Stray kitten stuck. Help?

AbbysMom said:

She said story, not "story". No need for claws here.

Since this is an international forum, it doesn't happen very often where one member can take over the care of another member's cat/kitten, although it isn't the first time. For us, it really is an interesting story and I'm glad that so far it is working out well for all of you.

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Oh no! No claws intended! I was just puzzled what she meant by it.  I don't even now why I put the quotation marks. I really didn't think about it - pretty sleep deprived with this little one!  My apologies, if offense was taken.  I REALLY appreciate Sarthur2's advice. It may have saved Nemo's life. 

In retrosect, it is quite a story, isn't it? What are the odds that two people would join a list and one would almost immediately find herself in a crisis, and  the other would  find the solution to her own crisis in it? -or that we'd live less than a day's drive away from each other, and both be headed in the same direction the next day?  We live 8 hours away most of the time, and narrowed it to 2.

I joined, intending to ask for advice about my 7 and 9 year old cats, who are having a really hard  tiime since  our two more dominant cats died. Before I had a chance to introduce myself or my problem, I saw the thread ""Stray Kitten Stuck". The title instantly reminded  of  the time something chased our  cat Rose through a funnel shaped hole under our screen porch. She could get in, but only by force, and she oculd nto get out again.  We were beside ourselves - could not chisel her out - the channel was too long. We had to consider tearing up the foundation of our screen porch to get her out., but  that could have killed her too, We had no idea how much room she had or exactly where to drill. We called Animal Control, thining surely they've dealt with stuck animals before. They hadn't ever encountered this, but they came out and were  so wonderful. They spent half a day chiseling concrete with us, trying to think of solutions and most importantly, since we had small children,  keeping our morale up. Most people think of them in a policing, rather than helping capacity and may not realise they will come to an animal's aid.  Ultimately we had to put her on a crash diet, which we did with constant vet supervision, because she had a medical condition that made this very dangerous  It took 3 agonizing days, but on the third day, my son got a piece of smoked gouda and held it up to he, and she pulled herself through - scraped up, and very hungry, but okay.  We plugged the hole and had from then on have had indoor only cats from then on. The thought of another animal stuck under a house made  my hair stand on end!  It never occurred to me to offer to adopt it until Jessi posted the photo of her own little liberation success. And then I just had to! I had been deflecting offers of two adorable 4 month old kittens for 2 weeks, saying I ws holding ot for one that needed botte feeding. I truly wasn't, but when he turned up, and was close enough to reach. I thought - why not? He needed someone, and we lost someone, so...

The thing is, he is VERY young (10 days, we and the vet think) . I am going to need all your help and would hate to think a misunderstanding would stand in the way of people offering that help. I appreciate the opportunity to clear this up. 

sarthur2 said:

How is Nemo doing today?

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Pretty well!

He had a vet appoontment today, which went well. He was judged to be between one and two weeks old - I had guessed 10 days as of today - they said that is about right. His ears are opening and his eyes are the same as they were in Jessi's photo, so it's likely they opened early from the shock of his ordeal, but are still developing - I've seen that before with squirrels. 

Vet said he is too young to test for anything, so we're to go back in 3 weeks for a fecal test ( parasites). and later for blood draws. As for quarantine, she said 3-4 MONTHS for FIP WOW! But added that he can interact with our other cats - they just can't groom  him until then. I expect that includes sharing litter boxes. Peachy... I have enough shelter experience, and enough knowledge of catteries to know there is no such thing as a clean bill of health, and this is why - many diseases just don't present themselves in a reasonable time frame to make adoption possible. At least we know he hasn't been  exposed to anything but his mother's illnesses. That is better than any shelter cat gets. 

From what she could tell, she thought he was very healthy - a little dehydrated still, so she gave him some fluids, but she didn't advise me to give more pedialyte - felt his dehydraton was minimal and to be expected. .  I think I could be feeding im more often - I hate to wake him too often! But I think I will make sure he doesn't go past 3 hours unil he is further along. 

