Another "Getting Along" Thread

[daones]

Yes I am sure there are many people with the same issues, the only thing that differs are the cats personalities.

So I posted here a few times before about my cats, first we got "Sticker" a few years ago probably around 4 years old now and shes a female.

Months ago we rescued a feral who is young maybe only a year old we named him Suamog (thai word), he was being bothered all the time by another male cat until he was injured pretty badly... Took over a month between his first injury and getting him spayed to get him back to health... Now that is done we want to focus on having him and Sticker get along.

So I do admit we had some mistakes in introducing them properly, when Suamog first came into the house he stayed near the front door and Sticker usually watched him Calmly, but that was quite awhile ago and since then Suamog being the braver one actually has chased Sticker a few times as you know even one second you stop watching them they will take advantage... Sticker is comfortable staying in our bedroom/bathroom pretty much 24 hours a day while Suamog has the living room.

Sticker is pretty much terrified to leave the bedroom, and if she does it is only for a brief moment and she usually walks low to the ground. Since it has been close to 2 months they should be used to each other scents and the last few days I have been taking Suamog in a cage and letting Sticker watch him... But she usually just growls, and eventually wants to attack the cage until I stop her. I am at a loss on what to do, and to at least have them tolerate each other without attacking.

Sticker also even gets angry with us if she smells his scent on our hands and will hiss slightly at try to bite our hands.

I have just heard about feliway, and I am thinking of getting that to help keep things calm. But wondering is there anything else I should do to properly introduce them. Also on another note Suamog has only been spayed just 2 weeks ago, I am not sure if that makes a difference in whether our female can sense his hormones and maybe why she is more aggressive with him.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Thank you very much for saving Suamog. He needed your help and thank you so much for taking care of him.

What you are going through is very common. Many if not all of us have been through this.

We really want to go through the formal introduction process. Here is a very good link.  http://www.thecatsite.com/a/how-to-successfully-introduce-cats-the-ultimate-guide

We always want to take it slowly. We really want to associate the other cat with good things like play and food.

So I would keep them separated for now in whatever places you feel is best and where they are most comfortable.

You want to start feeding on each side of a closed door to begin with. Start a few feet apart and slowing move the bowls closer (but still on each side of a closed door). We always want to associate the other cat with good things especially food. 

We also want to build Stickers confidence during this process. Does Sticker play? If so get her to play as much as possible in the area you have decided is best for her away from Suamog. After play feed either treats or food. Also give Sticker plenty of places to go high in the world.  Cat trees, window perches, etc. And try to give her a lot of love, get her to purr as much as possible. Sticker has to realize that she is loved and wanted and also that Suamog will not hurt her.

At some point you'll want to do some scent swapping. Right now she gets upset about his scent on your hands. But you'll want to get his scent on an old shirt at some point and feed her near it (especially her favorite foods (I use warm chicken thighs). Also, have his scent near places she feels very comfortable in. The more she smells his scent and isn't threatened the more comfortable and confident she will be.

Then at some point you'll want to start opening the door a touch with food close by. Take it slow. Then if you have some kind of barrier but where they can still see and smell each other you want to start feeding on each side of that (like a screen door or multiple baby gates etc. Things that the other cat can't get through but that they can see and smell each other.

Then at some point you'll want to do some site swapping (which you have kind of started doing). Have them in each other's area without having physical access to each other and play with them feed them give them love (build confidence). 

At any time when they can see each other during this process if one focuses on the other one distract them with play and if that doesn't work block their site with cardboard or something. Anything to distract.

Then after a while depending on how things go a meeting will happen.

But this is a process and it is important to take it slowly. We want each cat to be confident and not to feel threatened. We also as humans need to act calm and confident during this process as cats can take on our energy.

We'll help you through this. This may not have been written as well as I hope so please ask any questions any time. What you are going through is normal and we all have been through it and it can be solved.

We need to build Sticker's confidence and let her know that Suamog does not and will not hurt her. The more confident Sticker is the less likely there will be issues.

 

[daones]

Thank you, there are some good ideas there that I will incorporate. 

One thing though I noticed there are some ideas to help Sticker mostly cope with Suamog but what if she becomes more comfortable but he wants to chase her. Usually I can stop this before it happens, I usually know when he does it because he will get low to the ground and have big eyes and I usually talk loud or make some noise to interrupt him.

At the moment since he was mostly an outdoor cat previously he seems to be pretty aggressive even with me, but I think that is just because he is young and has a lot of energy to expend. Really the only way to make him neutral at the moment is keeping him in a carrier when I want them to see each other. But I guess I can start there and at least maybe get Sticker to be accepting of him.

