Introductions questions...

Hello everyone!

My wife and I had two cats for several months, Momo and Mimi.   Momo--the seller says she is Persian/Himayalan but she doesn't have a flat face and there's almost no way to prove anything in this country--came first, about a month before we picked up Mimi (a so-called pure Persian Ragdoll??).  Not much in the way of proof, but unless I want an alley cat in this country, I have to pay for whatever they want to tell me.  I give this information in case there are hereditary traits that might be relevant.

Momo and Mimi "get along", I guess.  Sometimes they play with each other, but Mimi is always the violent aggressor.  Momo often growls at her during playtime.  Sometimes Mimi climbs on top of Momo to give her a bath, then starts biting her ears.  Mimi also demands attention from me (me!? why me? That's beside the point!) by sitting quite grandly and mewing at my feet.  She loves attention and when picked up or placed somewhere, she will stay there as long as she's getting attention.  Momo is more independent and--these days--only wants attention when she decides it's time, which is very rare.

So there's the brief history of our two kittens.  They're about 7-8 months old, now.  We decided to go out and pick up a male cat that was quite inexpensive.  Once again, no way to prove a type of breed but the suggestion is Persian/Siamese, though the "siamese" had way too much fur in my uneducated opinion.

We brought home our black cat last night/this morning and let him out.  Mimi hisses at him if they are in the same room, though she never makes any move towards him and he sits, staring at her until she finishes before he moves on to explore.   Momo, on the other hand, is curious.  In fact, when I took our new cat (Pot-Pot / Potty) into the 'cat room' for water, Momo followed us in at a distance and promptly laid herself next to the water and watched Potty drink.  They smelled each other a bit and that was pretty much it.  Whenever these two see each other, this is almost always their reaction.  Momo stretches out and Potty approaches, they investigate each other, touch noses, then Potty moves on.  However, after this interaction, Mimi will also hiss and growl at Momo.  For the first time, Mimi also hissed at me after I interacted with Potty.

Potty's exploration of our house comes in three forms.  One is sleep, as kittens do.   The others depend on if I am with him.  If I am not with him, he will cry loudly until I am within eyesight, then he will calm.  He actually has the same reaction to Momo, and this lets me leave the room, if necessary, without worry.  I haven't yet seen Mimi approach him when he cries, but with her violent attitude with Momo and her already aggressive behavior towards Potty, I'm not sure I want to leave them alone at all.

I don't really want to upset the dynamic of the house too much.  We love Mimi and Momo as they are and we love Potty as he is, as well, despite being the new kid.  These early behaviors exhibited by Momo and Mimi seem appropriate when taking their history into account, but I want to make sure that we don't do anything to really mess it up.  Are there any suggestions or tips?  I still give Momo and Mimi some attention, about the same as usual, and when Potty cries loudly I talk to him for a few minutes.  Our house is probably considered small to most people here on the forums but it has six distinct areas and we never close doors inside the house.

Are there any warning signs I should watch for?  It's been a very long time since dealing with introductions, since Momo and Mimi came so close together and they became "friends" pretty quickly.

Thanks for your time

Hi  It sounds like a lovely fur family the first question anyone will ask you is are they

fixed? especially your male?  It will make a difference on how they will interact.

Any pictures ?? we love to see shots I'm sure these are gorgeous kitties

Welcome to the site      Cute Original names

Thanks!  We love our kittens.  Actually, they are our babies because at the moment my wife is yet to become pregnant.

To be perfectly honest, I don't know.  Is there a way to tell if a cat is fixed?  I know Mimi is not, as she (I think) is in heat right now and she has experienced it once before.  Momo, I'm not sure.  She's typically a quiet cat, and I've never seen "the signs" of a cat in heat.  Is there some way to physically examine her and figure that out?  The same for our new male, we got very little information on him as the owner was in a rush to leave the country with her foreign partner.  The reason I went ahead with the male was because of the price...again, I have to pay for the claims unless I want to spend 6 months rent on a cat with papers.  It's just the unfortunate state of things.



Mimi is the gray cat and Momo is the other one.  The photo of Momo and the photo of Mimi on the floor is from December.  The photo of Mimi on our couch is from March.  I couldn't find a recent photo of Momo and she's currently awaiting us at my wife's father's house as we will be moving there tomorrow.