Weight was just 44 oz, so I came home and double checked my scale, and it showed he weighed 5.25 - the same as yesterday.. This is why I really dislike kitchen scales. They simply aren't accurate at these tiny weights and the ones that are are very expensive for anyone who isn't a reglar rehabber.  Still, not happy that he doesn;t appear to have gained any. Nothing to do but work harder at that. 

I asked if they get many this young and she said NO! Nor is there a lot you can do for them when they do. Nothing to do but feed him as much as possible. Going to order better nipples tonight - and maybe some silicone ones, which I LOVE for squirrels. Henry's is a wonderful resource http://www.henryspets.com/miracle-nipple/  the nipples petsmart carries are really too thick and  tough for a baby this small. 

I think that's it - pretty sleep deprived! 

Oops - posted a link to Henry's pets rehabbing supplies  in my update - didn't realise it would flag my comment for approval. So here is the abridged version - Little Nemo is doing great, but needs to work harder at eating eagerly and putting on weight. Vet visit went well, Got a small amount of fluids there. 

He wants to sleep 3.5 - 4 hours at a time. Going to have to interrupt his slumbers until he learns to eat more at a sitting. He's trying.  What he has done to that end is eat, doze lightly and then rouse and agree to eat some more. We'll get there. 

Handsome Kitty said:

 
The only thing that stands in the way of our advice is the poster leaving the site.

  We have pretty thick skins here.  But not everyone looking for help does.

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I like that, LOL.

It's the same on rehabber lists. Unfortunately, people often join during a crisis of some sort and  may be dealing with worry plus  a lot of defensive feelings they don/t want  -  embarrassment, guilt and even resentment and anger pop up when you take on an animal in need. Then someone says something and that person  becomes the scapegoat for all those feelings.  Happens on lists like this and also  happens when you try to stop someone from leaving an animal or child in a hot car. I will never in my life understand someone taking offense by that, let alone getting nbbeligerant about it at the expense of their child or pet, but as a friend's mother used to say - even cockroaches can have babies! 

I am sorry if I gave the wrong impression - especially to someone who has been helpful. 

No offense taken! I only meant it was an interesting turn of events. Much took place behind the scenes, and suddenly the kitten and the thread were yours! Now that you've explained all the pieces, the story comes together even better.

I'm thrilled that this seems to have worked for everyone involved, and hope that eventually your older cats' grief may be resolved when they begin interacting with Nemo. I've seen first-hand in my own household how much a cat can grieve, and it is incredibly sad.

I agree with the quarantine. As you said, many diseases do not show themselves right away.

Although I know how exhausted you are, is it possible to feed Nemo every 2 hours? He may gain better eating more frequently. I generally suggest hourly feedings for newborns, 2-hour intervals for two-week-olds, 3-hour feedings for 3-week-olds, etc. while the kittens are so young. They digest within 2 hours at this age.

Is he taking the bottle well?

He is an adorable looking kitten, and I can't wait to see how he grows! [emoji]128522[/emoji]

sarthur2 said:

No offense taken! I only meant it was an interesting turn of events. Much took place behind the scenes, and suddenly the kitten and the thread were yours! Now that you've explained all the pieces, the story comes together even better.

I'm thrilled that this seems to have worked for everyone involved, and hope that eventually your older cats' grief may be resolved when they begin interacting with Nemo. I've seen first-hand in my own household how much a cat can grieve, and it is incredibly sad.

I agree with the quarantine. As you said, many diseases do not show themselves right away.

Although I know how exhausted you are, is it possible to feed Nemo every 2 hours? He may gain better eating more frequently. I generally suggest hourly feedings for newborns, 2-hour intervals for two-week-olds, 3-hour feedings for 3-week-olds, etc. while the kittens are so young. They digest within 2 hours at this age.

Is he taking the bottle well?

He is an adorable looking kitten, and I can't wait to see how he grows! [emoji]128522[/emoji]

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I'm relieved!  I can see how weird that thread must have looked, now. 

My cats stayed in Georgia for the weekend, so when I got home, I took Nemo to my daughter's room and gave Lulu her usual greeting -  game we call 'make the bed'. She knew I had a creature, but was glad to have me put it away and come playwith her. Poupon stayed hidden, as I knew he would until people retired for the night. Then he typically comes and loves all over me. This is nothing new, but he's gotten worse since Babymilk died. 

