Feral kitten socialization advice

Ginny said:

 
Is there any way you could let them into your apartment from the shed?  That way, when you bring them back there it won't be totally unknown to them.  It'd be great if you could let them wander in on their own.  Kitties like to explore.  

I would ask the vet to tell you what will happen when you bring the kitties.  Where will they go when you drop them off....will they be sedated in the cage?  Etc.  It'll put your mind at rest to know what happens.  I understand how you feel.  I was worried about mine too.  They were fine.  

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Unfortunately not, my shed and apartment are two different buildings. The kittens do have some cat toys, a cat tree, and their little shelter in the shed that they are accustomed to and that I can bring into the apartment to provide them with some degree of familiarity. These items all should have their scent on them by now, so maybe having them around will calm them a bit, hopefully.

The vet visit is supposed to be a routine physical check-up, vaccinations, etc. I don't think they're old enough for spay-neuter (although I would love to do that now  if possible and will definitely bring that up). So I expect to bring them home immediately after the visit and don't think they will be sedated ... but you're right, I would feel better if I clarified these things first. I will ask.

Baar Baar Jinx said:

 
Unfortunately not, my shed and apartment are two different buildings. The kittens do have some cat toys, a cat tree, and their little shelter in the shed that they are accustomed to and that I can bring into the apartment to provide them with some degree of familiarity. These items all should have their scent on them by now, so maybe having them around will calm them a bit, hopefully.

The vet visit is supposed to be a routine physical check-up, vaccinations, etc. I don't think they're old enough for spay-neuter (although I would love to do that now  if possible and will definitely bring that up). So I expect to bring them home immediately after the visit and don't think they will be sedated ... but you're right, I would feel better if I clarified these things first. I will ask.

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Oh I thought you were going to have them fixed already.  If it's just a regular visit, request that they not be taken out of the room.  You can call ahead to ask if they take them in the back for any reason.  I don't think this has to be done personally but I see this at just about every vet I've been to here.  Others will tell you that their pet never goes to the back for any reason and that all the care and assessment takes place in the exam room with the owner present.  I think this is a better idea myself.  Anything can happen when they are out of your sight.  One poster on this site told about how her kitty was taken to the back and the door was open and she ran out and got lost.   I think that poster lived in the middle east, not in the US.  But this is one of my biggest fears.  

The more I think about it, the more I feel I should get them neutered now, along with the regular vaccinations/checkup, etc.  I really don't want to traumatize them twice. When I called and made the appointment, they said the vet likes to wait for the kittens to be 6 months, but I'm not sure how firm that is since I didn't press. I'm not sure how old they are, my guess based on circumstantial evidence would be would be  about 4 months, but I imagine that's old enough?

Or you could wait.  I didn't realize only 1 week has passed since you had said you were thinking about giving them more time to get used to you.  Time doesn't go as fast as I think it does sometimes.   I agree that getting it all done one trip might be better and less traumatizing in the long run.  But I would definitely ask about how the vet visit would go and if they were going to be taken to the back.  I think 4 months is old enough, but if this vet is not comfortable until 6, then you could wait and get them more socialized in the meantime.  

I would most definitely go for the s/n and vaccines now. No reason to wait until 6 months, by then one could get prego or male start spraying which might become habit.

Nope, one swoop and done.

I also think you should not patronize them adapting, put them in your apt but in one room with their scented items too for some comfort, but you will be amazed at how well they adapt, but don't give them the choice, they are only getting older and more set in their minds.

