Question about feral cats abandoning their kittens..

commanderscott said:

Lucille and Hercules are eating so much now and they're still hungry even after 8 mL. I'm going to feed them again, then head to the store with my mother. My VA money came in two days early, so we're going to get a scale, a crate, and stock up on formula. Should I buy anything else for these little guys? They're thriving. Loud voices. Getting very strong. Eating more and more. I don't anticipate them passing away so may as well invest in their future now.

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Yeah, as they thrive and gain, so they need more food... So this 56ml a day will be more and more. As the rule of thumb of 8ml / oz a day is the same...   Im happy they are thriwing - and Lucille has no problems with eliminating any longer.  Herkules is yet to make his delivering - but it should come, this way or another.

When they eat so much, it is easier with a bottle. Still bottles has own problems too, so best perhaps if you find bigger syringe...

If you find glucose sugar proper, its always good to have at home. Both for cats and humans.  Otherwise, its possible to use honey as a source of glucose.

It will be soon time to perhaps deworm them.  Pyrantel poamoate preparates are mild, so they can be used on rather young kittens...

The allround Milbomax is supposed to be able to use on already on 2+ weeks kittens...

This is nothing hurrying, but good you begin to look what you can get OTC, which is safe and good - not aall OTC preparates are safe.

commanderscott said:

I will start off with diluting the KMR and running the warm water over the butt. That seems like a good starting point. I would start with the oil but I'm terrified of diarrhea. Lucille is going after every meal now. Hercules isn't. If he doesn't go by end of today, I will add a couple drops of olive oil to his breakfast and see if he responds to it. Thanks!

I'm also going to need a bigger syringe. These little guys are hungry.

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If Lucille is pooping, don't change her kmr. Be careful not to add too much water for Hercules. They need all the nutrients they can get.

And I would go ahead and try the oil. You only add a few drops per bottle and it shouldn't cause diarrhea.

talkingpeanut said:

If Lucille is pooping, don't change her kmr. Be careful not to add too much water for Hercules. They need all the nutrients they can get.

And I would go ahead and try the oil. You only add a few drops per bottle and it shouldn't cause diarrhea.

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I agree on everything here.

Also, the oils mentioned arent no potent ricine oil which is renown to give runny poo and with humans used medically for this reasons.  OR as bad practical jokes, no?

.  These are good food oils so in low dosages, one drop at a time, they are just healthy.. 

The trick is with addition of these oils like olive or canola, when Hercules begin to do his poo, you immediately cut down the amount - from say 3 drops to 1-2 drops.

As there is some time delay, it works beautifully.

You may calmly try all three solutions at once.  Its no high science, but being practical.  When he eliminates as he shall, you wont know exactly which tip worked best, but you and he will be relieved something did worked.  

Okay! Will do the oil as well then. 3 drops of olive oil per feeding sound okay? And how many feedings do I add oil to?

Also Hercules is sucking on the syringe. I'll try the bottle for him again today. Lucille still hasn't figured it out though. We're getting a 5 mL syringe and a 10 mL one. Bigger syringes means less time filling up. Faster feeding. More sleep for me.

I'm glad to gear how well they are eating!

I'm not a fan of diluting formula at all, nor do you need to mix it with goat milk. The formula itself has all the nutrients the kittens need. Also, PetAg powdered formula is preferred, or GNC or Royal Canin. NEVER use Hartz or Sergeants!

Adding 1 drop of olive oil to each of Hercules' formula feedings will only soften his poop so he can pass it. It will not give diarrhea.

Please let me know how much they each weigh after you get your scale today.

Would the dogs eat the cat food if you put it under the house?

I have a problem with Hartz. I never use any of their products. I'll do some research on Sergeants as well. Fortunately we were able to get the same formula today. So they're set. No goats milk. I diluted Herc's formula a bit since he's not urinating nearly as much as his sister. His urine is a very soft yellow. Not dark at all and looks clear coming out. Even if he doesn't have a steady stream like Lucy is he okay? He eats like a maniac. Shows no sign of distress. If they're up to it I may end up feeding them 9 mL today depending on their weight. They're always so hungry even after they've taken the 8. Im sure Herc could eat 10 mL if I let him but I don't want to over feed them. But I'm amazed at their progress so far. Two days ago they had a hard time taking 3 mL and now they're eating almost three times that much with ease.

Lucille had a very healthy BM. Earlier it was just a spot or two. It just came right on out this time. While helping Herc go, I could tell he's working on it too. Some showed up on my glove. (I wear latex medical gloves if using my fingers.) I'll go ahead and add a drop of olive oil to his formula for the rest of the day and see if that helps.

I'm worried they're not gaining enough weight. But with how much they're eating now, and how much energy they have, I'm sure they'll gain it in no time. They were 6.5 ounces on Thursday. How much should they weigh today?

And yes. They can crawl under there still. We tried to barricade it off while leaving enough room for Momma but we're blessed and cursed with insanely intelligent dogs. I put the food under there yesterday and they ate it.