About midnight last night, Nemo pooped all over himself, so I fed and bathed him. He really likes baths, especially after meals  I think the warm water is soothing on his tummy, and helps move things along. He purrs if I rub it under water. Lulu saw me head to the bathroom with him, so I left the door open so she could watch the show. She's seen me bathe roosters and squirrels and best of all - a duck, and let me tell you, that's entertainment! So I think that was a good place to introduce them - she was joined by Poupon, who gave me "What the heck" face and then demanded I follow him to the kichen to discuss it.  LOL, I think his message was "I don;t know what that was, but you beling in the kitchen, opening cans of catfood for me to sample." . As I write this, he is rolling around on a scrap of carpet my son sprinkled catnip on and is ignoring the fact that Nemo is 2 feet away. All of a sudden, he got up, walked over, and stared at him for  long time. I pet him and he rubbed against me and went back to his catnip. Occassionally he glances over to Nemo's box, just t make sure that little red thing isn't on springs. Lulu is asleep a few feet further away, and neither seems preoccupied with this change in their lives. So far so good, in that department.

I agree about feeding every 2 hours, so I am having a snack and heading to bed - and will likely nap a lot tomorrow because I'm pretty fried, and I have a good 3 weeks of sleepless nights ahead. . He is taking a bottle as well as any animal at this stage - it's quite a lot to ask of them, because it is not a natural feel or suckle, so I'm very peased that he had come to an agreement with it the very first day. However,  I don't think he has the stamina to do much sustained eating yet. He take a little, neds a break and comes back to it. I am trying to get him to come back one more time, but  he's been letting it dribble out of his mouth instead of swallowing.I can tell he is not full, but he just hits a wall, so obviously,  more frequent feedings are in order. Since I was the scratch & dent & odd lots foster person for our Humane Society, and I'd have bunnies one time and kittens another, I don't have their weights or amounts commited to memory. I really appreciate any helpful tips - like your rule of thumb  for how far apart feedings should be at different ages. I've also never had a kitten this young, but other than their obviously being more fragile, I find the younger ones to be the easiest - no habits to unlearn.  

Came up with a method that makes midnight feedings easier - filled a bottle and refrigerated it Then I boiled water and filled a thermos to put next to my bed. That way I don;t have to wait as long  for his formula to heat up, nor does he. With the water really hit, I just swish the bottle in the water a few times and test it on my wrist. I learned long ago that babies that have to wait between servings give up hope. 

He is adorable! He spends a fair amount of time excercising his ears, which are still flopped forward So he flaps them like Dumbo. I think his fur has grown since we got him - though I don;t know why, I think I may be keeping him too hot. At any rate, he is a fluffy thing. I didn't manage to take photos today, but will try to tomorrow. 

Ah! Very interesting read! Hearing about all the bad in the world constantly really makes you appreciate genuine human goodness. I am sure little Nemo will have a happy life with you! :3

Up waiting for water to boil - have to start with that for it to stay hot enough in my thermos to get the milk just right.

Lulu comes and sits just outside the open door each time I feed him. It reminds me of Trilby, the cat we had when my son was born. She slept across the doorway and would run and get me whenever he cried, and then sit on the arm of the chair while I nursed. When I had my daughter, she taught our other cat to do it, having decided, I guess, that being the nanny to one baby was quite enough. 

Nemo ate very well at his last feeding, but I can tell he hates these nipples. I ordered both types of the other sort but wish they were available locally. He gets frustrated not to be able to nurse, even as a pacifier after his meal. sometimes he will suckle  on the webbing between my thumb and forefinger, but seems to have decided that isn't good enough.  I encourage all my bottle babies and early weaners to find something to suckle on - for life if they want. It builds strong muscles for eating All my babies love a cotton chenille throw we call Red Mama. Red Mama has helped me foster many a foster kitten, and lulu still nurses on it, (there are actually two). I cut one of them up and bound the edges so that Nemo can have plenty for washing, and Lulu cn still have one, but Nemo hasn't discovered it yet. If anyone else tries this, make sure it has been washed several times to get the lint off, and use cotton, not rayon or other synthetic. For onething, those are cold, and for another, theywon't ake it. The cotton feels like a mama cat's tummy. Thebaby department of many stores have them, and so does Target in the fall and winter. That is where Red Mama came from. 