 

[calicosrspecial]

You are welcome.

Sticker should be more confident from the efforts I mentioned before and therefore if he decides to chase her she will hold her ground and not act like prey and therefore repel any attempt to intimidate (chase) if that is the intent. If the intent is just play then she'll probably interpret it as play and do what cats love to do, play. Chase, climb, run around etc.

When they do get together down the road and you do notice big eyes, ears back, tail swooshing, low to the ground, etc so it looks more serious than play then you can distract with play (a toy) or have a side of a cardboard box and block the view or even have a blanket. But if Sticker is confident she should also help diffuse the situation and with the proper introduction process that should be lessened as he should not feel like he has to be so fearful of her (and then any chase should really have the intent of being play).

I deal with a lot of ferals and all my cats have been and are ferals. Typically cats do not want to be aggressive unless they feel threatened (feel cornered, etc). Let him get close on his terms. Always watch his body language and if it not hospitable then wait for another time. I take care of ferals and I use food to build their trust with me. Then they typically cautiously rub on me and run, then they rub on me and rub, then they start headbutting, then they start wanting to be pet. It is a process. But I always let it be on their terms. I never try to push it or have it on my terms.

To build trust with him use food. Talk to him softly. Give him eye kisses (slow closing of the eyes). If you can get him to play with a string toy or "Da bird" at some point it helps. Then after play feed.

I have had what some people have said are "nasty mean" cats and this works. It is all about trust.

I really want to encourage you to go through the introduction process. It really leads to success and makes it a lot easier and less stressful. I have introduced a lot of cats and it is a process but success is almost guaranteed if the introduction process is followed. If it is rushed it can take a lot longer and even be unsuccessful.

Play is a great way to get a kitten to get a little tired out (it never really tires him out). Any toys that they can play with alone also helps.

I highly encourage you to not let them see each other for a while. And if at all possible give him access to the full room. Feed them on each side of the closed door for a while. The follow the introduction process. 

Here are more links I saw from an excellent post by I think ShadowsRescue that I think you will find helpful:

http://www.thecatsite.com/a/the-ultimate-yet-simplified-guide-to-introducing-cats

http://www.catbehaviorassociates.com/a-simple-little-trick-to-use-during-new-cat-introductions/

http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/cat-behavior/introducing-your-cat-new-cat

http://jacksongalaxy.com/2010/10/01/cat-to-cat-introductions/

The key really is to get them to associate the other cat with good things like play and food. Done properly and slowly when they do meet they will kind of know each other and not fear the other cat (which is usually why fights happen).

Just please try to go through the introduction process, it really will help. It has never failed me personally.

Please feel free to ask anything. I am happy to help. And thank you so much for saving Suamog.

 

[daones]

Okay thanks again, some really useful stuff here and it makes sense. We just need to be patient and use these tips. So basically we need them to associate good things with each other, which is probably why I need to tell my girlfriend stop bringing him in her bedroom without being in the cage or without treats.

I hope it works out in the longrun so Sticker can rejoin the rest of the house instead of being in our bedroom all the time.

One idea from some tips you have gave me, would it be okay to use a shirt or something with each other's scents and place it near their bowls when they eat so they can smell each other during eating time?

Something offtopic if you have more time, with Suamog he is very clingy to me (have a feeling he looks at me as the mother cat) basically when I go out to the living room he meows all the time for about 10 minutes straight and rubbing my legs, but he bites my legs suddenly a lot of times then runs away.. For this reason I give him food often as I figure he may be hungry. Another thing maybe related to biting my legs, is when he is on my lap he seems to want to bite my face but I usually move my face before he does. Any idea for this kind of behavior?

 

[calicosrspecial]

You are welcome.

Patience will be rewarded. Just take the process slowly. I am very confident that it will work out for Sticker and Suamog.  There will be ups and downs but the process really works but it has to be done correctly. I have been through it many times and I personally have never had it not work. I have had it work in a month and sometimes 3 months. Others it has taken a year and very rarely do the personalities just not mesh.  

As long as Sticker is not in your girlfriend's bedroom it is fine if Suamog comes into her bedroom. Now if Sticker lives in her bedroom then we probably don't want to do that at this point. If Sticker is basically always in her bedroom then we would want to start "site swapping" at a later point (basically bringing Suamog into Sticker's living area and having Sticker inn Suamog's living area - that is site swapping).

We really don't want them to see each other for a little while. We want to start feeding on each side of the door while it is closed. And get them to be able to smell the other cat while they eat.

You are exactly right, we want to have each cat associate the other cat with good things like food and eventually play.