You need to keep your male cat 100% away from your females and they should be spayed/neutered as soon as possible.

Hormones make introductions far more difficult, but you also do not want them to start breeding indiscrimately. It's not healthy or safe.

They should also go to a vet for vaccines, deworming, general health check since they're new, etc.

They're all beautiful!

Thanks!  We took Momo and Mimi to the vet for deworming, but we haven't yet done vaccinations.  We had asked the vet about that when we got them dewormed but we were expecting a different price for vaccinations and didn't have the funds on the spot.  I had actually forgotten about that, since my memory was that we had gone to the vet.  Now I can urge my wife to go later in the week (we move tomorrow).

On the topic of fixing, I personally don't want to be fixed and if I 'fix' the cats without my wife's permission, I most certainly will become fixed myself.  Earlier in the week I paid to have a new wall installed in our future home in order to separate the males from the females, though, so I am doing my best to keep them all safe.  I suppose I could get away with fixing the male, so I will discuss that with her when she is in a good disposition for getting my way.  Is there anything else you can suggest that wouldn't bring myself to personal harm from an angry woman?    

Thanks

There are many reasons to spay and neuter your cats, all of which will make them happier and healthier. Is there a reason you don't want to spay and neuter?

For one, your cats will be able to live together in harmony. Females can get pregnant without going into heat, so they really can't be together at all until they are fixed.

Reproductive cancers are common in intact animals. Females are also very likely to get pyometria, which is fatal if not caught and treated.

Your cats will also be uncomfortable and hormonally driven at all times. This is physically and mentally uncomfortable. Also unpleasant for you. Intact males spray, are agressive, and their urine smells terrible. Intact females are loud and make sure you know how miserable they feel.

Personally I am fine with spaying Momo.  She's "my" cat in the sense that I picked her while my wife picked Mimi.  The main reason "against" fixing is that my wife really wants to have some kittens.  Actually, as I have mentioned, it's hard to find cats less than $100 USD unless they are street cats and many people have commented that they wish they could afford the cost.  My wife's father wants a litter, my wife's mother wants a litter... I don't mind helping people have a "breed" of cat that is not a street cat.

I feel like you've reasonably convinced me to at least try to fix the male cat, though.  If my wife is really that  eager to provide low-cost, domesticated kittens to relatives, we can get a service?    That's really the thing, in the US there are too many beautiful strays of varying hybrid genetics but here in the Philippines there's really just one kind of street cat and no others.  My mom, back home in the USA, ended up with a beautiful doll-faced longhaired stray, but that's impossible here.  Want a long haired cat?  Pony up $100 USD.    Really, I guess this is why I half-accept my wife's wishes, because there is zero access to the cats people want.  At the same time, I am leery of the whole thing because most people here don't really know how to treat animals at all, let alone cats.  Pets are for the rich or lucky.  At any rate, after the last post I did check to see if there were quality services nearby and it looks like the closest option for us is a 6 hour round trip. It's not expensive, but it's far and our transportation is in horrible smog through the heart of Manila.  I'm sure there are closer services, but the quality of those services can be suspect.  What are the chances of a poorly done surgery and what are the health consequences?   In my case, I'm fine with it, but there is going to be that struggle in my mind that we might end up taking our cats to someone who cheated through school and is watching a YouTube 'how to' in order to perform the operation.   This is my  issue with it, not my wife's.  Just this moment my wife walked by and I asked her about fixing Mimi and she made the crying whine sound.  She just wants babies.

Again, cats in this country seem to be for the rich only.

neiana said:

 
Personally I am fine with spaying Momo.  She's "my" cat in the sense that I picked her while my wife picked Mimi.  The main reason "against" fixing is that my wife really wants to have some kittens.  Actually, as I have mentioned, it's hard to find cats less than $100 USD unless they are street cats and many people have commented that they wish they could afford the cost.  My wife's father wants a litter, my wife's mother wants a litter... I don't mind helping people have a "breed" of cat that is not a street cat.

