Primal vs Stella and Chewy's

whatsonemore · Aug 28, 2016

That's interesting about Japan. Can you tell me where you got that information so I can share it with NL so they don't scare people with that, because to most pet owners, anything with china in regards to our pet food scares us. Not sure if you read NL's FAQ page, but here's their excerpt about Taurine....

I have always been told that cats need taurine in their diets, so why don't I see taurine on your cat food packaging ingredient panels?

Yes, cats require the amino acid taurine in their diets and AAFCO has established a minimum of .10% in dry food and a minimum of .20% in canned food in their Nutritional Profile for cats.

When taurine is listed as an ingredient in a product’s ingredient panel, this means the base diet contains inadequate levels of natural taurine and the producer has added a man-made synthetic form of this required amino acid to the diet mixture to meet adequacy. No taurine is listed in any Nature’s Logic ingredient panel because the natural ingredients of the diet contain adequate amounts of natural taurine from the high levels of meat, poultry, and organ tissue ingredients. This is the way cats should derive all their needed protein, including taurine. In an independent analysis of Nature’s Logic dry food, it contained 60% more taurine than the AAFCO required minimum. During our cat feeding trial, the blood work showed the taurine levels were well above the AAFCO required minimums. Click here to see the bloodwork results.

It should also be of interest to all concerned pet owners that it has been publicized that almost all man-made synthetic taurine added to pet foods is manufactured and imported from China.(Click here to see news article.)

Just to be safe, I've sent the company an e-mail asking them to confirm that their cat and dog food formulas are the same.

missmimz · Aug 28, 2016

WhatsOneMore said:
That's interesting about Japan. Can you tell me where you got that information so I can share it with NL so they don't scare people with that, because to most pet owners, anything with china in regards to our pet food scares us. Not sure if you read NL's FAQ page, but here's their excerpt about Taurine....

I have always been told that cats need taurine in their diets, so why don't I see taurine on your cat food packaging ingredient panels?

Yes, cats require the amino acid taurine in their diets and AAFCO has established a minimum of .10% in dry food and a minimum of .20% in canned food in their Nutritional Profile for cats.

When taurine is listed as an ingredient in a product’s ingredient panel, this means the base diet contains inadequate levels of natural taurine and the producer has added a man-made synthetic form of this required amino acid to the diet mixture to meet adequacy. No taurine is listed in any Nature’s Logic ingredient panel because the natural ingredients of the diet contain adequate amounts of natural taurine from the high levels of meat, poultry, and organ tissue ingredients. This is the way cats should derive all their needed protein, including taurine. In an independent analysis of Nature’s Logic dry food, it contained 60% more taurine than the AAFCO required minimum. During our cat feeding trial, the blood work showed the taurine levels were well above the AAFCO required minimums. Click here to see the bloodwork results.

It should also be of interest to all concerned pet owners that it has been publicized that almost all man-made synthetic taurine added to pet foods is manufactured and imported from China.(Click here to see news article.)

Just to be safe, I've sent the company an e-mail asking them to confirm that their cat and dog food formulas are the same.

I think the company is subpar and doesn't really know much about cat nutrition. Their "facts" about taurine and their food doesn't actually make any sense. They claim they're not supplementing with taurine, yet the dog version of rabbit says taurine is (n/a) yet the cat version has taurine listed. If they're only listing naturally occurring taurine, why isn't it available on the dog version? Taurine is too important NOT to supplement with, especially with rabbit which is naturally low. When i feed whole ground rabbit, for example, I add taurine, as do basically every other raw feeder, because rabbit is so low. I doubt this company is even using a whole rabbit, yet they think their taurine is enough? Heart contains the most taurine, yet it's not even listed in their food. Alnutrin, for example, sources taurine from Japan, as do most companies. If you buy Taurine at whole foods, or any other place most brands say the product is from Japan. They produce the majority of taurine. Feline Natural, for example, also doesn't add taurine, but they include heart, very high up on the ingredients list. I really don't trust a cat food that doesn't supplement taurine and doesn't list heart on the ingredient list.

