Advice persistent spraying behavior?

anne3007

TCS Member
Thread starter
Adult Cat
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
121
Purraise
17
Hey everyone,

There are probably more threads about this subject, but I am looking for advice in this situation. First, I'd like to say, English isn't my native language so hopefully you'll all understand me well. I live in Europe and I think it's good to post this on an international forum, since there may be other helping products or suggestions which are not known over here yet. :)

So I have 3 cats. Pim is a male cat (neutered) and is now 7 years old. He is with me since he was a kitten. Unfortunately, he isn't very well socialized during the first weeks of his life. And maybe it's also just his character. However, it means that strangers usually scares him (though it obviously makes a difference whether a man is entering my house, or young busy children or a female). With men , and more than 2 people, he usually immediately rans upstairs or goes outside. It may take a while before he trusts someone. Our bond is very strong though. He really likes to cuddle with me, greets me, likes to have my attention. 
My father can hardly believe that , because when he enters my house, Pim runs away and he usually comes back when my father has left the house.

Furthermore, he is very sensitive. I know all cats don't like change, but Pim is more sensitve than the others.
My other two cats are 2 female cats; both neutered. Daisy is 3 years old and Lily is approximately 4 years old. I moved a few years ago because I was going to live on my own and I took Pim with me. He was the only cat in the house at the time. He was used living with other cats. When we adopted Pim, he was our third cat in the house and this never was a problem for him.
Once I lived on my own and Pim and I were all settled, I adopted Daisy from a shelter and they get along quite well. They even lay next to each other sometimes.
About one year later, I had this mother cat with 5 kittens in my house, kept in a special room designed for cats, because I help a shelter with socializing kittens. This was my first litter and after this beautiful experience I didn't took other cats from the shelter into my house, also due to the fact I didn't want to cause my cats any more stress. 
Anyway, the kittens grew up here and they got adopted when they were old enough to leave their mom. From the beginning I had a very special bond with the mother cat and I decided to keep her. 
I called the mother cat Lily and she stayed in this cat room for weeks since she had all her kittens, and after that, she needed surgery for sterilization, so she never really had seen any other place in my house.
As soon as the time was there, I slowly introduced Lily to my other two cats. I opened the door slightly, so they could not touch each other, but they could actually see each other. I kept doing this and this way my cats got slowly introduced with each other.

Since I know a cat behaviorist and I am very interested in cat behavior and have done quite much research and went to cat (behavior) lectures etc, I knew this was a good way to introduce them.

However, I still have this problem with Pim. He keeps spraying in the house. And I think it started when I adopted Lily. I am not sure if he was spraying when she was with her kittens, apart from Pim and Daisy, though I do remember that Pim and Daisy didn't show any stress or changing behavior.
Lily lives here now for 2 years and Daisy and Lily usually get along well. But I think Lily causes Pim stress for some reason, though there are also moments they eat next to each other, lay on the bed not far away from each other..but he is usually extra aware when Lily's is in his surrounding.
Lily is not bossy or anything, but she has more confidence than Pim. 

I think I posted another thread about this subject too about a year ago, though I am not sure. However, I wanted to ask you for advice again. I do not smell anything but sometimes, when I am cleaning the house, I can see the urine spots. Most common places are: the front door, the door in the hallway, the radiator in the living room and upstairs, a closet upstairs (usually in corners), and the attic. I sleep in the attic and he sleeps there too, as well as my 3 cats. 
When you walk upstairs to the attic, right next to you there is a curtain and behind that there is a shelf with some stuff on it. And I was kinda shocked last week, I don't clean this small wall very often :$ but I saw quite a lot of urine over there. It made me aware that Pim had a lot of stress and is still dealing with a lot of stress.

I know Pim is the only one who is doing it because I have never seen my other cats doing it and I still see Pim actually spraying. Another popular spot is the tv cabinet. It's placed in the middle of my living room and next to it, on the left, there is a chair. (And in between I placed a scratching post)
When I watch tv and Pim enters the living room, he often first walks to the tv cabinet and sprays briefly. Sometimes I am aware that is going to spray and I ask his attention with a kind voice. That works for then, but probably he still sprays over there when I am not at home or when I am too late to stop him.
Actually, I do understand he sprays on places like this. It makes sense: these are places where people often walk and /or where Lily sleeps or whatever.
Though I find it strange that he also sprays on a desk upstairs in the middle of the room..
Anyways, I am terrible at keeping it brief, but I find it sad for him that he probably experience lots of stress.
There are periods when it seems like the behavior has changed a bit and he doesn't spray, though my house is quite big and I can't see the urine very well on the furnutire. 

