Carrageenan

moggiegirl

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How terrible is it? Because it's in our food. It's in the coffee creamer I bought for myself today.
 

Anne

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How terrible is it? Because it's in our food. It's in the coffee creamer I bought for myself today.
It's not terrible at all. Though some fear mongers who love to scare people into orthorexia will tell you it is. 

It's simply a type of polysaccharide derived from seaweed. Like pretty much everything in our world - including oxygen and pure water - it may have some ill effects when consumed in very very large quantities. None have been seen so far, except for some suspicions of carcinogenic effects in a few animal studies (which have been criticised by other scientists). 

Don't base your entire diet on carrageenan. A little bit in your creamer makes zero difference to your health. That's not me saying that, that's the World Health Organization saying that.

What I find funny is that I know people who avoid carrageenan but are happy to consume spirulina shakes... Now, that's something far more risky 
 

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I've heard of fears related to carrageenan on this site as well.  It reminded me of an article I'd read a while back that confirms exactly what Anne is saying.  It's by Chris Kresser.  He's a foodie and a purist, but he's very intelligent, has common sense, and is in no way an alarmist.   Here's the link:  http://chriskresser.com/harmful-or-harmless-carrageenan/

Edited:

It's been a while since I read this so I did not recall that Chris recommends avoiding this ingredient simply because there is not enough data to support it's safety, NOT because he believes the studies that claim it is harmful.  There is a TON of info on his site, but it tends to be scholastic in nature and kind of difficult for the casual reader to just breeze through.  
 
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moggiegirl

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It's a bummer because carrageenan is the only thing stopping me from buying the pate form of Wellness. And it leaves fewer brands of cat food to choose from.
 

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I don't see carrageenan listed in Fancy Feast's Classic Liver and Chicken.  That's the only one I looked up.  But to be honest, I've heard that labeling laws for human grade food is not highly regulated, so I imagine (I don't know) that it might even be more true about pet food.  :(  I HOPE it doesn't have carrageenan in it but who knows.  I believe NVI uses Montmorillonite clay instead of carrageenan, but my kitties don't like it!  <SIGH>  So I am looking at the most cost effect raw diet that I can make at home right now.  I believe it'll be better for their health overall and that alone will save me money.  It's tough.  
 

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I believe NVI uses Montmorillonite clay instead of carrageenan.  
Who's to say that's any safer? 


I would much prefer food with carrageenan simply because it's been far better researched than other additives. The World Health Organization approved carrageenan as safe enough to be used in baby formula. @Ginny  the WHO research is from 2014 while the post by Kresser is from 2013 (and even it doesn't really say anything bad about the stuff).
 
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moggiegirl

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What sucks is because of what I've been reading about carrageenan I have removed cans of Wellness from my cupboard and if carrageenan is safe then I hate throwing away money.
 
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ginny

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Who's to say that's any safer? 


I would much prefer food with carrageenan simply because it's been far better researched than other additives. The World Health Organization approved carrageenan as safe enough to be used in baby formula. @Ginny  the WHO research is from 2014 while the post by Kresser is from 2013 (and even it doesn't really say anything bad about the stuff).
I don't know if MC (which is used as an anti-caking agent, not a thickener, my bad) is any safer than carrageenan.  For my kitties, it's a moot point because they don't care for NVI and will only eat it if they are starving.  That's not exactly a glowing recommendation for NVI or its individual ingredients.     

I would be careful who to put my trust in, especially if it's a government agency.  It goes without question that there is corruption in the world today, especially in government.  I just read parts of the WHO report on carrageenan and I must say it was a bit confusing at best.  As I read, there were a number of red flags such as:  "the details of this study are not available".  I wonder, why?  And that was just one statement.  Also, I didn't see the names of those directly involved in the study committee listed nor who they were associated with.  There could well have been conflicts of interest going on.  That happens more than we know.  No, I'm not paranoid.  But I'm old and I know human nature.  And I have seen corruption in all ranks, especially where medicine is involved.  If the WHO want us to believe their studies they need to apply a brutal level of honesty and transparency in the course of it.  So far, I'm not convinced that they do. I'm not saying they don't.  But I have questions.  

I would say if you trust carrageenan, then use it for your self and your pet, and monitor your pet for any problems like lethargy, gas, or vomiting/diarrhea/constipation.  

