourself.
 
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