Ok, this is what I have tried:
Of course I went to the vet to see if he had any problems with his bladder. His urine was perfectly normal. So, I also did a bladder puncture and an ultrasound. Was perfectly normal too . Only one time, last year, he had cystitis, but after treating it , his urine got back to normal again.
When Pim got neutered as a kitten, they couldn't find a testicle. So they had to do surgery. I read that some male cats can have spraying issues because it might be possible that they didn't remove all of 'it' and he still might produce hormones or something.
I talked with my vet about that (she is the best vet I have ever seen and I trust her completely), and she checked on him but she said that this was not the case. So this couldn't be a cause of spraying either. Medical reasons were officially excluded,, so it has to be a behavior problem. I also don't notice any other health issues, and with that, and the check ups and advice from my vet I know it is just his behavior. 
My vet recommended a cat behaviorist and since I know a behaviorist I could ask her, but I don't see her very often and it's not that I know her very well. I am also not sure whether she does visits over here, which is something I can always ask of course. I usually only see her when there is a cat event / lecture or anything.
I want you to know that my cats mean anything to me, they are my babies. But I find it hard to ask for a cat behaviorist, since I think that this will cost a lot of money (though I am prepared to do anything for my cats as long as it works and as long as I don't get into huge financial problems). It's actually the last thing on my list. I know pretty much about cats though I don't want to say that I know as much as a cat behaviorist! Obviously not. But I ask myself the question what she may see what I don't see, and what she will advice and I didn't think of myself first.

I tried Feliway spray and Feliway plug ins, which I still use sometimes but I think it doesn't change anything. When I see urine spots I clean it with Urine Off, a special product so the cat won't smell his urine spots no longer. I try to keep things the same as possible, no big changings, lots of people in the house every time. I try to make Pim feel more comfortable when he is in Lily's surrounding by placing treats on the floor and then they will eat the treats right next to each other. They never fight and barely growl or anything..it's just that it seems that Lily makes him feel anxious or nervous.
I also tried homeopathic remedies (perhaps not used long enough) and the Calm version of Royal Canin but all these things don't seem to work.
I think it's also part of his character which is impossible to change. I mean, he will never be a confident cat but that is okay. But I would love to see him having more peace and rest.
Putting a cat away is not an option by the way. Pim and I are very bonded , which is also the case for Lily and me. I don't want to sound selfish but we both have a very special bond and I know it will effect them both when I would put one cat away.

Sorry for this super long story. Does anyone has any advice, tips, products I didn't think of? Or would you also recommend a cat behaviorist and do you think there is a big chance that this will make a difference? I know we cannot predict the future but I was just wondering....
 

Lyzzie

La Folle Aux Chats
Alpha Cat
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
690
Purraise
440
Location
La Rochelle, France
Well, you ruled out a lot of things, so as you said, I also think it's behavioral.

Here are some questions :

- How many litter boxes do you have, and where are they in the house?

- Do you have vertical space for them to go onto? Like shelves, cat trees,...

Maybe Pim would be more confident up high, where he can survey the territory, and get out of Lily's way if he wants to.

Or maybe Lily would like it best, and leave the floor to Pim, which would also make him more confident.

My two cents :

Pim is threatened by Lily. He's marking to surround himself with his scent, which makes him feel safer. He needs to be more confident in his territory, and you can help him.

Keep it up with the Urine off, but with the amount of spots he's spraying, I would get a black light, and check the whole house. It's important that there is no smell remaining whatsoever. Then you can "catify".

Put up shelves, high cat trees, anything you can (and afford) to expand the cats' territory.
 When you walk upstairs to the attic, right next to you there is a curtain and behind that there is a shelf with some stuff on it.
That could be Pim's safe place from now on if he's the only cat to go there. Since there are shelves, maybe put up a bed for him on one of them. He needs things that are only his to own.

I would start plugging in the Feliway again for now, to help soothe everyone.

I would also try and play with Pim alone when Lily can watch, and play with both of them, even the three of them at the same time. End the play with a treat, or a meal. If they can associate each other being together with good things like play and food, it's going to help.

Can we have some pics of the kittys? And what's #3's name?
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #3

anne3007

TCS Member
Thread starter
Adult Cat
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
121
Purraise
17
Hello Lyzzie,

Thank you so much for your reply! Really appreciate that. :)

First, I'd like to answer your questions:

How many litter boxes do you have, and where are they in the house?
I have 3 cats and I know I should have at least 4 litter boxes. However, all 3 cats almost always go out when they need to urinate / defecate. Lily is the only one that uses the litter box sometimes, in the winter she use the litter box more often. Yet I have two large litter boxes upstairs and nowadays I think she use it 2 or 3 times a week for peeing and/or pooping.. Do you think I still should place more litter boxes? Now I have to clean it not quite often because they do almost anything outdoors..
 

- Do you have vertical space for them to go onto? Like shelves, cat trees,...
Well, I am kinda addicted to buy stuff for my cats. 

And some more pics ! 

