infrared for pain?

orbitalpunk · Sep 25, 2016

Hello,

I was wondering if anyone has any experience purchasing a infrared device to help with hip related to either nerve or arthritis issue? I have a 20 year old cat and her walking has deteriorated over the last 10 years and its gotten to the point where she drag her back legs to get to the food bowl. The vet felt its nerve related and suggested inferred laser treatment. Its very costly and I can't go to the vet often enough to get big results and I wondered if anyone is doing something similar with a device that can be bought for home use.

Thanks

2Cats4everLoved · Sep 25, 2016

orbitalpunk said:
Hello,

I was wondering if anyone has any experience purchasing a infrared device to help with hip related to either nerve or arthritis issue? I have a 20 year old cat and her walking has deteriorated over the last 10 years and its gotten to the point where she drag her back legs to get to the food bowl. The vet felt its nerve related and suggested inferred laser treatment. Its very costly and I can't go to the vet often enough to get big results and I wondered if anyone is doing something similar with a device that can be bought for home use.

Thanks

Interesting, I've never heard of this before.

Wow, 20 years old, that's terrific. I'm sorry she's not well and slowing down. What is your sweet girls name.

I hope someone has some experience to share with you.

Sorry I wasn't much help.

orbitalpunk · Sep 25, 2016

Hi 2Cats,

Her name is Tammy. She's actually over 20. Just don't have the exact year off hand.

Yeah, I use a holistic vet and they actually use lasers for this, but consumers can't buy lasers over the counter but they make similar devices using LED's. I've seen them for horses. And sports medicine use similar devices for things like knee injuries and nerve damage.

It would be great to get input from someone before investing in such a device.

Thank you for your reply.

2Cats4everLoved · Sep 25, 2016

orbitalpunk said:
Hi 2Cats,

Her name is Tammy. She's actually over 20. Just don't have the exact year off hand.

Yeah, I use a holistic vet and they actually use lasers for this, but consumers can't buy lasers over the counter but they make similar devices using LED's. I've seen them for horses. And sports medicine use similar devices for things like knee injuries and nerve damage.

It would be great to get input from someone before investing in such a device.

Thank you for your reply.

I've actually used one on my knee from a sports orthopedic doctor who specializes in sports injuries. I had no idea they were used on animals.

If I hear about anyone who knows, I"ll pass along the information.

Tammy, so cute. God bless, 20 something. Wow. That's amazing. Best to you and Tammy. - Is Tammy your Avatar pic...

orbitalpunk · Sep 25, 2016

Yep, Thats her. Taken about a year ago. She's the sweetest cat I ever owned. Never harmed a thing in her life.

2Cats4everLoved · Sep 25, 2016

orbitalpunk said:
Yep, Thats her. Taken about a year ago. She's the sweetest cat I ever owned. Never harmed a thing in her life.

She's gorgeous. I would love to see more pictures of her. hint hint. LOL

dave darling · Sep 26, 2016

Our siamese has back pain and we got her a heated cat bed and she loves it! I did alot of research before we bought it and apparently it works very well for cats with arthritis and other chronic pain. They are only about $!00, I would highly recommend buying one.

orbitalpunk · Sep 27, 2016

2Cats4everLoved said:
Dave Darling said:

Our siamese has back pain and we got her a heated cat bed and she loves it! I did alot of research before we bought it and apparently it works very well for cats with arthritis and other chronic pain. They are only about $!00, I would highly recommend buying one.

Click to expand...

Thats a great suggestion. Thank you. Hopefully I can try that as well as an infrared device. I just hope I can find some input since they are a bit of an investment. Its also hard seeing her drag her body across the floor everyday. I try not to carry her all the time in fears of further muscle atrophy. Another treatment the doctors did was acupuncture which did help but it was very costly and I am disabled in some ways myself and can't get to the vet often enough. So if anyone knows of any online resources where I can learn to apply acupuncture for her, myself, that would greatly appreciated. She's has a other issues like epilepsy and CRF (which brings 5 other issues ) but I've been able to get them under control except the walking.

2Cats4everLoved · Sep 27, 2016

orbitalpunk said:
Thats a great suggestion. Thank you. Hopefully I can try that as well as an infrared device. I just hope I can find some input since they are a bit of an investment. Its also hard seeing her drag her body across the floor everyday. I try not to carry her all the time in fears of further muscle atrophy. Another treatment the doctors did was acupuncture which did help but it was very costly and I am disabled in some ways myself and can't get to the vet often enough. So if anyone knows of any online resources where I can learn to apply acupuncture for her, myself, that would greatly appreciated. She's has a other issues like epilepsy and CRF (which brings 5 other issues ) but I've been able to get them under control except the walking.

