New to this - surprise kittens 5 days ago

bomberphoenix

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Hi all, I'll post a longer intro when I get on the computer. But long story short for now, my 11mo Phoenix had a litter of 4 kittens (2 males, 2 females) last Tuesday.
I've never had a cat have kittens so this is very new to me. I've spent the last two days devouring this forum
I've noticed you love family pics (and some of you love kittens tails lol) so here are a few

 
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StefanZ

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Welcome!

Please come forward with any questions you have, and also reports now and then, even if nothing much happens.

Reports double necessary, if there was some crisis.  After crisises, we do want to know the outcome, of course...

Your momma is a tortie and tabby, ie a torbie, right?   I guess at least one of the girls is a tortie too?   And a couple of them are tabbies?
 
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bomberphoenix

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She is a mix, but yes she's a dilute tortoiseshell, with tabby markings as well!
She has two torties (F)
One black (pretty sure M) with a white on chest and belly
One spotted/tabby (M)

I didn't know they were called "torbies", I like that!
 
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bomberphoenix

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Okay, now that I'm on a computer, here's the scoop:

I lived with my boyfriend with two cats - Bomber (neutered) 2yrs, and Phoenix who is 11mos.  We lived out in the country, so they were allowed outside. I broke up with him 2.5mos ago, moved back into my ma's house.  Could not bring them because she is very allergic.  A friend of mine graciously took in my cats.  I pay everything for the cats, their food, litter, vet care.  I'm also a dog groomer, so I *was planning* on continuing to bring them to the shop to bathe/comb them every 4-6wks, but I've only done that once.  
 It's been a busy summer!  He lives in an apartment complex in suburbia so I told him they will be strictly indoor cats now (Bomber is having a very hard time with that, I feel awful, but I won't take that chance now that he's in suburbia.  Looking into harnesses so he can at least be outside).  They both gained a pound or two of weight.  Phoenix was really packing on the weight.  I didn't think anything of it - thought it was because she loves her food, and because they're not going outside anymore. 

Last Tuesday, friend calls me up, "Uh phoenix had kittens........?" Panic mode! I drove over there to see them.  I apologized, told him I would make arrangements to find a foster home for her while she raises the kittens.  I felt very bad I put him in this predicament, but I have always wanted to raise kittens/puppies.  So I was very excited, racking my brain, trying to figure out who I could stay with to be able to raise these kittens.  

He said it's not a big deal and that they could stay with him.  

That night, my ma said she knows that's one of my dreams (I'm a big animal lover), and that she would be willing to let me raise them in my room.  I took a few days, going back and forth and doing some research, trying to see if there were any big negatives for the kittens if I took them to my ma's (only being in one room, what if with all precautions my ma still ends up having a reaction, are they going to be socialized, am I going to have enough time, my friend's feelings because I know he grew attached to them, etc)

I brought them home yesterday.  After I moved them upstairs to my room (it's a decent sized room - fits a bed, my desk, a massive tv stand with fireplace, good sized closet), I could tell Phoenix was really stressing out.  I was so nervous I made a huge mistake.  That I made a selfish decision and didn't think it all the way through.  

I stayed with her for 4 hours straight while she was calming down/getting used to her new surroundings.  I could tell she was confused because the majority of the furniture I have in there was moved from BF's house so she definitely recognized/smelled it.  She ended up on the bed with me, just soaking up all the attention.  She got a lot at my friend's house, but I could tell she missed me and that she was very happy to be with me again.  She ended up bringing up two kittens right next to me on the bed.  I made a note of the time when she didn't bring the other 2 up so that after a half hour or so I would moved Phoenix and the 2 back to the ones she left.  

I bought wet food from a pet store that only sells good quality foods, and today (after reading several threads here) I bought her Royal Canin Mother & Baby dry food to leave out for her.  

I started weighing them yesterday, and am keeping track of them.  

5 DAYS OLD

M Tabby: 5.10

M Black: 5.45

F Tortie (broader blaze): 5.30

F Tortie (less markings): 5.95

Not sure if that's where they should be?

Here are some of my concerns:

1. When should I bring the kittens to the vets to start their shots?

2. Momma can get spayed when?

3. I read the socialization period is from 2-7 weeks, so a big concern of mine is that they'll be secluded to this room and that will affect their confidence when older.  Having them secluded right now I'm realizing already is very good for Phoenix, and the kittens.  I'm not sure the time when they should start exploring beyond the room.  Which is a concern for me because they can't go to the rest of the house because my ma is allergic.  I have a good friend that lives 2 miles away so was thinking it'd be good socialization to drive them there every other day or so when they get older to explore and get used to other cats and people.  But when is TOO early to bring them? And is that even a good idea?  I don't want to do more harm than good.  