My husband thought he looked stronger last night than he had the previous day. Because of his work schedule he had not seen him in about 12 hours. Always good to get feedback from someone who isn't always there, and can give the distance perspective! 

I am so glad it is all working out! You will have a very sleepless time for the next fortnight or so, but we all know how rewarding that can be. With kittens that young (and I have had several to foster) I find a needleless syringe can work better if they are difficult with a bottle, and many are. If you squeeze the syringe gently in little squirts across the mouth so they dont choke, it is easier to get them to swallow it and you also know exactly how much they have had. I keep a selection of syringes - 5,10 and 20 ml and I find it such a relief to get milk or water inside them easily. You might bear it in mind if he still fails to gain weight. Good luck!

I agree with the tiny syringe usage if they have a hard time sucking. So much easier to control, and as Jenny said, you know how much they are getting. The tiny 1 mL syringe is perfect. Later, some fosters put a nipple on the end of the syringe.

Are you using the premixed or powdered KMR?

Regarding sucking to pacify, the blanket scrap sounds great! I had a cat once who suckled a teddy bear's fur her entire life to the point of leaving bare spots.

Some of our forumists recommend a clean makeup sponge soaked in KMR.

I'm enjoying hearing about your older cats' reactions to Nemo!

Jenny R, I have always favored syrnges myself, and yes - that cross the mouth approach is what I do until I know they can master the nipple, but the bottle worked better from the start with Nemo. He initially took the nipple crosswise and would bite it and then drink what came out and repeat. Now he takes the nipple properly and chugalugs about 10 times, and then stops, catches his breath, nibbles the nipple for short sips a few times and then chugalugs again. So he knows what to do. The problem is that he fills up ( in his mind) before I think he is really full, (by feeling his midsection) but I could be wrong. In any case, he drinks what he is comfortable with. The take home from that I think is to feed more often. I have set my phone alarm for 2 hours, and we'll see how fat he gets in the next day or so. 

He did get more efficent over last night, so I may not need the other style nipples after all, but we'll see. 

Interestingly, the other animal I have fostered who preferred the bottle right off, was Babymilk - the only  other kitten I've  bottle fed. Before that I've had slightly older kittens who preferred learning to lap from a dish. Sometimes they've been on their own and taught themselves to lap from a puddle before I got them.  Lulu was one of those. A very dirty puddle - came to us with treatment resistant giardia and umpteen other parasites.  

I have syringe fed squirrels and wild bunnies, and some of them didn't have their eyes open yet. There isn't really any difference between mamals at this stage - other than the size and shape nipple. Kittens are the wriggliest, and have the longest arms, which makes it more difficult to give them a place to knead while nursing. All mammals like to do that.  Wild rabbits are said to be the hardest to rehab, because they go into shock so easily. Mine were some of my easiest - go figure. Their nest was hit by a lawn mower (in our Humane Society's back yard :-( ) and the mother and one sibbling was killed.  I was immediately called, so they had no gap betwen feedings, which makes all the difference.  I used rescue remedy, which I (and many other rehabbers) swear by. I usually use it immediately, while I am warming the baby, but I forgot to bring it for Nemo. I just rub a drop in their ear and it calms them down. Those bunnies did great - released them in my yard, only to have a surprise thunderstorm hit an hour later, but they had run towards the woods so likely stayed dry enough. They would stop and watch me when I called to them and ha they've now colonized near my clover patch. 

sarthur2 said:

I agree with the tiny syringe usage if they have a hard time sucking. So much easier to control, and as Jenny said, you know how much they are getting. The tiny 1 mL syringe is perfect. Later, some fosters put a nipple on the end of the syringe.

Are you using the premixed or powdered KMR?

Regarding sucking to pacify, the blanket scrap sounds great! I had a cat once who suckled a teddy bear's fur her entire life to the point of leaving bare spots.

Some of our forumists recommend a clean makeup sponge soaked in KMR.