If you notice problems like lethargy/gas/ vomiting/diarrhea/constipation, then completely remove carrageenan from her diet for a while and see if she improves.  If so, then reintroduce the carrageenan and see if the old symptoms come back.  That's the only way to know if it's bothering your pet.  Same with us.  If you think it bothers you, then completely remove it from your diet for at least 2 weeks.  Then reintroduce it again and see how you do.  If you are better off, or your pet, without it, then stop.  

I found out this way that I am intolerant to grain and milk.  Two of my very favorite things!  
 
 

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Yes, that's a good point @Ginny

Like you said, elimination challenges can show that you're sensitive to milk (I am as well) or grain. Doesn't mean it's necessarily a "bad" ingredient, only that you have some form of intolerance.

I'm just not sure carrageenan would have been first on the line for me to test. I think proteins are more likely to be allergens and carrageenan is just a seaweed-derived polysaccharide, nothing more.
 
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moggiegirl

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I would hate to use my kitty as an experiment but I'm thinking about how Wellness has been around for years and probably always had carrageenan in it and she never had a bad reaction to it. Still some poisons are slow building and may take years to cause an effect. I had a cup of coffee this morning with creamer that contains carrageenan and marked the bottle "poison" because I don't want my coworkers to use my creamer.
 

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Well, you could consider the 1st half of the experiment done because she's been on carrageenan already, right?  So try removing it and see if she improves in any way digestive-wise.  It may not be a huge improvement though.  But consider that there are temporary side effects as well as long-term ones.  Of course you have to make any food changes with a kitty slowly and once she is off it, take notes of her bathroom habits and overall state of health.  If you do see improvement I would not put her back on it just to see, but in order to rule it out completely as a bad ingredient for her, that is still an option. I completely understand not doing it though.  I would consider improvement enough reason for me.  

As far as poison, well, I wouldn't consider it poison, per se.  I don't think Chris Kresser does either, he's just playing it safe.  There is a big difference between "findings that prove harm" versus "findings that do not positively indicate safety", and that's the reason why he chooses to err on the side of caution.  He doesn't find good evidence on either side.   It is good to become knowledgable of all food ingredients.  Read reports and make up your own mind as to the safety or harm.  

We were taught in nursing school something that @Anne  makes a point of saying - that the dose makes the poison.  Even too much water could kill you. (Google the "Hold Your Wee for a WII" contest at a Sacramento radio station back in 2007 - yes, too much water is deadly!)   So if you can make changes one ingredient at a time, it's easier to locate the problem ingredient for you or for your kitty.  I'm now looking for another probiotic because @LTS3  pointed out that my probiotic contains carrageenan.  So far it's been beneficial for me but I'm always looking out for a better and more cost effective product!  
 
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laura mae

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It is very difficult to prove causality between the consumption of an ingredient and effect of ill-health. That's why studies sometimes show neither complete safety or clear harm. No one wants to be the person who says "oh sure, go ahead and feed it/eat it. There's nothing to worry about." Caution is there for a lot of reasons, and liability concerns may be part of it.

For every day people like us, it is also difficult to wade through the pseudo-science that sounds plausible but really is not anywhere close to being plausible. That said, cats are smaller beings who process food and their environment differently than larger humans. I've wondered the effect of lots of stuff like carpet materials, what we might bring into the house inadvertently, the liner in the cans of food..etc.  

I had a cat that frequently had issues with colitis. I put her on Wellness and it really helped her. I avoided foods with greens or gravy in them for her and she did really well on the foods and lived to a ripe old age. Before that I had a cat that lived to 19 on Purina One dry and Fancy Feast.  This group of kitties I am extra careful with the food and try to focus on feeding them excellent quality cat food with some of the other cans as their 3rd meal of the day.  We spend more money on canned cat food then we do on our own groceries. I had one cat die last month who had developed some kind of mass in her abdomen and I have one who is struggling with fluid in her abdomen and an unspecified cause for vasculitis. That cat and another are hyper thyroid.

So based on my own experiences I have some questions on the opinions of high end cat food.  I think it is as simple as you do the best you can and don't throw out the Wellness.
 