As a side note, the ash content in their canned foods is insane, 11-14%?! that's so ridiculously high for a canned food I wouldn't feed that to my cats if someone gave it to me for free.

whatsonemore · Aug 28, 2016

Very interesting. We don't have a whole foods in the area, but it would make sense that a pet food company would probably go the cheapest route since they use more of it and don't tend to usually as be as concerned about quality as the people version of products. In any case, thanks for your two cents.

kirathecat · Aug 28, 2016

LisaMarie12 said:
I have used Fresh is Best FD turkey, my cats really loved it.

The pros: the food comes super vacuumed packed, the nuggets are small, bite sized. The food is the lowest in phosphorus I've seen among FD foods (bc I have one cat who might be boderline CKD). FIB customer service is excellent, I've had some wonderfully thorough email exchanges in response to questions I've had re FIB with Stacy. Also, I ordered my product on Monday afternoon and asked to get it by Weds which they did for me at no extra cost for shipping.

They do use carrots in the FD food which is a starchy carb, however, the carb % overall is still low for FIB.

The cons: the nuggets take a bit more time and mashing to hydrate than either Priml or S&C. Also, I need to find out about the sourcing of FIB's bone meal as I've read that bone meal could be high in lead or other contaminants.

Once I find out about the bone meal, if I feel comfortable with the sourcing, I will purchase the FD food again.

FIB makes excellent FD treats as well.

As far as how FIB compares to S&C and Primal:

S&C uses minimal vegetable / fruits in their food although they just started adding pea fiber to their new formulas, in addition to sodium bisulphate menadione - synthetic vitamin K, previously only in their fish formulas.
Synthetic vit K is a questionable ingredient, not a necessity for poultry formulas. Also, SC is far too bony and high in phosphorus for my comfort level, I don't trust the company for various other reasons.

Primal uses more vegetable / fruits, however, I haven't noticed more stool waste bc of the added vegetable matter, the cats still produce less stool volume on Primal than eg canned food. Primal nuggets (I only use the FD turkey) hydrate quickly and easily. My cats were boycotting Primal for awhile but they are happily eating it again.

You may also want to look into Instinct's Raw Market nuggets, the chicken formula is the same as the dog formula. Very flavorful, my cats love Raw Market.

Thanks a lot for sharing your experience @LisaMarie12. I was also concerned about bone meal so I wrote FIB just yesterday asking where they source it.

And I believe I looked through your exploration of FIB Ca

ratio thread, that's one of the main reasons I became interested in it.

I also found S&C way too bony, I mean if I hydrate it really well and make it more soupy so my kitty gets plenty of water, he literally spits out the bone pieces...

Primal Pork and Venison have lower Ca

ratio then the rest of the formulas, so that's what I'm going to try as well.

I plan on trying lots of freeze dried formulas and brands, including Instinct Raw Market (wish they had more protein variety for kitties), cause we'll be moving in a few months and probably staying in the hotel after the move for a few months so I will have to put home made raw on hold, though my kitty is really enjoying it

manx · Aug 29, 2016

Hey everyone!

I'm gonna swing by the local mom and pop petstore tomorrow and grab a trial bag of the NV Raw Market for my kitty. They also have Rad Cat and Primal Pronto, and I was thinking about getting one and offering it to my cat or hiding it in something like Fancy Feast (which he'll eat regardless) just to get some raw in him. Nutrition aside, which one would be more flavorful and enticing to a cat?

lisamarie12 · Aug 30, 2016

KiraTheCat said:
Thanks a lot for sharing your experience @LisaMarie12
. I was also concerned about bone meal so I wrote FIB just yesterday asking where they source it. :catguy: And I believe I looked through your exploration of FIB Ca ratio thread, that's one of the main reasons I became interested in it.

I also found S&C way too bony, I mean if I hydrate it really well and make it more soupy so my kitty gets plenty of water, he literally spits out the bone pieces...

Primal Pork and Venison have lower Ca ratio then the rest of the formulas, so that's what I'm going to try as well.

I plan on trying lots of freeze dried formulas and brands, including Instinct Raw Market (wish they had more protein variety for kitties), cause we'll be moving in a few months and probably staying in the hotel after the move for a few months so I will have to put home made raw on hold, though my kitty is really enjoying it

Well, putting homemade raw on hold for a bit and feeding FD raw isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Thanks for emailing FIB, I will also contact Stacy, between the two of us, we'll get some answers re: the bone meal.

lisamarie12 · Aug 30, 2016

Manx said:
Hey everyone!