I'm enjoying hearing about your older cats' reactions to Nemo!

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I'm using the premixed but expect to switch to the powdered tomorrow and was going to ask what your preferred mixing method is and how much you would  mix at a time ( 24 hours worth or more and freeze some)? . I have one of those shakers with a wire ball in it. Do you have a better idea?

I would also like your opnion on goatsmilk vs KMR. I ask because I have access to farm fresn goatsmilk, and actually have some thawing to try in my refrigerator right now. I thought Nemo might like the taste better and have more solid poops with it. He clearly dislikes the formula - I never met an animal that liked it, in fact. He is pooping like clockwork (prefers assistance in going before every meal) but the consistancy is runny. Vet smelled and wasn't too concerned, but if goatsmilk is as nutritional and not as iritating to his stomach (or pallete) I am up for switching. 

So cosmetic sponges do work! Dh and I debated this in the pharmacy on Sunday. He convinced me not to try them because he thought the pores were too small to hold much. They seem like they would be a more natural feel, be less messy, which would give me a better idea of how much he is getting. 

So long as he really suckles, I can measure his meal. That's good for half his meal. The other half, it's hard to tell how much is going in him and how much is going everywhere else. BUT, he is improving in this department. I'm pretty confident he'll gain weight today. 

Would love advice on the nipple hole. I tried using a hot needle to make a hole and just could not get one he could pull anything from. I even used a leather needle, to no avail - nor did multiple holes help  (multiple homes is closer to nature and less likely to choke on) so I made the tiniest X possible with embroidery scissors. Milk won't fall out even with a strong shake, but squeezing the bottle can make quite a stream. Nemo seems to know this and act accordingly. I am thinking the ease with which he guzzles milk initially might be why he guzzles and stops instead of nursing for an extended period. 

So - does anyone have a favorite size needle? 

Is this a question, and the goatsmilk vs KMR one that is better posed elsewhere? 

Sounds like you have it all under control. I have never fostered rabbits or squirrels - I did help taking turns feeding a baby otter once, and I had an injured weasel fall out of a tree who refused to eat and I used a long syringe on him - he had very sharp teeth! The otter grew up to be a house otter and I used to visit him. He had a passion for handbags and would empty any bag on the floor, one item at a time, and then get inside.

Re; Goats milk vs KMR.  I don't think goats milk has taurine in it but it can be used.  Figure out what he likes but be careful of switching his food too many times, it will give him diarrhea or constipation.  When you do switch, add a drop of olive oil or some pureed pumpkin (baby food variety is good too) with no spices added.  It is a probiotic and can help with diarrhea and constipation.

I'm not sure of the hole size.  I had a 4 week old foster and we just cut off the tip to leave a hole for him.

My issue with the premixed is that it gives diarrhea and tummy upset. It also does not contain the probiotics that are in the powdered KMR. And I prefer the powdered PetAg. Royal Canin is excellent too.

Kitten poop on formula should be of toothpaste-like consistency. Most kittens seem to like the powdered formula.

I always mixed mine using a TINY kitchen whisk, but that is probably equal to your wire ball. I only mixed one cup at a time, and refrigerated the unused portion to re-stir, heat, and use throughout the day. It's so easy to make I saw no point in making and freezing a larger quantity.

I think you would see almost an immediate difference in Nemo's eating and pooping if you switched to powdered.

I think the important thing here is to settle on one food and stick with it, as switching between goat's milk and powder can cause tummy upset in and of itself.

Nipple hole should allow one drop at a time to be squeezed out when the bottle is squeezed. It can be made bigger as he grows.

Handsome Kitty said:

Re; Goats milk vs KMR.  I don't think goats milk has taurine in it but it can be used.  Figure out what he likes but be careful of switching his food too many times, it will give him diarrhea or constipation.  When you do switch, add a drop of olive oil or some pureed pumpkin (baby food variety is good too) with no spices added.  It is a probiotic and can help with diarrhea and constipation.

I'm not sure of the hole size.  I had a 4 week old foster and we just cut off the tip to leave a hole for him.

