Convincing people who feed only or predominantly dry cat foods to their cats.

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moggiegirl

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Are we allowed to post you-tube videos? I would like to post something. I also would like to say that cats in the wild don't have easy access to food 24/7. And cats did evolve to get water from their food and eat a very moist high protein and very low carbohydrate diet. That's what they eat in the wild. The fact is dry kibble just isn't species appropriate for a cat, way too many unnecessary carbohydrates and largely lacking in moisture.
 

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What's wrong with Fancy Feast wet fish cans? My cats love fish once a day. Their two other meals are Fancy Feast meat cans.
Feeding too much seafood too often can result in a cat who gets addicted to eating it and will refuse to eat anything else. Some cats may develop urinary isssues. Some types of fish may contain mercury. It's best to limit seafood to occasional meals or treats.
 
Isn't dry food better for their teeth?
No, that is a myth. No food keeps teeth clean in any way. Only regular toothbrushing will keep teeth clean, just like it does in Humans.

http://www.thecatsite.com/a/does-dry-food-actually-clean-your-cats-teeth
 
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moggiegirl

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Isn't dry food better for their teeth?
No, in fact it does the same thing for their teeth as pretzels, crackers and potato chips do for our teeth, leave starchy residue. And a cat's teeth is only one part of the cat.
 

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@Anne  I am so glad to hear what you have to say, I have been stressing out about how to get my kittens to eat wet food. They were weaned onto dry, and while one is happy to eat wet the other only ever takes a few small bites. She's very enthusiastic about her dry food though. The simplest thing to do would be to give her the best quality dry food and give her broth and cat milk to drink as well as water, but I've been feeling really guilty about this, like I'm condemning her to kidney disease if I don't make her eat wet. 
I'm glad I can help. Again, I think feeding only wet is a very legitimate choice. So is feeding dry. I strongly believe there is no "right-size-fits-all" solution here. 

Also, I got a scientist friend to send me the full copy of the study. As far as I can see, the researchers basically say that their results did not match their assumption that there would be a difference due to diet. There was no significant difference in PH levels (even though there was a difference in the amount of urine produced).

As for the "cats evolved in the wild" argument. It's flawed it many ways and should not form the basis of cat care practices. For two reasons - 

1. Not all wild cats are desert cats. There's a huge variety in cat's tendency in the wild to drink water and many do in fact drink large quantities of water. I live in the Middle East and we have original wild cats around. Trust me, they drink just as any other animals does when given access to a fresh supply of water. They had that back in Egypt (the Nile and irrigation systems). 

2. Several other key factors differentiate our cats from their ancestors of several thousands years ago. Most cats are kept indoors, with a more constant environment in terms of temperature, far more food and generally less exercise. They are also almost all neutered. All of that means that it's not a simple case of "wild cats do X and so should our cats".

I'm not even talking about possible genetic changes. We know dogs have undergone certain genetic mutations after domestication which directly affect their dietary requirements. No one has checked that about cats yet. It's not unlikely that there are some physiological differences in our cats compared to their ancestors of thousands of years ago.

All of that means we should be very very careful with the "wild cats" argument. In this case, I suspect it's mostly a "natural fallacy".

And again, feed all wet if you think this is a good solution for you and your cat. That's entirely ok, IMO. As long as you feed a food that's designated as nutritionally balanced, IMO that's a lifestyle choice.

The only thing I don't like is when some people Insist that feeding all dry somehow hurts healthy cats. It may. Feeding all canned may as well. We just don't know. And until we have much more solid scientific evidence, neither the "natural argument" nor a single study carried on 6 cats for 10 days, should make owners feel guilty about choosing to feed dry.
 
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Most dry cat foods have an excessively large amount of carbohydrates. When a male cat gets a urinary blockage it's likely that he has been on a dry diet and this is due to lack of water. When a cat gets diabetes, a high carb diet is likely the culprit. The evidence is in the illness. This is not about making cat owners feel guilty. Dry cat food really isn't healthy for cats. It's suspected of causing a lot of health problems. There is a video I really want to post. Are we allowed to post you-tube videos?
 