I'm gonna swing by the local mom and pop petstore tomorrow and grab a trial bag of the NV Raw Market for my kitty. They also have Rad Cat and Primal Pronto, and I was thinking about getting one and offering it to my cat or hiding it in something like Fancy Feast (which he'll eat regardless) just to get some raw in him. Nutrition aside, which one would be more flavorful and enticing to a cat?

As far as the frozen raw and palatability, I would go with Rad Cat.

My little guy never cared much for Primal Pronto - or Primal's frozen nuggets.

From what I've read also, via different cat blogs, it seems more cats enjoy Primal's freeze dried / rehydrated food vs Primal's frozen raw. In fact I recently had a cat owner switch her cat from Primal's frozen beef / salmon and onto RC, which she said her cat preferred (I work at an indy pet food retailer).

I rarely hear about a cat refusing RC, although there is no guarantee your cat will like it.

Good luck.

lisahe · Aug 30, 2016

LisaMarie12 said:
As far as the frozen raw and palatability, I would go with Rad Cat.

My little guy never cared much for Primal Pronto - or Primal's frozen nuggets.

From what I've read also, via different cat blogs, it seems more cats enjoy Primal's freeze dried / rehydrated food vs Primal's frozen raw. In fact I recently had a cat owner switch her cat from Primal's frozen beef / salmon and onto RC, which she said her cat preferred (I work at an indy pet food retailer).

I rarely hear about a cat refusing RC, although there is no guarantee your cat will like it.

Good luck.

All of this fits our cats! They just love Rad Cat turkey and chicken; those are their favorite foods, though they do refuse Rad Cat lamb. I've never fed them beef or venison.

As for Primal, they don't like the frozen at all (though they used to eat it, mixed with freeze-dried) but will eat the freeze-dried very happily.

msserena · Aug 30, 2016

hmmm I'm glad I found this post, I didn't know you weren't supposed to feed straight out of the bag dehydrated food to kitties. I have like 6 different bags/kinds/brands & usually give them to the kitties as a treat since they like the crunchy aspect of it. My one kitty is in the hospital & yesterday I got so desperate for her to eat that I brought all the bags & put them down to see what she would eat. Since they're running fluids through an iv, I hope that the few bits of food won't cause an issue.

Even the bags say to offer it dry as a treat or wet for a meal. I would think if it's super bad to give them the dry, the bag would say something like, don't feed dry!

kirathecat · Aug 30, 2016

LisaMarie12 said:
Well, putting homemade raw on hold for a bit and feeding FD raw isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Thanks for emailing FIB, I will also contact Stacy, between the two of us, we'll get some answers re: the bone meal.

I don't think it's a bad thing either I'm just a bit worried how my kitty's tummy will be able to handle something different... Hope I can find some food he'd be OK with before we move

Oh, Stacy answered me.

She wrote:

We use MCH-Cal by Waitaki Biosciences as our bone meal supplement. It

is the highest quality human-grade bone supplement on the

nutraceutical market today. Find all the details on their web site

here:

https://www.waitakibio.com/products/brands/mch-cal/

@LisaMarie12 what are your thoughts?

kirathecat · Aug 30, 2016

msserena said:
hmmm I'm glad I found this post, I didn't know you weren't supposed to feed straight out of the bag dehydrated food to kitties. I have like 6 different bags/kinds/brands & usually give them to the kitties as a treat since they like the crunchy aspect of it. My one kitty is in the hospital & yesterday I got so desperate for her to eat that I brought all the bags & put them down to see what she would eat. Since they're running fluids through an iv, I hope that the few bits of food won't cause an issue.

Even the bags say to offer it dry as a treat or wet for a meal. I would think if it's super bad to give them the dry, the bag would say something like, don't feed dry!

It's fine to give freeze dried food as a treat right out of the bag, or as a topper when starting to introduce it. The point is not to feed it dry all the time as a main source of food for the cats. Just like giving couple of kibble pieces as a treat is ok, the same goes for freeze dried.