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Actually goat milk is exceptionally high in taurine, 20 times more than in cow milk. And it is very low in lactose, both of which make it very suitable for kittens. I used goats milk exclusively when I was rescuing cats in Bosnia, KMR was not available there then. I got in trouble once, showing off my language skills, when I said the goat milk I was buying was for an orphan kitten. Everybody scowled at me and I found out later it was because it is expensive and they thought I was wasting it on a cat, when they could not afford to buy it for their children. The dangers of cultural interchange.

JennyR said:

Sounds like you have it all under control. I have never fostered rabbits or squirrels - I did help taking turns feeding a baby otter once, and I had an injured weasel fall out of a tree who refused to eat and I used a long syringe on him - he had very sharp teeth! The otter grew up to be a house otter and I used to visit him. He had a passion for handbags and would empty any bag on the floor, one item at a time, and then get inside.

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Just read this aloud, and my son said "Oh! Otters must be my spirit animal! " LOL. 

My experiences with otters have not been friendly. I've watched them bloody females during mating, and beat up other animals at the zoo. But I guess in a house where they are the little guy, they might behave better! High entertainment value, at any rate. 

We STILL find nuts hidden by our first squirrel, whohad oe or less free run of the house 9-10 years ago. She was very clean, but did like to steal things and hide them. She  tucked nuts and other small items in places like behind book, and into upholstered chairs. She found a way to sneak into our basement and tucked them into stored boxes. She appropriated a doll house as her home, and built a colorful nest out of pipe cleaners and 10" long flags in it. Then she found a photo - which happened to be of an orb weaver spider, and made a door out of it. We'd call her and if she was mid nap, she'd pull back the door give us dirty look and slam the door.

All this advice regarding premixed vs powdered, and goats vs formula is VERY much appreciated - thank you! 

I am hesitant to switch food or supplies without very good cause. That is why I asked before trying the goat's. He did so well at his last feeding that I don;t think it would put him back much to switch to one or the other and those poops just don'tt look good. They are too loose. The question is which one? Opinions? I have both on hand - have not yet opened the powdered KMR. I only have access to KMR and GNC here. Don't trust GNC as a brand generally, so went with KMR. 

Love the suggestion of sweet potato. It's super healthy and is good added to adult cat's diet too. I will run pick some up after the next feeding and do the switch then. 

Thanks everybody! 

I just had a wonderful conversation with Leigh at Henry's pet rehabbing supplier.  They now have a line of  kitten and puppy food and supplies, which is great news, because their quality is very high, for every product they sell.  I know them to be the best for squirrels, and also to be extremely knowledgable and generous with advice, so I asked her about Nemo's loose stools and goat vs formula and canned vs dry versions. Here is what she had to say:

The two most common reason for loose stools is sensitivity to the formula and parasites. Based on my description, she doubted parasites were the cause. She said sometimes they can also get it from too frequent feedings, if one feeding is not digested before another is introduced. 

She recommended changing Nemo to goat milk but only for 3 days due to it lacking some nutrients cats need. She suggested a formula made of:

3 parts goats milk'

1 part plain yogurt

1 part heavy cream (but possibly leave out if his diarrhea is too bad. 

She said this is not complete nutrition but straightening out their digestive issues improves nutrition in the long run, so... I have goats milk and plain yogurt on hand, but no heavy cream, so I made up his next bottle from that. What a chow hound he became!  Took about 7 cc's. So, I guess I will be switching twice, but I may mix the two for a day or so until he gets used to the FV. Should be here Thursday. 

She also told me that the problem with premixed is it is over processed and has an emulsifier 

I ordered their Fox Valley formula, having used their squirrel version, the kitten is new.

In other news, his ears are beginning to stand up and his eyes look more like, well, eyes.  

That sounds terrific. I would have a few doubts about the cream, though. With my kittens I feed them goats milk to start, then at about two weeks start also offering them fromage frais (unsalted cream cheese) and/or greek-style plain yoghurt. All kittens love these treats and will quickly learn to lick it off my hand. That gives them the nutrients they need. The shelters here in France all use a similar mix. The lactose in cows milk is destroyed by the processing so it does not upset them. Don't forget to post more photos!