It is almost impossible to overfeed a growing kitten, so give them as much as they want!

I just need to know how much they actually weigh as soon as you get your scale. Will that be today? It's the only way to know if they are eating enough.

Please do not dilute the formula. What brand are you using?

Okay. I'll feed them until they push away then. As long as it's the minimum. I won't dilute it again. They were drinking canned KMR but now we have it in a carton. I'll post a picture of the container and ingredients as soon as my mom gets home with it.

Yes! She got the scale and she'll be coming home with it soon. I told her to get me a kitchen scale that weighs in grams or ounces. I'll know what they weigh before next feeding time -- so within the next hour or two.

commanderscott said:

I have a problem with Hartz. I never use any of their products. I'll do some research on Sergeants as well. Fortunately we were able to get the same formula today. So they're set. No goats milk. I diluted Herc's formula a bit since he's not urinating nearly as much as his sister. His urine is a very soft yellow. Not dark at all and looks clear coming out. Even if he doesn't have a steady stream like Lucy is he okay? He eats like a maniac. Shows no sign of distress. If they're up to it I may end up feeding them 9 mL today depending on their weight. They're always so hungry even after they've taken the 8. Im sure Herc could eat 10 mL if I let him but I don't want to over feed them. But I'm amazed at their progress so far. Two days ago they had a hard time taking 3 mL and now they're eating almost three times that much with ease.

Lucille had a very healthy BM. Earlier it was just a spot or two. It just came right on out this time. While helping Herc go, I could tell he's working on it too. Some showed up on my glove. (I wear latex medical gloves if using my fingers.) I'll go ahead and add a drop of olive oil to his formula for the rest of the day and see if that helps.

I'm worried they're not gaining enough weight. But with how much they're eating now, and how much energy they have, I'm sure they'll gain it in no time. They were 6.5 ounces on Thursday. How much should they weigh today?

And yes. They can crawl under there still. We tried to barricade it off while leaving enough room for Momma but we're blessed and cursed with insanely intelligent dogs. I put the food under there yesterday and they ate it.

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To avoid misunderstandings:  do NOT use Hartz nor Sargeant, if you do have any choice.  Sometimes they works OK, but there are also reports of sudden collapses.

I myself suspect they have an uneven quality control, they or their sub contractors.

Healthy kittens add typically about 10+ grammes a day, its slightly over 1/3 oz.  Some may add more, even 20+.   A very small, or convalescent, may perhaps be happy with less 6+...

Hercules sounds as somewhat dehydrated - not much, but some.  If you dont want to dilute the kmr / goats milk - which is a common advice with constipation  - there is another possibility: simply to give a few drops of water or pedialyte between the feedings... So the water intake is bigger, and the food amount the same.

Sometimes it helps with trying with another brand of kmr.. Even with an otherwise good kmr. .Goat milk is  a good alternative in such cases.  But as you cant find goats milk, the choices are perhaps limited - it depends on what you find.  SArthur mentioned earlier some reliable brands.

I will avoid both brands at all costs. I want to research them though so I can educate family members about it. Thanks so much for warning me about Sergeants. I knew Hartz was bad but didn't know about the other brand. I'll also try pinching the back of Herc's neck to see if the skin returns. Dehydration is no fun. Even if it's minor. If he's dehydrated we will get some water in him between feedings. Also I apologize for the misunderstanding. We got PetAg formula. The premixed kind.

I'm also very sorry for the lack of response. I got immensely ill and quite suddenly. I knew that if I tried to feed the kittens it would end very badly. So for my sake and theirs, I had to lie down and sleep a little extra to fight off whatever was plaguing me. Seems now just to be exhaustion. Sometimes I get incredibly sick with it (horrible vomiting). I'm only an hour behind their feeding schedule so right now I'm going to feed them the standard 8 mL I have been giving them, and then I will post their weights for everyone.

Yes, to clarify, I said NEVER Hartz or Sergeant's.

When the pre-mixed runs out, I suggest a can of the powdered PetAg KMR. Kittens prefer it, and it contains probiotics, and keeps longer.

So sorry you felt ill. Exhaustion is hard on the body. Caring for kittens is a big job. That's why I was hoping mom would show up.

I can handle being ill. I've got bipolar disorder. Not sleeping isn't foreign to me.

Weights before eating:
Herc - 7.5 oz
Lucy - 6.9

Weights after eating:
Herc - 8.1 (he was moving around quite a bit so this may not be accurate)
Lucy - 7.1

Lucy ate a bit less until she got used to it. Now she eats the same as her brother and they both guzzled down 9 mL. Herc sucked it right out. The plunger on this new syringe is easy so I let him set the pace. Any advice based on weight? Is Lucy too skinny or is Herc just too fat?

Also I did the "dehydration test" on Herc and his skin went right back. He also peed more this time around. Should I still add water between feedings? Just in case? I've still got that 1 mL syringe. Is that too much for him to take in? Should I go for .2 mL?