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This is what I wanted to post. If we're not allowed to post you-tube videos I'm sure someone will let me know. I just don't like it when I see cats with health problems that can be avoided on a moist diet. I have seen cats get urinary problems that probably would not have happened on a wet diet. I have seen obese cats that wouldn't be so obese on a water rich high protein very low carbohydrate diet. Diabetis is suspected to be caused by the heavy carbs in dry food. Dry kibble is suspected to contribute to a whole list of diseases including inflammatory bowel disease, even cancer. I know a lot of things can cause cancer but if the high amount of corn, wheat, rice, potatoes is causing intestinal upset in a cat over the long term...Please check out this video. I do not believe in making cat owners feel guilty. That is not the point. I'm all for what is good for cats. 

 
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Anne

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No problem with posting videos (as long as they're not self-promotional). I went ahead and embedded the video for you so it's easier to watch here. 

Having watched that, I went and Googled the expert. With all due respect, March Ching is a holistic veterinarian. Personally, I take things holistic vets or doctors tell me with a HUGE grain of salt. By definition, that term "holistic" almost certainly means he's approach is not evidence-based medicine. I checked his Linkedin profile and it says - 
I am also a herbalist, homeopath, and a Kampo medicinal healer for both humans and animals specializing in digestive disorders, cancer, fungus and renal failure.
I'm a skeptic and very pro-science and this description raises every red flag in my book, sorry. A specialist does not treat fungus, cancer and renal failure and definitely not in humans AND animals. I'm not even sure it's legal for a veterinarian to be treating humans.

I'm also not sure what kind of formal training he has as a veterinary nutritionist. Again, going by his Linkedin profile, I suspect none but I can't say with certainty. 

Last, but not least, he makes his money selling homemade raw food to cat and dog owners. I wouldn't call his opinion unbiased, but that's just me. 

Sorry about going all ad-hominem here. He seems like a great guy who also got involved with rescue operations. Good for him. I wouldn't consider his advice about pet nutrition as superior to anyone else's. For me, what matters is the scientific evidence. Very clearly, to Dr. Chang it doesn't. Which is fine, to each his own, it's just that this specific video does not impress me and does not change my mind one bit.
 
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There is also Dr Elizabeth Hodgkins (and others). I have read her book. She is very devoted to preventing diabetes and other health problems in cats. I feel strongly that this information has come out for a reason. And I cannot subscribe to the belief that there is no evidence that a canned or carefully balanced homemade raw diet is superior to a diet of dry kibble most of which is loaded with a lot of carbohydrates when the evidence is showing every time a cat comes into a vet clinic with a health problem that could have been prevented by feeding a species appropriate diet. For this reason more and more vets are recommending canned food over kibble. Is that not scientific enough?

And I see stuff happening right in front of me. My Dad's male cat had urinary blockages from struvite crystals. He was treated with a urinary dry formula instead of wet food and continued eating only dry his whole life. The blockage was fixed but this cat did not live long, he became overweight, had cysts and eventually died of cancer. His female cat is overweight and I'm concerned her diet could lead to diabetes or some other health issue.
 
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Anne

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Again, the carbs/protein balance is an entirely different topic. There are protein-rich dry foods and carb-laden canned.

I think it might help if we can stick to one topic in this thread and since it started with dry vs. wet, that would be easier. I also don't think a carb-rich diet is good for cats. I just don't think that's related to canned vs. dry. 

And scientific evidence is not a question of belief, sorry. If you prefer to feed canned-only because of people like Chang and Pierson, by all means, do so. I don't think you're going to hurt your cat if you feed all wet. Just know that there is not enough scientific evidence to support what they're saying at this point. 

Have you read my interview with Dr. Martha Cline? She's a veterinarian who actually is a certified pet nutrition expert and is very evidence-based.

I think it can be extremely frustrating to discover just how many things we do for our cats (and that includes some of the things our vets recommend) are not substantiated enough in terms of the science behind them. However, frustrating as it may be, I also think it's our duty as cat owners to be able to tell when what we're doing can be backed up by science and when it can't - and to what extent.
 