4. I bought a couple yards of fleece for bedding.  How often should I wash this - is every day overkill? Or is every other good enough?

I'll be keeping them until 10-12 weeks old for manners/socialization purposes

Thank you so much for helping :)
 

Sarthur2

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Kittens start shots at 8 weeks old. Mom can be spayed when they are 8 weeks old, but will continue to nurse.

Kittens socialize more when they are 3-4 weeks old and begin leaving the nest. I would not drive them to a friend's house to explore. It will be very confusing. Your room will be fine. For now, the kittens need privacy with their mom.

The fleece can be washed 2-3 times a week.

The weights are very good. The kittens should weigh about 8 ounces at 2 weeks old.

Do you plan to keep mom after the kittens are weaned, or will she be returning to your friend's home?

Do you plan to neuter Phoenix?
 
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bomberphoenix

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I do plan on keeping mom - my friend is watching them until I save/buy a house.  I will then take back both Bomber and Phoenix.  Yes, I will be spaying Phoenix! :)

 
This is a couple hours after they were born


One day old




4 days old




Today (5 days old)

Phoenix is a very attentive mother with them! Very good mom
 
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bomberphoenix

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The kittens are 1 week old today 
 How are these weights looking?

PIDGE

(day 4) 4.80

(1wk)    6.05

KEITH

(day 4) 4.95

(1wk)    6.40

ALLURA

(day 4) 4.95

(1wk)    6.30 - EYES OPEN

MINA

(day 4) 5.45

(1wk)    6.75 - EYES OPEN

I bought some nutrical paste, how much should I be mixing in with her wet food? 
 

Sarthur2

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The weight gains are superb! [emoji]128077[/emoji]

The goal is to weigh 8 ounces at 14 days. They are well on their way.

Mix about one inch of the nutrical into mom's food. Some cats will eat it right from your finger.

Nice job! [emoji]128522[/emoji]
 
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bomberphoenix

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Thank you so much for your responses, you are very helpful!!

Oops, I've been giving her probably 4-5in 2x day, so I will just feed her 1in at one of the feedings
 

StefanZ

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Thank you so much for your responses, you are very helpful!!

Oops, I've been giving her probably 4-5in 2x day, so I will just feed her 1in at one of the feedings
With that dosage she may get runny poo, as these vitamin pastes are solved in fatty oils.

Also, too much vitamines may get too much, but it shouldnt be dangerous in these two days.  But good you dont continue with this big dosage.  Wait even a day or two, and continue with the smaller dose suggested.   If she isnt emaciated or the litter very big, she really doesnt need much extras.
 
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bomberphoenix

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Please help!

They are 6 weeks old now, starting a week ago I noticed one of them was a LOT smaller than the others.  And it seemed like maybe something was broken? I noticed she was laying down a lot and didn't seem to have a lot of energy.  And if I set up her and had her walk, she would take a step and then sit down.  Pretty sure it was one of her back legs.  

I got her into the vet the next day, the vet felt her up and moved her around, said it didn't seem like anything was broken but they could always take xrays.  She said even if something was broken, because of her age, there wouldn't be much they could do besides TLC.  But I would have just felt horrible if I didn't get the xray done and it ended up something was broken.  Turns out on the xray, her left pelvic bone looked like something was wrong with it.  It didn't seem broken, but it was a lot smaller.  She said she had a very full bladder and they emptied it.  Had me come in every day last week so they could empty it out again and keep an eye on progress (at no charge).  She is walking better now, and playing.  And every day she went in for a bladder emptying, they said they had to press less and less before the kitten did it herself.  They said because the one pelvis side was smaller than the other, if there was nerve damage, the urine might not be passing through both sides.  

Well this morning she now has a severe head tilt.  She lays down a lot but she also runs and plays, but with a pretty good head tilt.

And one of the other kittens is starting up in his back legs as well.  He is laying a lot and he does walk but he will actually cry a little when he does

I'm bringing them to the vet again tomorrow when they open, but I was really hoping someone with experience reads this.  Does anything seem familiar? 
 