She's a stunning beauty. I hope she finds relief from pain. @Margret do you know of anyone on TCS that specializes in acupuncture or natural remedies for pain for an older kitty. Thanks...

Margret · Sep 27, 2016

2Cats4everLoved said:
Thats a great suggestion. Thank you. Hopefully I can try that as well as an infrared device. I just hope I can find some input since they are a bit of an investment. Its also hard seeing her drag her body across the floor everyday. I try not to carry her all the time in fears of further muscle atrophy. Another treatment the doctors did was acupuncture which did help but it was very costly and I am disabled in some ways myself and can't get to the vet often enough. So if anyone knows of any online resources where I can learn to apply acupuncture for her, myself, that would greatly appreciated. She's has a other issues like epilepsy and CRF (which brings 5 other issues ) but I've been able to get them under control except the walking.

She's a stunning beauty. I hope she finds relief from pain. @Margret do you know of anyone on TCS that specializes in acupuncture or natural remedies for pain for an older kitty. Thanks...

No, I think that would have to be someone local. I would, of course, be happy to send her some Reiki if requested. (http://www.thecatsite.com/t/285757/reiki-offer)

"Infrared" is just a fancy way of saying "heat." Yes, there are specific infrared devices that can deliver deep heat; a diathermy machine, or ultrasound, for instance, but the old fashioned rice sock is a super easy way to deliver infrared to a cat. The question is whether it will help the pain or not. Heat is relaxing, and therefore can be pain relieving. However, if there's inflammation the heat can make it worse, by dilating the blood vessels.

The rule of thumb on human injuries (sprains, twisted joints, and such) is cold only for the first 24 hours, to reduce swelling, after which you switch to hot and cold contrast. With humans that generally means hot water for 2 minutes followed by 30 seconds with an ice cube. With cats I would suggest avoiding the water aspect of that; stick to a hot rice sock and some kind of ice pack. The heat dilates the blood vessels, pulling blood in to the injured area, then the cold causes the blood vessels to constrict, pushing the blood out. When you do it a few times it greatly increases circulation without causing inflammation. The really important parts are:

The ratio of heat to cold -- 2 minutes of heat for 30 seconds of cold.
Do not burn the patient. (I know -- duh. Worth mentioning anyway.) You want it hot enough for the cold to feel good afterwards, but not painfully hot. If in doubt, err on the side of safety.
Start with heat and end with cold. You want the patient warming up after the treatment, to avoid getting a chill.

When this is done properly, the cold feels extremely good to the patient, it does not cause tension the way cold so often can. Also, make sure the areas that aren't being treated have adequate covering. This is part of avoiding a chill.

When Sweet Thing developed arthritis the vet prescribed 1/4 baby aspirin for her. You have to be really careful with cats and aspirin, though. I'd ask your vet before trying that.

Try your local phone directory for acupuncture. You would want someone who specializes in animals, and it's important that they keep a separate set of needles for each patient. My chiropractor does acupuncture, and I know he does horses as well as humans. If you like I could ask him for a referral to someone in your area, @orbitalpunk. For natural remedies, you want to be very careful. Many of our drugs are based on natural remedies (aspirin, for instance, is a substance found in willow bark), so "natural" is not a synonym for "safe." I'll ask my friend, Sara, about this and get back to you. She knows a lot about both herbal remedies and cats.

Margret

Margret · Sep 27, 2016

I've just been doing a bit of online research.

I'm very leery of the notion of doing acupuncture without proper training; I can just imagine too many ways for it to go wrong. However, have you ever heard of acupressure (also known as reflexology)? Basically, you identify the correct acupuncture spot and apply finger pressure to that spot. I even found a book on the subject, with specific reference to cats:
@orbitalpunk, the book is reasonably priced, assuming you get the electronic version, and getting it electronically means getting it immediately. But, you may not actually need the book. You've seen your vet do acupuncture on Tammy; just use the same points the vet used. Just one finger, press firmly, and move in small circles. If you have any doubts, call your vet and ask.

Margret

orbitalpunk · Sep 27, 2016

Hi @Margret

Thank you for your responses. I will definitely read that book about feline acupressure.