Well, we all know that kibble isn't too great of a food choice for kitties but nobody warns you on the bag about it

And when it comes to getting a sick cat to eat, I think anything goes, dry or wet or whatever is to kitty's liking.

msserena · Aug 30, 2016

I kind of freaked out when I read that & was like, great, I'm gonna make my sick kitty even sicker! I will only use a treat (a few pieces, not every day) from now on. I bought a bag of wysong archetype chicken I will try to hydrate it & see if they eat it!

manx · Aug 30, 2016

Success!

He liked the Raw Market!!

Well, only after many minutes of begging and bribing (sprinkled kibble and treats on food, still wouldn't touch it ;c ). I finally sprinkled a little of the dehydrated crumbs on top of the rehydrated stuff and he sucked it in like a vacuum!

I will definitely begin to largely incorporate this into diet. I will try the Rad Cat tomorrow and see how it goes!

missmimz · Aug 30, 2016

msserena said:
hmmm I'm glad I found this post, I didn't know you weren't supposed to feed straight out of the bag dehydrated food to kitties. I have like 6 different bags/kinds/brands & usually give them to the kitties as a treat since they like the crunchy aspect of it. My one kitty is in the hospital & yesterday I got so desperate for her to eat that I brought all the bags & put them down to see what she would eat. Since they're running fluids through an iv, I hope that the few bits of food won't cause an issue.

Even the bags say to offer it dry as a treat or wet for a meal. I would think if it's super bad to give them the dry, the bag would say something like, don't feed dry!

Well all FD foods say to feed rehydrated. I just know based on the numbers provided that S&C is high in phos/ash/bone so you really don't want to feed it dry. I think if you have kitties that like crunches you can find FD meat treats or buy toppers that aren't "meals" that way they're not as high in the bone/ash ratio, or hopefully don't contain bone at all.

lisahe · Aug 31, 2016

missmimz said:
Well all FD foods say to feed rehydrated. I just know based on the numbers provided that S&C is high in phos/ash/bone so you really don't want to feed it dry. I think if you have kitties that like crunches you can find FD meat treats or buy toppers that aren't "meals" that way they're not as high in the bone/ash ratio, or hopefully don't contain bone at all.

Pure Bites, which are pure meat, are great for this! We buy the dog-sized treats: they're cheaper and larger than the cat treats, so they give extra crunching.

lisamarie12 · Aug 31, 2016

KiraTheCat said:
I don't think it's a bad thing either I'm just a bit worried how my kitty's tummy will be able to handle something different... Hope I can find some food he'd be OK with before we move

Oh, Stacy answered me.

She wrote:

We use MCH-Cal by Waitaki Biosciences as our bone meal supplement. It

is the highest quality human-grade bone supplement on the

nutraceutical market today. Find all the details on their web site

here:

https://www.waitakibio.com/products/brands/mch-cal/

@LisaMarie12 what are your thoughts?

I'm sure kitty will be fine with the food you're able to offer until you're settled in your new home, congratulations, btw.

Re: Stacy's response, that sounds good to me. What I've read about bone meal, and very generally - I don't know a whole lot about it, is that if bone meal is used, it should be human grade. Bone meal is usually derived from slaughtered cows, but once processed and cooked, is tends to be high in heavy metals, among other things.

Looking at Stacy's link, MCH is a very good source of calcium. I trust this company, FIB, as well as their source of human grade bone meal.

Nonetheless, I'll inquire a bit more and if there is any add'l info to add, I'll update. I have no reservations now re: FIB.

Also, one thing that Stacy mentioned to me previously, and I didn't even ask about Vit E - she said that FIB only uses Vit E as their natural preservative and not "mixed tocopherols", that she had learned that there are companies that used MT which in some cases, was a combination of Vit E AND soy! I don't know the extent to which that is true, which companies would used that combo (b/c it's cheaper). I would think companies like e.g., Primal, which uses MT would be using pure Vit E or at least no soy in their MT.

But it was reassuring nonetheless.

Thanks for contacting FIB.

kirathecat · Aug 31, 2016

LisaMarie12 said:
I'm sure kitty will be fine with the food you're able to offer until you're settled in your new home, congratulations, btw.