It is absolutely ok to get each cat's scent on a shirt(s) and place the shirts near where the other cat eats, sleeps, etc. That is called "scent swapping". So they basically can smell the other can't and associate them with good things like food and sleep. And also associate the scent with being safe (since the other cat can't get to them and hurt them).

It is very normal for a rescued feral to be clingy to the person that protects them, feeds them etc. He rubs on you to get his scent on you to say you are his. Very normal. I take care of a feral colony as well as having indoor cats (all ferals off the streets). Both sets of cats rub on me all the time and they can be a bit needy. Once they get more confident and comfortable it does lessen. Once they realize that they will have food and water and be safe they get less clingy. But there remains that special bond. Does your girlfriend feed him? Feeding a cat helps increase a bond. When I am dealing with a new feral I use warm chicken thighs and it is amazing how a scared tough cat can get pretty trusting with warm chicken thighs. My point is trust and bonds can be built using food.

How hard of a bite is it? I am guessing it is a love bite. I have an outside feral that did that to me. I would say "no" in a stern voice (not real loud but firm) and he got out of it. I have found they get to know what is ok and what isn't. I think what I would do is grab a toy and start playing with him if possible. Try to tire him out. Try to feed only at more set times. And after play either feed or give treats.

Can you go into the exact circumstances of what happens when he is on your lap and what happens before and after when he tries to bite your face? I am guessing he is getting overstimulated but I need to understand exactly what is happening. Is it an aggressive attempt or is it softer? What does he do after the attempt and what do you do? Are you petting him before he does it? If so, where are you petting him? How does his tail look before he attempts to bite your face? How does his eyes look? How does his ears look? The body language will tell us a lot about his intent. 

Let me know about the questions and hopefully I can shed more light on the situation and possible solutions.

 

[daones]

Thanks again for the reply,

Actually yesterday I fed sticker in our bedroom where she stays, but I placed her bowl near the door and there is a small crack on the outside of our door and you can see out, I also gave Suamog his food on the other side. So they actually could see each other when eating, they both looked at each other a few times while eating but they just continued to eat and Sticker didnt even hiss which she usually does when she sees him so thats a good sign. I told my girlfriend to stop bringing him in the bedroom for a while because basically we need to reset the Intro process and take it slower.

Anyway about him biting, yes it could be over stimulation... He will be laying on my lap looking at my face then sometimes he will try to get up and move towards my face...  A few times early on (when we first got him) he would bite my hair on my chin (i have a small beard)... Maybe it could be that, either way I stop him before that happens now. The problem is his biting power is much harder than sticker, it could be from the fact he was bullied often outside when he was young by another male cat.

For leg biting I pretty much have to wear sweat pants now around the house, I have had blood drawn at least 4-5 times... Again I think it is just natural aggression (or saved up evergy) however you want to put it. He gets big bursts of energy sometimes and jumps on the couch (we added a big makeshfit scratchpad on the arm of our couch). 

But it is too bad about Sticker and giving her some special food as a treat, she is probably the most pickiest cat I ever seen, she pretty much only eats regular dry food and sometimes the Treats you can buy at the store... But she basically doesnt eat Chicken breast, fish, yogurt, tuna or anything like that. She used to eat mixed wet and dry food but she suddenly stopped eating that about 8 months ago.

 

[calicosrspecial]

GREAT that they ate without hissing etc. It is best to not let them see each other for a little while then slowly let them see each other. But it is great that food is more interesting (and less threatening etc) then the other cat. The can associate good stuff (food) with the other cat. Please keep that up.

Great that he will not be coming into the bedroom for now. It is best, we want Sticker to feel comfortable and safe and associate him with good things. At some point down the road you'll do some site swapping and then some time after that I am sure he'll be in the bedroom a lot.

Over stimulation typically happens during and after petting (especially on the back). They can get a little worked up as the nerves can get a little worked up and they can at times lash out. So we always want to be very careful about how and where we pet the cat (cats are different and some don't mind while others do).

It is hard to tell exactly his intent without seeing it or hearing more about how it happens. Cats that are bonded to a person can want to head butt the person (a sign of "hey, you are my buddy"). He could be thinking the beard is a toy. It could be from being overstimulated. Are you staring at him? Sometimes ferals can get a little scared when looked into their eyes (stared at). When he does go fro your face how are his ears? Are his eyes dilated? Is his tail moving rapidly? Does he make any growling sound before going for your face? Observe what happened before it happens. For example, I have seen where a person is petting a cat on the back and the cat gets overstimulated and lashes out. Solution - don't pet their backs at all or to the extent they get overstimulated.