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What makes the carbohydrate issue related to dry versus wet is the fact that most dry foods do have a lot more carbohydrates. So it can't be a separate issue. It's all inter-connected. And as for the low carb dry foods, they tend to have a lot more calories as they are very concentrated. The water content in canned food reduces this which is important considering the problem of obesity in cats which leads to other health issues. Health problems that show up in cats are evidence. None of this is just about belief. I believe because I read about it and I learned and I see stuff happening to cats. I'll read the interview. I also brought up another vet, Dr Elizabeth Hodgkins and her commitment to helping diabetic cats and preventing diabetes.
 
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Again, the carbs/protein balance is an entirely different topic. There are protein-rich dry foods and carb-laden canned.

I think it might help if we can stick to one topic in this thread and since it started with dry vs. wet, that would be easier. I also don't think a carb-rich diet is good for cats. I just don't think that's related to canned vs. dry. 

And scientific evidence is not a question of belief, sorry. If you prefer to feed canned-only because of people like Chang and Pierson, by all means, do so. I don't think you're going to hurt your cat if you feed all wet. Just know that there is not enough scientific evidence to support what they're saying at this point. 

Have you read my interview with Dr. Martha Cline? She's a veterinarian who actually is a certified pet nutrition expert and is very evidence-based.

I think it can be extremely frustrating to discover just how many things we do for our cats (and that includes some of the things our vets recommend) are not substantiated enough in terms of the science behind them. However, frustrating as it may be, I also think it's our duty as cat owners to be able to tell when what we're doing can be backed up by science and when it can't - and to what extent.
Because most dry foods have a lot more carbohydrates than most canned foods it can't be a separate issue. Rather it is all inter-connected. Low carb dry foods are more concentrated and therefore have a lot more calories which is important to consider when dealing with obesity and obesity related health problems in cats. A water based high protein low carbohydrate cat food isn't so concentrated. I have looked through your links but probably need to read them again with more focus. While it's true that cats have the opportunity to get health problems because they're living longer than they would in the wild I don't think this proves that these health issues aren't diet related. Also all this information coming out abou dry food not being such a healthy choice for cats is not based on belief. Health issues coming up in cats are evidence. I have also mentioned Dr Elizabeth Hodgkins who is devoted to helping diabetic cats and preventing this disease.
 

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What makes the carbohydrate issue related to dry versus wet is the fact that most dry foods do have a lot more carbohydrates. So it can't be a separate issue. It's all inter-connected. And as for the low carb dry foods, they tend to have a lot more calories as they are very concentrated. The water content in canned food reduces this which is important considering the problem of obesity in cats which leads to other health issues. Health problems that show up in cats are evidence. None of this is just about belief. I believe because I read about it and I learned and I see stuff happening to cats. I'll read the interview. I also brought up another vet, Dr Elizabeth Hodgkins and her commitment to helping diabetic cats and preventing diabetes.
Why would dry foods necessarily have more carbs? I don't see the issues as connected, sorry. 

I respect that you're very passionate about this topic and that's great. As I've said repeatedly, I think that choosing to feed all canned may be a great option for you and your cats. Just like feeding homemade/raw can be a good option for others.

I'm not here to fight for "the cause of feeding dry". I don't think that's a cause in its own right. I do think we should all be careful about criticizing other people's choices in feeding cats where it comes to issues that are not backed up by enough studies.

For example, the fact that cats need enough taurine in their diet? That's an established scientific fact. If someone were to post about feeding an all-vegetable diet without supplementation then we could all agree about the danger of such a diet.

As long as you know what's good and what's not good about cat food formulas and choose the best you can afford (which is true for canned food as well, of course), feeding all-dry is a legitimate choice (while feeding all vegetables is not). Will that change in the future? Possibly. With more data that may change. I've known many many cats who thrived and lived to a ripe all age eating nothing but dry cat food. I'm sure other experienced (that's a nice word for old 
) cat owners have as well.

These are all anecdotes in the end. Without actual data, we can't really say much either way. Which is why it's important IMO not to get on a crusade-mode about feeding wet vs. dry and be respectful of other people's choices.
 
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Why would dry foods necessarily have more carbs? Reading the nutrient analysis and list of ingredients will tell you. Dry foods are typically made with a large amount of grains and/or starches about 40 to 60% carbs compared to 10% or less in a canned food. Canned food is 78% water so grains and starches are not required to produce wet food but grains and starches are used to produce dry food.
 