I did not read all the other posts, so someone may have already suggested this. You need to separate them. Maybe leave the black one in the outside shed and put the tabby in your bathroom. They feed off of each other. If the tabby has no one else but you and you sit with her, she will eventually come around. I know that it is sad to separate them because they love each other, but it is not purrrmanently, just until they are social with you. It usually doesn't take more than a week or two. Then you can bring the black one into the bathroom with the tabby. Keep working with them in there for another 2 weeks. If all is going well and they are being social with you, move to the bedroom or spare room. Ideally, where they cannot really hide, I blocked around the bottom of my bed with wood, so they could not begin to hide again. Again, work with them in there, playing, hand feeding treats, laser pointer (they will come very close to you if you put the dot on yourself) and let them run across your legs. Do not try to pet them. That way they won't feel like every time they are near you, you try to touch them. That will make them more comfortable with you. Definitely a good idea to have a radio or TV on to get them used to home noises. What about mom? Nobody ever wants the mommies. That is how I ended up with so many cats. I would foster moms and kittens, adopt out the kittens and end up with the moms because no one wanted them. Remember, cute little kittens, turn into adult cats, faster than you think. With the moms, you know what your getting also, you never know the true personality of a kitten until they are older. Moms need homes too.  

PS-Get them fixed now. Most rescues, shelters will do it as long as they are 2 lbs. I am sure they are bigger than that. Do not wait until 6 months old, also they need vaccines before then. Sounds like a lot of stressful trips to the veterinarian for kitties that are just getting adjusted. I would check around for another veterinarian that works with semi feral kitties and their needs.

When you can spay / neuter depends a lot on weight and health of the kittens, more so than age. Not to say it can be done to a really young kitten. I got male and female feral kittens done in May. My vet would not do the spay or neuter until after their shots and would not do it if the kittens were the least bit sick. My kittens where getting over an upper respiratory infection at the time. You should take them if for checkup and shots but I would not expect to get them spay / neuter at the same time. Make sure they are proper weight and healthy and then press to get the spay / neuter as soon as possible. Good chance male cat will spray in your apartment. Happened with my first two cats back in the 90s, put off getting them both neutered and they sprayed in my apartment. After neutered, no more spraying

Just thought I'd give everyone an update; I called a couple of local vets and none of them would schedule the initial visit and the spay/neutering at the same time. So it looks like we'll be stuck with two separate, traumatic vet visits. The initial visit will probably happen the last week of August, mainly due to financial and logistical/scheduling reasons on my part. I intend to schedule the spay/neuter as soon as possible after the first visit (if they give me a day in the same week I may be able to keep them in the carrier for that period which would be easier for all concerned; at least that's what I'm hoping). 

Meanwhile we seem to have made some progress with the socialization. They're well-acclimated to the carriers now; they actually run into them to be fed (which makes me feel much better about the day we have to go to the vet, I should be able to close the carriers without too much of a problem). They play with me around and sit very close to me at times. As i type, they're sleeping on top of each other, literally at my feet, although they will probably run when I stand up. Still, they don't usually run when I extend my hand towards them anymore. Surprisingly, Tabby (who's definitely a male) is now bolder, less frightened and less apt to run away  than Blackie who seems to have good days and bad (and may actually be a female; I may have been 100% wrong gender-wise in my initial impressions!). Neither comes to me for petting and neither is happy to be touched, but I'm more hopeful now than when we started the process. After the vet visit(s), they'll be going to my small extra bathroom where I am prepared to be back to square one, but am hoping their month in the shed will have made it made it easier for them to adjust to my apartment, their permanent home. 

I have an unexpected new problem; even as I am in the process of socializing and adopting these two kittens to be indoor-only, I have begun to realize that my outside-only, TNR'd semi-ferals are really very, very friendly. Two of them in particular come running to me, solicit petting, and purr. They stand outside my window and stare in all the time. They are probably about a year old at this point and I have been feeding them since they were kittens. I would almost say they are friendlier and less feral at this point than the the two kittens in my shed. So why didn't I try to socialize those two (I can only have two cats in an apartment as small as mine) and give the two younger ones to a local foster for adoption by someone else? I guess because I thought the older ones would be harder to domesticate, and were already adjusted to outdoor life. I am second guessing that now though, and find myself wracked with guilt. How will the outdoors cats feel when they see these new kittens inside my apartment? Will they feel hurt or betrayed? I may be attributing too much human emotion to cats, but it does worry me. The mother of my shed kittens is still a frequent visitor and will probably see them through the window as well (she's getting TNR'd this week, hopefully). Not sure how she will react, either. 