 Pim and Daisy 

 Daisy
 Lily
 Lily

 Pim
 Pim :)

Thank you so much for your message. I am definitely will do something with your advice. (If anyone replies, I might reply later since I will go abroad tomorrow and will be back Friday evening).
 

Lyzzie

La Folle Aux Chats
Alpha Cat
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
690
Purraise
440
Location
La Rochelle, France
That's a great update! I love the fact that Pim killed the mouse in front of Lily. That's gotta be good for his confidence!

And your kitties are gorgeous
I admit, I have a thing for Pim. And Daisy. And Lily. Well, I can't choose


I like your plan!

If Lily doesn't want to play, that's OK, she can watch while you play with Pim and/or Daisy. Maybe she'll join in on the fun, who knows?

I would add one more litter box, maybe not too far from his attic bed? What you could also do is keep a "pee journal" of some kind, where you would write the time and place where Pim sprayed, and the events leading up to it. We are hot on Lily's trail right now, but it may be something else. A tom cat in the backyard, or one he sees through the windows?

About the attic bed, have you shown Pim where it's at? You can also rub a towel on Pim's cheeks, and then put it in his bed. That way, his scent will be in it, and he will know it's his. You could try catnip, but I'd be worried about attracting Daisy and Lily to the bed, which would defeat the purpose.
 When Pim got neutered as a kitten, they couldn't find a testicle. So they had to do surgery. I read that some male cats can have spraying issues because it might be possible that they didn't remove all of 'it' and he still might produce hormones or something.
I talked with my vet about that (she is the best vet I have ever seen and I trust her completely), and she checked on him but she said that this was not the case. So this couldn't be a cause of spraying either.
When you say that she checked, what did she do exactly? It is possible that he is still producing testosterone. I read somewhere that the best (and cheapest) way to check that is to look at the penis. A cat that doesn't produce testosterone will not have barbs on it. I have no idea if this technique is legit or not, so better do some research or check with your vet.

Does his urine smells at all?
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #5

anne3007

TCS Member
Thread starter
Adult Cat
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
121
Purraise
17
So many thanks for your reply!
I am a bit late with responding as I was in London for a few days.

The first thing I saw when I got back home and went to the shed outside, was seeing Pim hunting and trying to kill a prey. It was dark outside so I couldn't see if the prey was already dead or anything. This morning I woke up and when I went to the living room I found a dead mouse, surrounded in blood. I guess that's the prey he was catching when I came home and this is my 'welcome home' present xD Haha.

I like the things you say about my cats. Thank you so much, that's really sweet! :) I also like and appreciate your advice. It sounds like you know a lot about cats! ;)

Today it seemed like Pim was the confident one instead of Lily. He wanted to play with Lily but she wasn't into that so she got a bit irritated (no fighting though). She walked away from him. I know cat behavior is complicated but sometimes I totally do not understand this whole thing. He is usually the insecure one and Lily the confident one, but sometimes he seems more confident out of nowhere and wants to make contact with Lily. An opposite situation.

But you are right. There might be other causes for his spraying behavior, like cats outside. I know there is one cat outside who is kinda rude (I like all cats really, but I don't like this one because he is causing my cats stress and he constantly wants to be in their territory. None of my cats like him. There are quite a lot of cats in the neighborhood but I don't see them having any trouble with the other cats, though I am not with them 24/7 of course.) I only know that this long haired neighborhood cat has caused some stress and is still causing stress because everytime he wants to be in my yard. 

Thanks for all the other tips you gave me. I have many toys including valerian- and catnip toys. He loves them both. I recently bought a new catnip toy and he plays with it every day now.

I haven't showed the bed at the attic to Pim yet; as I went to London and it was a bit chaotic over here. But I will definitely do that tomorrow or tonight ;)

My vet checked exactly what you are saying, I just didn't know how to describe it in English, haha. ;) She looked at the penis and she was sure that he did not produce testosterone because there were no barbs on it. I'm not sure either if it's then excluded for a 100 percent. I do think so. I also trust my vet and she was very certain this is a behavioral problem, after she has thoroughly examined him medically.

Usually I (and others) don't smell the urine spots. But it is like it depends on how much he sprays. I recently smelled urine near the closet. He sprays against the closet and then it falls down on the floor. I could smell that. I don't know if that has to do with the amount of urine and/or the place he is spraying, as well as the time? If he did spray an hour ago, is it more likely I will smell it, then when he sprayed 24 hours ago?
 

Lyzzie

La Folle Aux Chats
Alpha Cat
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
690
Purraise
440
Location
La Rochelle, France
Your vet seems great, I would trust her judgment.

Are you sure only Pim is spraying? I don't know if urine smells most when fresh or not.

About the cat in the yard, I don't really know what to do about it, sorry. I'll try and do some research.
 
Top