They are both good weights, and both have gained since you got them, which is great!

Kittens should weigh around 8 ounces at 2 weeks, and one pound at 4 weeks. They get their baby teeth at 4 weeks also. Female kittens tend to be smaller than males.

Try to weigh them at the same time every day. I am so glad they are eating well! [emoji]128077[/emoji]

I am SO glad to hear that they're gaining at a healthy, steady rate. I could cry. I know kittens this young can be a hit or miss. Thank you so much. I'm going to go be a bit emotional now LOL I'll feed them a steady amount, changing it each day to fit the 8*weight in ounces calculation. Again - THANK YOU. You've all been such an amazing help. I'll keep you updated on their progress. Next order of address: Getting Herc's bowels to cooperate. He's working on it though.

I think with the oil added, and now that he's eating so well, he'll be pooping normally in a day or two! [emoji]128522[/emoji]

I hope so! If they keep this up and their bodily functions are all a-okay, I can look forward to a long future with these guys. My grandmother still thinks we're not keeping them. Sorry, but feed a baby long enough and you develop a bond. They are, for all intents and purposes, my children. Just like Shepard. I'm not giving them up.

I was so worried because not too long ago we had to put another kitten to sleep due to digestive problems. Manx Syndrome killed her after a week with us. She wouldn't eat much. Wouldn't have BMs. Wouldn't pee much. But she played like crazy and I like to think we made her last week as positive as possible.

I'm so relieved to know that I'm doing an okay job. So, so relieved. This is the second time I've had to crawl under the house for a baby animal (the second was my dog, Lazarus, but his inspirational story is for another time). All that trauma I went through for these kitties to see them thriving just makes it all worth it. I HATE tight and dark spaces LOL "Get up and get those kittens then take them to a shelter after you invest all the time and effort and emotions" Yeah I don't think so! Babies are gonna be spoiled rotten.

It sounds like your grandma doesn't like animals!

Oh, she does. We've just got tons of them already and she doesn't want more. In a few days, once I know that the kitties are okay, I'll have her feed Hercules while I sit with her and feed Lucille. He's easy -- you don't have to push the plunger at all for him because he sucks it all out on his own. She'll get attached then. She didn't want Shepard, either. But now she's obsessed with her. I think that's her fear -- that she'll get attached to these kittens and send a message that it's okay to take in more animals than we can afford. But for the most part, I'm the one who takes the financial burden of taking care of them. Every once in a while my mother helps (in emergencies, for example) but for the most part, I pay for vaccinations and am currently budgeting to get Shepard fixed within the next few months. The vet told us to wait until she was six months old, and since all our cats are indoor kitties and we have no in-tact males (Hercules is the only male, in fact, and I don't think he'll be up to procreation for some time) I've got no problem waiting.

Speaking of, when should I make an appointment to get these kitties some dewormer and their first round of vaccines? Shepard got hers at 6 weeks. (I think she was older than the vet assumed. They said she came to us at 3 weeks, but she already had all of her teeth, was litter trained, and was eating dry food within two weeks of us getting her. She was either a very advanced 3 week old kitty, or she was older.) I don't think they have worms, but I want to be safe. I also have flea medication to give them once they hit 8 weeks. They do have fleas, though. Should I bathe them? And if so, what's the proper technique for it? I have Dawn soap. I also have a flea comb. Should I just rely on the flea comb until they're old enough to generate their own heat, and at what age will that be? I've been handling them only at feeding times so that they get all the sleep that their little hearts desire, so I've been putting off the flea comb. Their gums are nice and pink, but if they keep those fleas I fear they won't be that way for long. I'd rather take care of them now, if possible.

I'll also post pictures later today so you can see how fat Herc is getting. He's a little porker. It's so cute. They're ready for their big crate now too. I didn't get the chance to go out today to get it (which is good, since I got really sick anyway) so I'm going to go get it tomorrow. They're going to love that extra room for playing. They're starting to crawl all over each other and are slowly sleeping less and less. What size should I get them? They're going to be kept in my room, in the crate (minus feeding and cuddling times) until they're about 6 weeks of age, when I'll let them start exploring the house at night for a few hours under my supervision. But I need to keep them separated from Shepard at night until they're about 8 weeks old because she plays rough and she's got a few months on them in age. I plan on keeping it, too, for when they get old and need to be in a safe spot at night to prevent injury. Should I go for a really large one, fit for a large dog, or go for a smaller one for a medium dog for now and just upgrade whenever they need it? And should I get plastic, or wired? Herc is a climber and shows it with the door on the carrier they sleep in. Would the wire pose a threat to his safety, or would it offer an outlet for his energy?

Sorry for all the questions but considering all the kitties we've taken care of in the past few months, I figure if I ask them now, then I know for later. 

Did some research on Sergeants and goodness, I'm glad you warned me about them. I'm not sure if we used their products in the past but now we definitely won't. They're up there with Hartz in products that hurt animals. How it stays on the market with reviews like that, I've got no clue. Some people, I swear. :/