The friendly outside kitties would probably hiss at the shed kitties, since cats rarely meet well.  But would they feel betrayed?  Perhaps only if you didn't respond to them the way you usually do, I guess.  I'm only speculating because there's no way to know, but I don't think they would feel betrayed.  

Ginny said:

 
The friendly outside kitties would probably hiss at the shed kitties, since cats rarely meet well.  But would they feel betrayed?  Perhaps only if you didn't respond to them the way you usually do, I guess.  I'm only speculating because there's no way to know, but I don't think they would feel betrayed.  

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They actually have kind of met before, since the shed kittens were outdoor kittens and interacted with the adults for a couple of weeks before I brought them in (but it didn't go well because the adults would hiss, hit and attempt to browbeat the kittens, especially at feeding time). In fact even the kittens' mother is only grudgingly tolerated by the others, who are mostly littermates.  I intend to continue to feed and love the outside kitties and provide them a warm shelter in winter as best I can, so I hope they don't feel too betrayed. I can't take them all in ... there are at least five other regulars that I consider "mine" and a couple of rarer visitors outside. I love them all but that's just too many! I only feel guilty that I should have tried to socialize my older ones and make them indoor kitties, instead of these new ones. But at the time, it didn't even seem like an option since they are almost a year old. 

I understand there.  At one point I was feeding 12 on my back porch and the neighbors nearby didn't like it one bit.  Why do there have to be people like that?  There's always a fly in the ointment, it seems.  You've done really well socializing them!  I also understand the money concerns.  One person can't do it all.  I wish those neighbors of mine had understood that and helped.  

I'm back with an update, and it's good and not-so-good news. First the good news: they kitties have successfully completed their vet visit. Vaccinations, neutering (they're both males after all!), the whole shebang. The trapping to get them to the vet was easier than I could have dreamed (and believe me, I was up most of the night before worried sick about how it would go); as I mentioned before, I got them used to being fed in the carrier, so they didn't bat an eyelid on the morning of the trip to the vet's when I put their food in the carriers, closed the door behind them and secured it. Turns out they had an awful flea infestation and got treated prior to surgery; they gave me some Revolution to take home but there's no way in the current situation I can possibly use it (more on that below).  They recovered pretty well from the surgery as expected.

Now the not-so-good news. Before the surgery, they wouldn't really let me pet them, but seemed to become somewhat comfortable in my presence. Unfortunately, the whole vet visit/surgery experience was as traumatic for them, and as much a setback socialization-wise, as I'd feared. We're almost back to square one. I'm talking regression to the hiding-behind-the-litterbox, not-eating-in-front-of-me state. Blackie's showing some sign of coming around, but Tabby is just as bad as the day I first caught him. I'm hoping things will improve but it's been several days.

I find myself on the horns of a terrible dilemma.  If this, my maiden attempt at socializing feral kittens fails, I am left with a couple of five month old kittens, who are nowhere near adoptable by me or anyone else, and who have lived in my shed for the better part of two months. What are my options? There are no experienced fosters available (and at their current age most fosters would probably not think it's worth the effort anymore), and I would never think of taking them to a shelter, where they will clearly not do well. I feel terrible even asking this, but I hope more experienced members can provide input: would they do well rejoining the colony after all this time? The outside ferals seem to all be doing well, I feed them and provide them fresh water regularly, have provided and will provide them shelter in the winter, and have been keeping up with TNR for new arrivals (and there have been a few, including a couple of new kittens). I would feel terribly guilty having to do so, since the whole idea was to "rescue" them, and I hope it doesn't come to that, but I want to be emotionally prepared and would appreciate any suggestions.  This is extremely stressful, I've been close to tears and losing sleep thinking about this. 

Just give them some more time.  As long as  you keep feeding them and talking to them, I think they will get over this. But they need more time.  Of course they take a step back during such a traumatic experience, but they will adjust.  Give yourself a break.  You did great getting them trapped and to the vet office for their neutering and shots!  