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It is both Dr Lisa Pierson's paper and Dr Elizabeth Hodgkins book "Your Cat" that has convinced me that there is plenty of evidence that wet food is a much healthier choice for a cat than dry food. Dr Hodgkins has successfully treated diabetic cats by having their owners switch to all wet and the fact that cats on wet food rarely get struvite crystals and the resulting urinary blockages is convincing to me too. Yes, I'm passionate about this topic because it upsets me to see a cat suffer a health issue and therefore have a shorter lifespan that could have been prevented through a healthier diet. However I don't want to upset any forum members here and I understand there will be no winning this debate. I will not change my position on this topic. I'm just going to agree to disagree.
 
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MoochNNoodles

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@Anne  I am so glad to hear what you have to say, I have been stressing out about how to get my kittens to eat wet food. They were weaned onto dry, and while one is happy to eat wet the other only ever takes a few small bites. She's very enthusiastic about her dry food though. The simplest thing to do would be to give her the best quality dry food and give her broth and cat milk to drink as well as water, but I've been feeling really guilty about this, like I'm condemning her to kidney disease if I don't make her eat wet. 
I'm a little late to this; but I want to reply to you.  My girls are 11 years old and i have tried a few times over the years to get them to eat primarily wet food.  As kittens they were weaned to the dry food the shelter used; one of the common kitten foods (I can't remember which now.).  That wet attempt resulted in a lot of puking; so I looked for a better quality dry that was in my budget.  Other attempts to add wet food have shown me my girls cannot tolerate beef.  One cannot tolerate fish.  Certain brands make them puke altogether.  Through a lot of trial and error we've found some Fancy Feast flavors that work for them.

During that last attempt to add wet; both my girls started to display health problems.  (They are litter mates.)  Noodles has had a murmur from birth and was diagnosed with Congestive Heart Failure almost 2 years ago.  Around the same time Mooch started dropping weight and eating less and less.  After testing (blood and ultrasound) we found her liver values were elevated and there was enlargement in the biliary structure.  With daily medication; both of my girls have improved.  I have come to have a good working relationship with our 2 vets.  (In fact the other day I had to take Mooch for an enema.  You know you've gotten comfortable with your vet when the first thing they say to you after you answer the phone is "WE HAVE POOPAGE!!!" 
)  

So in all that; both girls lost weight to the point you could feel their hip bones and I bought an infant scale to monitor their weight at home.  The vet and I discussed food options and I had to come to terms with the fact that feeding a balanced dry was better than having them not eat enough with the wet.  Continuing to push the wet was going to kill my cats.  So now I offer both.  Mooch gets a gravy based one (which means it will have grains) because she needs Mirilax twice daily to counter the effects of her meds.  Noodles still gets grain free; but we also have dry available to both. Both enjoy our pet fountain.  You could call it a middle-of-the-road approach; but it's working.  In my conversations with the vet I remember talking to one about how crazy it seemed that both developed these problems at the same time. Different problems; but at the same time.  The vet said there could be a genetic component.  I do know they were born on the street and taken in to the shelter with their mother and 2 other litter mates.  

It was a hard time; but I've found that you have to do what works for your cat.  Even what works for Mooch hasn't worked for Noodles.  Just like people do better on different kinds of diets/nutrition programs.  I still try to feed grain free with the wet aside from Mooch's mirilax laced stuff).  But right now keeping them eating means they are getting Purina Naturals dry food.  They ate better quality for basically the first 9 years of their life.
  But this is working right now.  They are back to being active. Their coats are healthy.  Mooch's last blood work was the best it's ever been.  I've had cats live decent long lives on grocery store dry food.  I've had cats that did develop health conditions.  Nutrition is only one part of a cat's health.  Genetics and environment/stress play a part too.  

I hope all my rambling has given you some reassurance that you are not alone in having to feed dry.  Do the best you can for your cats and let go of guilt.  That's all you can do really. 
 