How does the leg biting happen? Is he rubbing on you then bites? Or does he just go up to your leg and bite? He may have been kicked at some point and he may view legs as a threat. It really depends on how he does it, what the body language is like. I would highly suggest telling him "no" in a stern voice (not yelling but a stern "no". I have an outside feral that liked to give me a love bite on my leg (and he would give love bites to the other ferals). I would tell him "no" and he stopped it. But he did it as a love bite he never had any intent to hurt me or the other cats. Any more details you can provide on how he does it might help me understand. You may want to start another thread and explain that your cat bites your leg and ask how you can stop it. Other may have more experience in that than I do.

Getting him to play should help expend some of his energy. He is still young so he is full of energy. Play helps reduce some of that excess energy.

For Sticker, that does make it more difficult but try giving her a little dry food as a treat. Any food a cat likes does help in building confidence. 

Keep up the good work. Just take the process slowly

 

[daones]

I thought i would reply on this thread because its related to the same thing, and one of the cats... Unfortunately we no longer have Suamog, we found another home for him a few years back... I still miss him even after these few years he was special and had a silly personality he had a rough early life and hope we provided him some happy times while he was with us, he loved to eat seafood with us and im hoping hes being taken care of well with new owners.

Anyway the reason im replying is about Sticker our oldest cat she was the one we were trying to get along with Suamog... I mentioned this in a thread I posted about sticker... she has never really got used to any of the cats we take in... The last bunch because we took in a pregnant mom back in June we had 6 besides her then and we lost one recently.

I think sticker has made some progress, there was a time she was only in our bedroom about a month this was shortly after the kittens were born, eventually she started to come out. Right now the other cats respect Sticker they usually dont mess with her but as kittens they run around of course and as a lot of you know cats who are older and not comfortable with other cats wont like sudden or quick movements, a lot of times sticker will shriek and attempt to hit them when they do this then the mom will step in the middle.. Luckily nothing major has happened.

Recently as of about 1 month i can sometimes let sticker and the other cats in the living room alone but occasionally i will hear a quick fight.. I observed this behavior outside, sticker almost wants to provoke the other cats or put them in a position where they need to move closely to Sticker in order to move to another area, but Sticker doesnt usually openly want to attack them, only provoking I am thinking she is just trying to show them who's boss.

I don't like the ideas of these quick outbursts where Sticker will shriek and attempt to fight because it makes it a bad experience between them, I thought i was making progress and at the beginning i never kept them together we let the cats out during the day and sticker at night so they could get used to each other's smells i know this because when they first visited the room they would sniff around everywhere and i did this for at least a month.

My goal is to at least let them live in peace together in the same room without we having to worry about fighting, It might get better as the kittens get older and a little less naughty, for example the mother cat "kitty" and Sticker generally dont have issues when just the 2 of them are alone because the mom she just act's like she doesnt care and sleeps... But you can imagine the behavior between an older cat and kitten who are a bit naughty and curious.

i do have some feliway spray i can try to use that to perhaps make them feel a bit more calm.

 

[calicosrspecial]

I am a big believer in confidence leading to harmony and acceptance. I have a saying " a confident cat is less likely to attack or be attacked".

The fact it took a little longer for her to come out of the room suggests she lacked confidence and "ownership". SO we tend to want to play with them and feed after play to increase confidence and give them places they can get their scent on and "own".

The fct she is now coming out and gets along with mama cat is really a good sign that she has made progress.

So glad to hear nothing major as happened.

When cats or kittens run around (and run away) they can look like prey to a cat. So it sounds like Sticker is actually doing pretty well.

So you site swapping was a very good step. What I would like you to do now is to make positive associations between Sticker and the kittens. So feed treats or a meal when they are around (keeping the kittens focused on something and not bothering Sticker) while Sticker is enjoying something good and positive (food). And try to make every encounter as positive as possible. So distract with a treat or a toy or some loving words in a calm confident voice. So the kittens don't bother Sticker or vice versa. Anytime they avoid a negative encounter it is a positive. And the more trust will be built and the more trust the more the other cat can "get away" with. Also, try to make sure you have some cat trees and even consider cat shelving (if at all possible) so that Sticker can go high and either avoid the kittens or just observe them from above. Also, get some scratching posts so Sticker can get her scent on something and "own" it. And play with Sticker in any areas where these "encounters" occur, And after play fed treats or a meal.

It actually sounds like you have done a really good job getting Sticker to really behave and to get along with mama cat so we just have to finish it off a bit. Boost Sticker's confidence and give her a little more "ownership" of the territory so that she is more confident and therefore more accepting.