You will be surprised how much they calm down after the neutering,  Like Ginny said, give them a bit more time and you will see improvements.  Remember, they may never be lap cats - the cat in my avatar will only allow a ten-second head scratch once a month or so.  But he is happier and a lot healthier being inside.

You are doing the right thing by these cats.  I've forgotten if your original plan was to keep them yourself or find a home.  If you plan to find a home, make sure people know their origins and are familiar with feral behaviors.

If you plan to reintegrate them into the colony, try putting up a screen door at the shed.  This will give them all time to get reacquainted before actual contact.

Have you blinked at them? A blink is a feral's way of saying "We're chill, man.  No worries."  We ask Chester for "blinkies" and it is so heart warming when he responds.

Don't look directly at them - this is taken as a challenge.  Speak softly when you come into their space - just tell them about your day and ask them about theirs.  No sudden moves, no rushing around.  Everything slow and easy.  All this will help reassure them that you mean no harm.

They will get over this.  As Ginny said, give yourself a break.  We did absolutely everything wrong when we got Chester.  But he is a happy inside kitty, now.

Thanks very much for the emotional support, Ginny and Ondine. It really helps me get through this. I am pleased to say that in the few days since my last post, things have definitely been looking up.  They've both come around to almost the point where they were individually before the vet visit. According to the vet, they are now around 5 months old.

I keep reminding myself of the good things, namely, they are now used to being indoors (even if just the shed for now), they use the litterbox regularly, play with a wand toy I'm holding, and Blackie, at least, does not run away from me even if I crouch down next to him. Tabby is still very shy and won't come near me if he can help it, but does approach to eat what I put out in front of me.

The biggest problem area is the fact that I still can't handle them. Blackie will barely tolerate being petted when he eats (up to a point, but will then rather stop eating and move away rather than continue to allow to be touched) but Tabby will have none of it. I read that the best way to initiate non-feeding related petting is to put your hand on the ground, let the cat sniff it, then slowly raise your hand and approach from behind. My problem is that when I do that, Blackie raises his paw as if to scratch my hand, and by reflex , I pull my hand away, startling him. Plus I really don't want to be scratched!

But as I mentioned, they had a severe flea infestation per the vet (not surprising since they came straight in from outdoors). They received a single dose of a flea ointment at the vet's, and I was given Revolution to apply at home, but I can't do it since they won't let me touch them. Is a single dose enough to kill all the fleas? The vet was a little unclear on that. I still see them scratching themselves a lot. The shed has no carpet but they do have a cat tree and a soft rug they like to sleep on, and I did see a few dead fleas on those items (I didn't really look before but have examined them since I learned of the flea infestation).  Is there a way to kill the surviving fleas on these items? I obviously cannot move them into my apartment until I know their fleas have been treated adequately.

Also, my long-term goal is to adopt these kittens out, but the older they get and remain unhandleable, the unlikelier that becomes.

Baar Baar Jinx said:

 
Thanks very much for the emotional support, Ginny and Ondine. It really helps me get through this. I am pleased to say that in the few days since my last post, things have definitely been looking up.  They've both come around to almost the point where they were individually before the vet visit. According to the vet, they are now around 5 months old.

I keep reminding myself of the good things, namely, they are now used to being indoors (even if just the shed for now), they use the litterbox regularly, play with a wand toy I'm holding, and Blackie, at least, does not run away from me even if I crouch down next to him. Tabby is still very shy and won't come near me if he can help it, but does approach to eat what I put out in front of me.

The biggest problem area is the fact that I still can't handle them. Blackie will barely tolerate being petted when he eats (up to a point, but will then rather stop eating and move away rather than continue to allow to be touched) but Tabby will have none of it. I read that the best way to initiate non-feeding related petting is to put your hand on the ground, let the cat sniff it, then slowly raise your hand and approach from behind. My problem is that when I do that, Blackie raises his paw as if to scratch my hand, and by reflex , I pull my hand away, startling him. Plus I really don't want to be scratched!