Sarthur2

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bomberphoenix bomberphoenix

It's possible that they have cerebellar hypoplasia, which causes some of the symptoms you mention. You can read about it online. It's something to discuss with your vet tomorrow. In the meantime, I've asked catwoman707 catwoman707 to comment, as she has a great deal more experience with this than I do.
 
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bomberphoenix

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Thank you SO much, I really appreciate it.  I'll look that up now
 

catwoman707

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CH is not uncommonly seen in kittens really, so I would like to think the vet would have recognized it as such, rather than an underdeveloped pelvic bone.

The current head tilt doesn't follow this at all either. If it has just suddenly started that is.

I first thought perhaps it is the calicivirus called limping kitten calici, but it's been going on for too long now, as this virus comes and goes away in about 3 days, and doesn't leave head tilting kittens behind it.

It may still possibly be calici, but the head tilt is odd to me. 

Also the current kitten who has started this, does he still eat the same amt as usual or no? Does he feel fevered? You can feel the ears, bottom of paws (pads) for a fever, if your hands are not cold or hot, you should feel pads that are warmer than your hands, if you aren't sure if your hands are reg temp, place the paw pad on your neck to feel.

A fever would likely be a good sign, meaning it is probably calici, which is really the only virus that causes kittens to act limp and not walk.

It may also switch legs that they limp on.

Regardless, they are too young to not eat and drink, so be sure they take in the same amt as usual, or at least close to it. 

By the way, I LOVE the dry you are feeding mom and kids, I swear by the stuff.

Let me know!
 
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bomberphoenix

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Just got back from the vet.  They did bloodwork, and it didn't come back with anything that stands out for growing kittens their age.  They gave me deworming stuff.  Checked in her ears.  

They were asking questions about mom cat, and bad news! They found out that mom cat had vaccinations when she was pregnant, and I found out you're not supposed to do that.  So since she found that out, she really thinks it's the CH you guys were talking about.  The closest place to actually diagnose it is Cornell and she said we're talking $1500.  So I won't be testing for it.

I feel so terrible.  I had no idea she was pregnant until after the babies were born.  The other two don't show signs of it, I'm really hoping it stays that way.  And the other two, the ones that probably have it, have a decently mild case from what I've been seeing on youtube.  

Still have to figure out the head tilt though.  She said to deworm them, give it a week or so to see if anything improves, and if there are any turn-for-the-worse signs to call and get her back in
 

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It sounds like things will be okay. The kittens can live normal lives. You can ask to put them on antibiotics and steroids, just in case it's a virus of some sort, to see if that helps. It won't hurt.

I had an adult cat that I'd had since she was a kitten that suddenly developed back leg paralysis and a head tilt. It was bad! She took antibiotics and steroids for a month, and it cleared up completely! Never really knew what it was.

The vaccine theory is a possibility.
 

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Just got back from the vet.  They did bloodwork, and it didn't come back with anything that stands out for growing kittens their age.  They gave me deworming stuff.  Checked in her ears.  

They were asking questions about mom cat, and bad news! They found out that mom cat had vaccinations when she was pregnant, and I found out you're not supposed to do that.  So since she found that out, she really thinks it's the CH you guys were talking about.  The closest place to actually diagnose it is Cornell and she said we're talking $1500.  So I won't be testing for it.

I feel so terrible.  I had no idea she was pregnant until after the babies were born.  The other two don't show signs of it, I'm really hoping it stays that way.  And the other two, the ones that probably have it, have a decently mild case from what I've been seeing on youtube.  

Still have to figure out the head tilt though.  She said to deworm them, give it a week or so to see if anything improves, and if there are any turn-for-the-worse signs to call and get her back in
Ahah! Yep, that would explain it....

Vaccinating a momma cat in the end of pregnancy usually has no effect on the unborn, but in the first 5-6 weeks it very well can, especially in the first month of pregnancy.

The fact that it's very mild would explain why it wasn't seen earlier.

So while it might seem like bad news, in fact, it is not. CH in mild form doesn't effect them much once they are maturing, coordination improves, etc.

There is no pain what-so-ever, and it will never advance further or have any effect on their future or heath.

FYI-what vaccinating a prego mom also does is cause a delay in the kittens maternal antibodies, meaning when those are still present and kittens are vaccinated, the antibodies can and will fight off the vaccine and give you a false sense of protection, so be sure they get all 3 kitten vaccines, consecutively, 3-4 weeks apart, which is really the purpose of having 3 rather than 1 as adults get :)
 
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