 

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No, that is a myth. No food keeps teeth clean in any way. Only regular toothbrushing will keep teeth clean, just like it does in Humans.
Actually, there IS a type of food that does clean your cat's teeth pretty well, and you don't have to brush their teeth either (though some people still choose too, if they wish). Raw food keeps cat's teeth AMAZINGLY clean, especially the RMB's that they have to chew on with their back teeth. Honestly, I'd suggest giving your cat a chicken wing or two once/twice a week to help keep their teeth clean, they do wonders!

My cats are roughly 2 years old atm, and the only one who has any plaque buildup is my 8month old kitten who is a little fussy with her bones. The other two babies have sparkling white teeth, which I'm /super/ proud of :-)
 

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A lot of people are unwilling for various reason to feed raw in any form. So regular cat food of any kind will not clean teeth in any way.

Teeth brushing is still a good idea even with raw bones and such, IMO.

Some cats are just prone to dental issues even with regular teeeth brushing and / or raw bones. It's likely genetic. One of my cats has a minor FORL which will be dealt with at the dental appoointment in October. I feed both cats raw and brush their teeth daily.
 
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I'm a little late to this; but I want to reply to you.  My girls are 11 years old and i have tried a few times over the years to get them to eat primarily wet food.  As kittens they were weaned to the dry food the shelter used; one of the common kitten foods (I can't remember which now.).  That wet attempt resulted in a lot of puking; so I looked for a better quality dry that was in my budget.  Other attempts to add wet food have shown me my girls cannot tolerate beef.  One cannot tolerate fish.  Certain brands make them puke altogether.  Through a lot of trial and error we've found some Fancy Feast flavors that work for them.

During that last attempt to add wet; both my girls started to display health problems.  (They are litter mates.)  Noodles has had a murmur from birth and was diagnosed with Congestive Heart Failure almost 2 years ago.  Around the same time Mooch started dropping weight and eating less and less.  After testing (blood and ultrasound) we found her liver values were elevated and there was enlargement in the biliary structure.  With daily medication; both of my girls have improved.  I have come to have a good working relationship with our 2 vets.  (In fact the other day I had to take Mooch for an enema.  You know you've gotten comfortable with your vet when the first thing they say to you after you answer the phone is "WE HAVE POOPAGE!!!" :lol3: )  

So in all that; both girls lost weight to the point you could feel their hip bones and I bought an infant scale to monitor their weight at home.  The vet and I discussed food options and I had to come to terms with the fact that feeding a balanced dry was better than having them not eat enough with the wet.  Continuing to push the wet was going to kill my cats.  So now I offer both.  Mooch gets a gravy based one (which means it will have grains) because she needs Mirilax twice daily to counter the effects of her meds.  Noodles still gets grain free; but we also have dry available to both. Both enjoy our pet fountain.  You could call it a middle-of-the-road approach; but it's working.  In my conversations with the vet I remember talking to one about how crazy it seemed that both developed these problems at the same time. Different problems; but at the same time.  The vet said there could be a genetic component.  I do know they were born on the street and taken in to the shelter with their mother and 2 other litter mates.  

It was a hard time; but I've found that you have to do what works for your cat.  Even what works for Mooch hasn't worked for Noodles.  Just like people do better on different kinds of diets/nutrition programs.  I still try to feed grain free with the wet aside from Mooch's mirilax laced stuff).  But right now keeping them eating means they are getting Purina Naturals dry food.  They ate better quality for basically the first 9 years of their life. :rolleyes:   But this is working right now.  They are back to being active. Their coats are healthy.  Mooch's last blood work was the best it's ever been.  I've had cats live decent long lives on grocery store dry food.  I've had cats that did develop health conditions.  Nutrition is only one part of a cat's health.  Genetics and environment/stress play a part too.  

I hope all my rambling has given you some reassurance that you are not alone in having to feed dry.  Do the best you can for your cats and let go of guilt.  That's all you can do really. :)  
I too would rather see a cat on dry than starve. If Rosie didn't eat enough I would bring back some dry. Fortunately she does.
 

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If a vet reccomends dry food over wet (sans any health issue), I go to another vet as my primary. Their kidneys need the moisture from wet unless they drink a fair amount of water. I studied the issue up and down. Wet is best, but every cat is different. Our Miss Jane refuses anything but dry. I worry about kidney issues as she ages.
 
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