But as I mentioned, they had a severe flea infestation per the vet (not surprising since they came straight in from outdoors). They received a single dose of a flea ointment at the vet's, and I was given Revolution to apply at home, but I can't do it since they won't let me touch them. Is a single dose enough to kill all the fleas? The vet was a little unclear on that. I still see them scratching themselves a lot. The shed has no carpet but they do have a cat tree and a soft rug they like to sleep on, and I did see a few dead fleas on those items (I didn't really look before but have examined them since I learned of the flea infestation).  Is there a way to kill the surviving fleas on these items? I obviously cannot move them into my apartment until I know their fleas have been treated adequately.

Also, my long-term goal is to adopt these kittens out, but the older they get and remain unhandleable, the unlikelier that becomes.

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Honestly, what you've got realistically is 2 new residents, due to their age.

Mentally they developed as ferals in their first 8+ weeks, so just starting the socialization process will not produce cats who will ever be outgoing socially,.

They will tame to you and/or your family living with you in time, but will forever act feral around strangers, and will hide if/when present.

There really isn't anything that can be done to remove this from them.

To be able to pet them, you can use their appetite/desire for some treat that they are crazy about, it means not free feeding them, and bringing them food in your hand and waiting for them to come to you for it.

They will resist this, no doubt, but offering it in your hand only, once they do take it, then allow to eat until full from a dish.

After doing this as what you require for mealtime which they will learn fast, for a few days, then advance it to the next step.

Offer the food in one hand, and then from the front, touch with your other hand.

They will pull away, that's fine, try again.

If no way, then leave, and return in an hour and repeat.

It's not torture either, it is not going to hurt them to be touched, and they need to learn this, waiting for them to figure it out will take much, much longer.

It is also a very good idea to spend time with them where you are laying on the floor at their level and eventually their kitten curiosity will take over and they will come to smell you.

Don't try petting them or anything, just relax and let them know you are no threat.

Feralism (haha if that's a word!) is just fear of the unknown/foreign presence, like how we would feel if we suddenly were in the care of a monster. But over time, that scary monster has fed us, and talked sweet to us, and we begin to let our guard down, well maybe this monster isn't going to hurt us after all. 

Black cats are in general more easier going and adaptable in cats.

Not sure why but true, they are the ones who do best in multicat homes, getting along fine with everyone. Not 100% of them, but in general, most black cats, which is why Blackie is easier.

Females/calicos/torties/Siamese are tougher cookies.

Simply wash the rug in hot and hot dryer to get rid of fleas/eggs on it.

For reapplying revolution, get a 1.0 ml needle-less syringe and draw the med in to it, don't have it showing in your hand or they will smell it too, but the syringe will allow you to squirt it on them at some point.

Just as a caution though, you might miss! lol 

I've had to do this with ferals plenty. Sometimes it takes several days to finally get a good shot, and that is all you will get too so hold out until you think it's just right and shoot it out fast.

I created this long shooter thingy once, using a syringe, a piece of aquarium air tubing, and taped that to a long stick for stiffness, so I didn't even have to be close to zap the flea meds on them! lol it worked!

I have also kept a cage open and on the ground for all of their feeding.

If I needed to flea treat, I would feed, once inside and eating just shut the door, if it was a cat where I couldn't get close enough to reach the door, and had to be out of the room for the feral to come and eat, then I rigged a string to it, run it through the cage and back out, testing the spot to run it through as giving me the fastest and best angle, then hold that string tightly and approach the cage, locking the door.

Over time they knew, no big deal, she's just gonna nail us with that stuff again

I know what you mean in regards to worrying about the adoption window. I also planned on fostering my ferals in the beginning because they were still kittens, but I ended up adopting them because I got too attached and the socialization progress didn't seem to occur fast enough with their age. I was afraid they'd be adopted and then rejected because they took so long to get comfortable with new people.