I think infrared was the wrong term. My vet was using lasers. But it was my understand certain lasers are not allowed to be purchased without a license so I thought my only choice was infrared or LED based device such as the one by this company http://www.emersonww.com/PetPain.html

This the on I believe my vet uses. http://www.litecure.com/companion/ourproduct/ctl/

The company also has a video about it for pet owners.

tammyaccu.jpg

orbitalpunk
Sep 27, 2016

Margret · Sep 28, 2016

I just ran across this article: http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/12/04/growing-cat-friendly-herbs.aspx

The one that caught my eye was licorice root for arthritis.

Now, arthritis and nerve damage are two very different things. Arthritis is either rheumatoid arthritis, which is an auto-immune disease, or osteoarthritis, which is cumulative damage to cartilage in the joints. Nerve damage can have a variety of causes -- my Pretzel had nerve damage in her front left leg caused (probably) by falling and catching herself with that paw and hanging there for a long time. I have some nerve damage in my left hand caused by a badly broken arm four years ago. I also have some nerve damage in my toes caused by diabetic neuropathy, and have had nerve damage in my belly caused by gall bladder surgery (in the days before laparascopic gall bladder surgery -- I still have a huge scar, and the nerves all along that scar were cut).

The nerve damage in my belly healed over time -- the cut nerves managed to re-attach themselves and heal. The damage in my hand is still healing. The neuropathy in my toes may or may not be a done deal, but I'm taking supplements that may help that. I would not presume to recommend those supplements for a cat. I'm not totally clear on how and why they're supposed to work on humans (though I'm comfortable with their safety for humans); and they're presumably specific to diabetic neuropathy, not generalized nerve damage.

I think if the diagnosis is nerve damage the most important question must be "How were the nerves damaged?" Inflammation? Injury? Some underlying health problem, like diabetes (unlikely, I think)? This isn't a normal part of aging, there must be some other cause, and I believe that any effective treatment would take that cause into account.

The video didn't give any real explanation of how the laser is supposed to actually help, so I did a Google search, which yielded this website: http://www.robertsonfamilychiro.com/laser-neuropathy-pain-treatment-chandler.htm

How Does Laser Therapy Help My Neuropathy?
Laser therapy transmits an energy that increases blood flow, oxygen to cells, and nutrients for tissue repair. The cold laser therapy also decreases inflammation, swelling, and pain signals to the brain. Endorphins and encephalin are released to further decrease the pain sensation. This combination improves nerve healing and function.

Cold laser increases fibroblast or collagen production in injury healing. Enzymes are stimulated to speed the healing process, cell repair, and tissue regeneration. Some enzymes in the body create ATP, which is like "gasoline for cells." Cells use ATP for energy to heal and repair. Injured cells often have lower amounts of ATP for repair. Laser therapy increases cells ATP storage and gives it more energy to heal and repair.

Nerves have a tendency to heal very slowly and laser therapy speeds the repair processes. Lasers have been shown to increase nerve function and reduce pain by increasing the enzyme activity, and speed nerve healing.

The end result for the patient is that laser therapy can help nerves to heal and reduce the painful neuropathy symptoms.

Okay, the salient points seem to be:

Cold laser.
It increases blood flow, decreases inflammation, and it feels good.
It stimulates enzymes that speed healing.

Regarding those points:

I think that by "cold laser" they mean that the heating is deep inside, not at the surface. This used to be done primarily by ultrasound (which requires a gel on the skin) or diathermy (which involves a large, noisy machine). Especially for furry people, lasers are a distinct improvement.
Hot and cold contrast also increases blood flow and feels good. It won't necessarily decrease inflammation, but it may. Certainly it shouldn't make it worse.
Enzyme activity? I don't know. You say your vet is holistic; I believe you might wish to ask him about supplements which could handle this part of the job.

Now, lasers are not inherently illegal. Most of us own laser pointers, the ubiquitous red dot that our cats love to chase. I don't know in what way a therapeutic laser differs from a simple laser pointer. It could be just that you don't have to hold the button down continually while using it. It could be that the wavelength is slightly different, or the power level greater. It's obvious from the video that they aren't keeping the laser pointed at a single spot for any significant period of time; they're being very careful to constantly move it around over the entire area. But I'm moving farther and farther into speculation here. I think you need to ask an expert, and the best one I can think of is your vet.