Re: Stacy's response, that sounds good to me. What I've read about bone meal, and very generally - I don't know a whole lot about it, is that if bone meal is used, it should be human grade. Bone meal is usually derived from slaughtered cows, but once processed and cooked, is tends to be high in heavy metals, among other things.

Looking at Stacy's link, MCH is a very good source of calcium. I trust this company, FIB, as well as their source of human grade bone meal.

Nonetheless, I'll inquire a bit more and if there is any add'l info to add, I'll update. I have no reservations now re: FIB.

Also, one thing that Stacy mentioned to me previously, and I didn't even ask about Vit E - she said that FIB only uses Vit E as their natural preservative and not "mixed tocopherols", that she had learned that there are companies that used MT which in some cases, was a combination of Vit E AND soy! I don't know the extent to which that is true, which companies would used that combo (b/c it's cheaper). I would think companies like e.g., Primal, which uses MT would be using pure Vit E or at least no soy in their MT.

But it was reassuring nonetheless.

Thanks for contacting FIB.

Thanks

It's gonna be a very new experience to move with the cat, lots of preparation and planning

Yes, I thought it was a good source of calcium too

I'll order some food to try next week and some freeze dried hearts too.

Wow, I had no idea about vit E & SOY... Man, the more you look into what's put into kitty food the crazier it gets!

It's great that there are companies like FIB who really thinks it through.

manx · Aug 31, 2016

Update

He ate some of the Rad Cat chicken today

But only after sprinkling the NV Raw Market crumbs on top....oh well, at least he ate a good part and got the flavor.

The next step is to mix it in with Fancy Feast. If he still won't touch it, I will try one of those flavor enhancers to get him interested more.

If only I could get my parents to stop leaving out kibble, maybe he'll be a bit more peckish

(i try to put it back when theyre not looking)

Any other tips in getting him to eat it?

kirathecat · Aug 31, 2016

Manx said:
Update

He ate some of the Rad Cat chicken today

But only after sprinkling the NV Raw Market crumbs on top....oh well, at least he ate a good part and got the flavor.

The next step is to mix it in with Fancy Feast. If he still won't touch it, I will try one of those flavor enhancers to get him interested more.

If only I could get my parents to stop leaving out kibble, maybe he'll be a bit more peckish (i try to put it back when theyre not looking)

Any other tips in getting him to eat it?

Yay! congrats on starting the switch

Can't you talk to your parents and ask them not to leave any dry food out? Cause kibble and raw are not digested the same way and mixing the two in the diet can upset cat's tummy. So really, getting rid of kibble all together would be my major step in successfully switching the kitty to raw. Plus it is much easier to introduce any new food to a cat that doesn't have access to all-kitty-can-eat-kibble-buffet.

You are doing fine with sprinkling some freeze dried raw on top. You could continue this route simply reducing the amount of sprinkled crumbs over next few days/weeks depending on how easy the transition is going.

manx · Sep 1, 2016

KiraTheCat said:
Yay! congrats on starting the switch

Can't you talk to your parents and ask them not to leave any dry food out? Cause kibble and raw are not digested the same way and mixing the two in the diet can upset cat's tummy. So really, getting rid of kibble all together would be my major step in successfully switching the kitty to raw. Plus it is much easier to introduce any new food to a cat that doesn't have access to all-kitty-can-eat-kibble-buffet.

You are doing fine with sprinkling some freeze dried raw on top. You could continue this route simply reducing the amount of sprinkled crumbs over next few days/weeks depending on how easy the transition is going.

Unfortunately, it's not a total switch. I was just hoping to introduce raw into diet along with wet and try to eliminate kibble.

He doesn't get free fed kibble, he's supposed to get a small handful between meals as a snack. But somehow the bowl ends up full! I always chide my parents and/or secretly put the kibble back but they are dead set in their ways. My mom is coming along slowly to the raw side though.

I will probably keep up with giving him the rehydrated NV Raw Market along with wet food. I will continue to remove any kibble set out for him. And I've decided that once this Orijen is gone, I'm not going to get any dry food and see if my parents notice

Hopefully one day he will be 100% raw!!

Thank you all for the help <3

Primal vs Stella and Chewy's

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