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moggiegirl

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I'm thinking about still feeding her Wellness sometimes because it's a good food otherwise. I won't feed it exclusively but it's something I might just feed as part of her rotation of brands of canned cat food. Because Rosie has shown no change being on or off Wellness or any other brand that has carrageenan in it. She is the same. I think one way to avoid giving a cat too much of something that may be undesirable in a commercial cat food is to feed a variety of brands. Because don't they all have their flaws? Fancy Feast has sodium nitrite, Nature's Variety has that weird clay stuff, Wellness has carrageenan, and other brands have too many cranberries, carrots, broccoli and blueberries. And there is probably something else in another brand of cat food that doesn't have carrageenan but is still undesirable to feed to a cat. I say feed a variety of commercial brands or make your own cat food or both. And feeding a variety of brands prevents the cat from getting too attached to one food in case it gets recalled or there is an ingredient you don't want to feed too much of.
 

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I'm thinking about still feeding her Wellness sometimes because it's a good food otherwise. I won't feed it exclusively but it's something I might just feed as part of her rotation of brands of canned cat food. Because Rosie has shown no change being on or off Wellness or any other brand that has carrageenan in it. She is the same. I think one way to avoid giving a cat too much of something that may be undesirable in a commercial cat food is to feed a variety of brands. Because don't they all have their flaws? Fancy Feast has sodium nitrite, Nature's Variety has that weird clay stuff, Wellness has carrageenan, and other brands have too many cranberries, carrots, broccoli and blueberries. And there is probably something else in another brand of cat food that doesn't have carrageenan but is still undesirable to feed to a cat. I say feed a variety of commercial brands or make your own cat food or both. And feeding a variety of brands prevents the cat from getting too attached to one food in case it gets recalled or there is an ingredient you don't want to feed too much of.
I think that's a wise plan. Variety lessens the risks and keeps the cat interested in the food. I'm in agreement with  you on the clay in Nature's Variety. I have no idea why its there. I've seen that clay in others too.
 

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I agree. I too think variety is a great idea. Like others have said, with cat food (and actually human food too) there's a lot we don't know and probably never will. I do agree that it's possible for a certain kind of formula to simply be the wrong "balance" for our cat. Something that will have no effect following one, 10 or 100 days of feeding but may show its effects only a decade later.

My main beef (pardon the pun 
) with food purists of any kind is that by eliminating too many foods, you're actually creating a less-balanced diet which nobody knows the long-term effects of.

Lots of good advice here. 
 I just have to say once again that I see zero reason to point fingers at poor little carrageenan 
 @moggiegirl  like @Ginny  said, the dose makes the poison. Formaldehyde is toxic but we have no problem consuming it or even producing it in our own bodies. Oxygen is very very toxic, yet you bring it into your lungs with every breath you take. Carrageenan is far less toxic than either. I bet that if you posted the ingredients of the creamer here, I could get a biochemist friend (I have a bunch of them) list the chemicals naturally found in it and find at least several that are way more toxic than carrageenan. Still, if you bought the creamer and it's expensive, maybe putting "TOXIC" all over it isn't a bad idea! 
 

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On the subject of 'poisons' in foods - bananas are technically radioactive, but no one would suggest that they're anything but healthy to eat :winkblue:

I avoid carageenan in cat foods simply because my girl reacts badly to guar gum and, as they're easy to find here, I prefer to avoid all gums and carageenan just in case - I don't want to deal with an upset tummy if I can help it ;) If it wasn't for that, I'd have no qualms about feeding it - indeed, I 'eat' carageenan every day as it's in my almond milk, and don't think twice about it :D
 
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moggiegirl

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I agree. I too think variety is a great idea. Like others have said, with cat food (and actually human food too) there's a lot we don't know and probably never will. I do agree that it's possible for a certain kind of formula to simply be the wrong "balance" for our cat. Something that will have no effect following one, 10 or 100 days of feeding but may show its effects only a decade later.

My main beef (pardon the pun :lol3: ) with food purists of any kind is that by eliminating too many foods, you're actually creating a less-balanced diet which nobody knows the long-term effects of.

Lots of good advice here. :nod:  I just have to say once again that I see zero reason to point fingers at poor little carrageenan :D  @moggiegirl
 like @Ginny
 said, the dose
makes the poison. Formaldehyde is toxic but we have no problem consuming it or even producing it in our own bodies. Oxygen is very very toxic, yet you bring it into your lungs with every breath you take. Carrageenan is far less toxic than either. I bet that if you posted the ingredients of the creamer here, I could get a biochemist friend (I have a bunch of them) list the chemicals naturally found in it and find at least several that are way more toxic than carrageenan. Still, if you bought the creamer and it's expensive, maybe putting "TOXIC" all over it isn't a bad idea! :bigwink:
I just don't want any coworkers to steal my coffee creamer. That's why I did that.
 
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