Margret

orbitalpunk · Sep 28, 2016

Thanks @Margret,

I can say that cold lasers are usually ones that pulsate and are not continuous so to not burn tissue. I have sever debilitating tinnitus and I am currently using a Class 1 laser to repair the hair cells in my ears and it too is consider a cold laser because of the pulsation. Also known as LLLT (low level laser therapy)

My vet has a laser, and I've had them administer it before to Tammy. I am just looking for a reasonably affordable device that someone has had success with at home. I don't think my vet will help me in finding a home device as that would take away from their business.

I'll keep searching.

Thank you for your time and in put. I greatly appreciate it.

Margret · Sep 28, 2016

orbitalpunk said:
Thanks @Margret,

I can say that cold lasers are usually ones that pulsate and are not continuous so to not burn tissue. I have sever debilitating tinnitus and I am currently using a Class 1 laser to repair the hair cells in my ears and it too is consider a cold laser because of the pulsation. Also known as LLLT (low level laser therapy)

My vet has a laser, and I've had them administer it before to Tammy. I am just looking for a reasonably affordable device that someone has had success with at home. I don't think my vet will help me in finding a home device as that would take away from their business.

I'll keep searching.

Thank you for your time and in put. I greatly appreciate it.

Okay, so the laser the vet is using isn't considered a "cold laser"?

I noticed that in the video they were continually moving the laser. I don't know whether that was to prevent burning or simply to completely cover the territory. However, I wonder whether your Class 1 laser could be useful for Tammy, even if it isn't exactly the same as the one the vet is using. Certainly the website I found seemed to think that cold laser therapy is useful for damaged nerves.

Actually, I meant that your vet might be able to suggest herbal remedies -- a holistic vet seems to be exactly the right person to ask about that. And it's perfectly legitimate for you to ask for more information about how the laser is helping -- is it, for instance, working by providing deep heat, or is there some other mechanism? These are exactly the kinds of questions that I ask doctors all the time when we're talking about my own health, and they're the kind of questions that concerned pet owners regularly ask their vets. You don't have to say that you want to know because you're looking for a cheaper alternative -- you just want to understand more about Tammy's treatment. What you do with the information is your own business.

The most basic rule of medicine is "First, do no harm." So, you know more about cold lasers than I do. The question becomes, if you use your cold laser on Tammy, could it harm her? If the answer to that is "No," then I can't think of any reason not to try it and see whether it helps.

Regarding your tinnitus, I used to have a major problem with that. Then someone suggested that it might be caused by aspirin. Sure enough, when I stopped using aspirin it gradually went away. But even one normal dose aspirin and it returns within 24 hours. Take it for what it's worth.

Margret

dave darling · Oct 3, 2016

What breed is she? Is she a siamese or ragdoll?

orbitalpunk · Oct 3, 2016

she's a gray point balinese which is part of the rag doll family. very similar to the seal point.

Margret · Oct 5, 2016

@orbitalpunk, I've just been doing some more online research about cold lasers, thinking about my husband and myself (we both have some diabetic neuropathy), and I found this page, which may give you more information about whether the laser you already have is appropriate for use on Tammy: http://www.coldlasers.org/coldlaserguide/. This website appears to have a lot of information about various brands of cold lasers, the research on what they're good for (including pets), prices, legality, the whole schmeer.

Hope it helps you. And, by the way, thank you very much for bringing this possibility to my attention.

Margret

orbitalpunk · Oct 5, 2016

@Margret , Thank you for the link. There is a lot of good information there that helped backup what I've read else where which is reassuring. The laser I purchased for my Tinnitus is specifically made for the ears as the diodes look like ear plugs and go into the ear canal and very pinpoint. It couldn't cover much area for say like a hip of a cat. And its probably not powerful enough since the tissue is thicker. Below is a photo I found on their website showing what it looks like. I'm going to read more info on this website tho and then decide.

laser.jpeg

orbitalpunk
Oct 5, 2016

In the mean time, my friend took Tammy to the vet today and is there right now for Laser Therapy and Acupuncture so hopefully that will help some. I really need her walking so I don't have to keep her in diapers. This was taking 10min ago at the vet during her acupuncture session. You can see the little light blue acupuncture needles in her. She looks puzzled as what the heck is going on. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised that she's purring in that photo. She's a purr machine like you wouldn't believe.

tammyaccu.jpeg

orbitalpunk
Oct 5, 2016

infrared for pain?

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