But overall, it sounds like you have really done a good job so far so let's keep it up and get Sticker to get fully accepting. Keep up the great work and feel free to post anytime and ask anything. I am having trouble with alerts at times so if I don;t respond send me a message that you posted and I can find it and reply.

Sounds like you are doing a great job, keep it up!!!

 

[daones]

Thanks, that sounds like some good ideas... Its easy to forget the easy things... I forgot about the treats and feeding outside... We usually let her unwind in the bedroom but we will try to do that outside while the kittens are out there. Actually she was just outside about 4 hours with the whole gang and there werent any issues but the girlfriend was also out there watching tv.. I dont think she tries anything when my girlfriend is around out there.

I just re-carpeted stickers scratching post just tonight i can feel shes much more happy about that, as the old carpeting was coming off of the old one. But for her scratching post we keep it in the bathroom thats connected to our bedroom where the kittens never go if we put it out in the living room do you think she might feel she lost ownership of it? because i am sure they will use it too.

Right now every day is different, especially with spaying's going on at my house very soon but we like to let Sticker go out in the living room about 6 hours a day, keep in mind most the time she comes into her bedroom on her own will...usually I think this is the place where she sleeps and can relax without worrying about the other cats.

Thanks for the encouragement about this, ill keep the things you mentioned in mind.

 

[calicosrspecial]

It is funny you mention that, the easy things (the basics) are what works well.

Wow, 4 hours, that is great. Anything that works. It is all about positive associations, positive encounters to build that trust. People can do that. I actually do it in my personal intros.

Good job on the scratching post. You can either add a new one in the bathroom and use that one just outside of the bathroom closer to "their" territory It will help Sticker expand her ownership of the territory since scent is ownership and we can expand her territory. But it sounds like she is doing really well so it isn't necessary. Play and food/treats and love (As long as it is safe) and distraction should work well.

If the other cats use the tree I think that would be fine. If anyone is spraying then it would be a problem.

I think you are just need to tweak some things and build. You are a long way to success already as it is more fine tuning from here on.

"Right now every day is different, especially with spaying's going on at my house very soon but we like to let Sticker go out in the living room about 6 hours a day, keep in mind most the time she comes into her bedroom on her own will...usually I think this is the place where she sleeps and can relax without worrying about the other cats." - That sounds really good. Sounds ideal really. Sure the spaying will be a little disruptive but they will have to be resting and "put away" in a safe spot for a while but I don't think it will cause any issues. Sticker feels secure in the bedroom, seems to be feeling more confident elsewhere, comes and goes seemingly confidently.I think it sounds really good.

I think you are in a much better position than you think. Remember, stay calm and confident and loving around the cats as they take on our emotions. Do the basic things mentioned in the previous post to build confidence and I think you will continue to make good progress. But I think you have obviously done a really good job to be where you are now.

Keep up the great work!!

 

[daones]

Yes im really happy with some changes in Sticker's personality, come to think of it my new girlfriend (well not new anymore but 2 years now) may have something to do with it. When i was with my ex, we never had any luck with Socializing sticker with other cats we thought it was a lost cause... Sticker seems to really love my girlfriend Nook maybe her vibe or attitude has helped with sticker be more confident perhaps.

While I dont expect the cats and Sticker to be sleeping together although that would be nice lets hope down the road they can live together in peace but one step at a time . Thanks again for the help

 

[calicosrspecial]

Cats take on our (human) emotions so it is not surprising to hear you think that may be the case. I actually think your gf probably is a huge help with Sticker. The more confident, calm, loving we humans are the more the cat tends to be. I am really glad to hear she is so good with Sticker.

I work with ferals and notice how emotions impact the cat all the time. Ferals are highly cautious, skittish, etc. So emotions have a large impact in either escalating or de-escalating the situation. If a person is nervous or anxious the cat will be more nervous or anxious. And bad things can happen. But if a person is calm, confident, trusting the cat tends to relax more. It is pretty amazing. I see it all the time. Moving normally is really important, any change in "normal" can cause a cat to get more on edge.

So I am not at all surprised at your gf's emotions are having a positive impact on Sticker. That is fantastic and very helpful in getting Sticker to get along.

Well, I would not rule them out sleeping together. Let's see what we can do. But as long as they are happy and confident and getting along that is really all we can ask for.

I have no doubt that we can get them to live in peace together. You already have shown a lot of progress so I am highly confident that Sticker will get along with the other cats. We have some confidence building to do and some more work to fine tune the relationship but we'll get there. I am not at all worried from what you have told me.

Keep up the great work and feel free to ask anything anytime. GREAT job!!