My ferals seemingly made exponential progress in bursts though, so yours might surprise you even if they don't adhere to the timeline you have in mind. They seem to be doing a lot better than how some of mine were doing at the same age, so keep faith! The indoor environment will especially speed their progress up. Keep trying to touch them as much as you can. They will probably be very scared and may believe that you are trying to harm them. They might flinch back, run away, or hiss. But with repeated interactions, they will realize that you've touched them X amount of times and they're still alive. Eventually they will begin working up to returning your touches.

As an example of the socialization"bursts": 2 months ago when I commented this thread, only one of my cats was very touch-needy, and all of them were fearful around strangers. Now 2 of them act like completely socialized cats - extremely affectionate + playful- and curious about interacting with/ playing with strangers. I just couldn't believe it. After several months of trying, they suddenly decided to open up to house guests that they had desperately avoided. The first cat used to be defensively aggressive to people aside from me as a kitten (hissing, growling, pouncing stance at one stage) and afterwards he was ambivalent. I couldn't get him within 100 feet of another person (and he's the touch-needy one!) The second cat, though the friendliest, wasn't among the two most forward cats and made all her touching progress from 10 months onwards. For months she would spring in the air as my hand approached. She's not food motivated, and all the pork and tuna in the world couldn't convince her to stay. Now she asks for rubs every hour, even from guests. I still can't wrap my head around it.

For the fleas, maybe oral medicine might work? I used a combination of Program Green (kills flea eggs and larvae) and Capstar (kills adult fleas) on my ferals when they couldn't be touched. I crushed up the Capstar and mixed it with Program Green in their wet food. The gravy seems to cover up the scent/taste of the medicine and they eat it without hesitation.

Also, *ditto catwoman on the coat color - personality correlation. Mine are different colors (black, orange striped tabby, grey ticked tabby, hazel blotched tabby), and it seemed par of the course that their personalities would be a mixed bag. Imagine my surprise when I came across a source about a possible coat-personality trait correlation: http://messybeast.com/colour-tempment.htm. It's like horoscopes and confirmation bias, to but my shock it all seems to fit. My black was also easiest to socialize.

Just thought I'd update everyone. I think we're continuing to make progress. Both kittens now let me pet them throughout the whole time they're eating, and don't flinch or run away.  Blackie may, occasionally, let me pet him during non-food related encounters as well, but he clearly still doesn't like it. Tabby is okay with being petted when he eats, but that's it. Both will play enthusiastically with a wand toy without much fear. They're well aware that I'm the one controlling the toy, and don't seem to be worried by that. Their bonding seems to be mainly with me at this point, as I notice that they still act pretty feral with other people (although I've been having a relative feed them on occasion and Blackie is beginning to warm up a bit to her; Tabby won't even come out of hiding for her, though). The whole socialization process has been going much slower than I anticipated, and unfortunately over the past few weeks my schedule has been such that I don't have as much time to spend with them as I used to, but I'm trying to interact with them as much as I can.

I am determined to remain positive and optimistic. And in that vein, a question for those who have independently fostered before, for when (not if!) the time comes that they are ready for adoption. How do you generally start the process of finding homes for your foster kittens? Are there specific agencies that one can contact? Also, how easy do you think it'd be to find homes for kittens who are between 6-12 months of age (they're really beautiful cats, but I realize they're not so little anymore)?

I can definitely relate to you. Takes a lot of patience to socialize a cat that is for sure. My two used-to-be-feral cats Kitty and Rusty are doing great. Still a little skittish but they allow some of my co-workers to approach and pet them. I found that socializing them is on a curve, a long curve at first that gets shorter and easier. As for bonding, both are still strongly bonded to me but they are slowly opening up to other people. I would guess they will always be strongly bonded to me seeing that I am their primary care giver.

Wish I could offer you assistance on adopting them out but I have only ever taken cats in. Kitty and Rusty will be living in the building I work at permanently, I am extremely fortunate the owners don't mind cats.

Please stay positive and optimistic it should pay out for you in the end. My vet admires me a lot, told me very few people do what you and I are doing.