I feel like you've reasonably convinced me to at least try to fix the male cat, though.  If my wife is really that  eager to provide low-cost, domesticated kittens to relatives, we can get a service?    That's really the thing, in the US there are too many beautiful strays of varying hybrid genetics but here in the Philippines there's really just one kind of street cat and no others.  My mom, back home in the USA, ended up with a beautiful doll-faced longhaired stray, but that's impossible here.  Want a long haired cat?  Pony up $100 USD.    Really, I guess this is why I half-accept my wife's wishes, because there is zero access to the cats people want.  At the same time, I am leery of the whole thing because most people here don't really know how to treat animals at all, let alone cats.  Pets are for the rich or lucky.  At any rate, after the last post I did check to see if there were quality services nearby and it looks like the closest option for us is a 6 hour round trip. It's not expensive, but it's far and our transportation is in horrible smog through the heart of Manila.  I'm sure there are closer services, but the quality of those services can be suspect.  What are the chances of a poorly done surgery and what are the health consequences?   In my case, I'm fine with it, but there is going to be that struggle in my mind that we might end up taking our cats to someone who cheated through school and is watching a YouTube 'how to' in order to perform the operation.   This is my  issue with it, not my wife's.  Just this moment my wife walked by and I asked her about fixing Mimi and she made the crying whine sound.  She just wants babies.

Again, cats in this country seem to be for the rich only.

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So, I think there are a few issues with this plan.  

The biggest one is that it sounds dangerous for all involved.  You don't feel that you have close access to veterinary care.  Pregnancy is a large risk for your cats.  In the last week alone I have read several threads about kittens being stuck in the birth canal where emergency surgery was needed to save the mother.  It is risky to mate your cats.  It is also risky to leave them unspayed, and doing so will likely result in an urgent medical situation.  All of these options, including raising healthy kittens, are very expensive. 

It is also risky because you don't actually have a medical history for your cats, and it doesn't sound as if they are pedigree.  Ideally, only the healthiest animals are bred in order to pass down the best genes.  In this case, there could be major defects that you don't know about.

These are your babies.  I know you want others to enjoy cats, and I love that more people want cats.  That said, there is nothing wrong with the less attractive cats on the street.  I'm sure you could find a pregnant mom in need and you could help her and her babies.  Fostering is wonderful.

Attempting to live with intact animals is not wise.  As mentioned, it's so unpleasant for you and them. There is likely to be an accident.  I don't like the idea of your animals and your family being kept perpetually uncomfortable just so kittens might be an option at some point.  it is not a sustainable situation, especially in a new house that will soon be covered in pee!

talkingpeanut said:

 
So, I think there are a few issues with this plan.  

The biggest one is that it sounds dangerous for all involved.  You don't feel that you have close access to veterinary care.  Pregnancy is a large risk for your cats.  In the last week alone I have read several threads about kittens being stuck in the birth canal where emergency surgery was needed to save the mother.  It is risky to mate your cats.  It is also risky to leave them unspayed, and doing so will likely result in an urgent medical situation.  All of these options, including raising healthy kittens, are very expensive. 

It is also risky because you don't actually have a medical history for your cats, and it doesn't sound as if they are pedigree.  Ideally, only the healthiest animals are bred in order to pass down the best genes.  In this case, there could be major defects that you don't know about.

These are your babies.  I know you want others to enjoy cats, and I love that more people want cats.  That said, there is nothing wrong with the less attractive cats on the street.  I'm sure you could find a pregnant mom in need and you could help her and her babies.  Fostering is wonderful.

Attempting to live with intact animals is not wise.  As mentioned, it's so unpleasant for you and them. There is likely to be an accident.  I don't like the idea of your animals and your family being kept perpetually uncomfortable just so kittens might be an option at some point.  it is not a sustainable situation, especially in a new house that will soon be covered in pee!

Click to expand...

Whelp, I do what I can with what I have, and what I have is a culture of "we want kittens!"  Actually, we have the two females because I argued for weeks against getting a male so I finally coughed up the $$ to buy a second female to keep my wife happy.  Regarding picking up a stray, the whole of our strays are relatives of the Oriental breed and nothing else.  I actually found a beautiful one last year, but we had no plans for taking care of it at that time, so we really couldn't take it in good conscience.  Just this evening I saw a beautiful light orange cat with the lovely large ears.  She, or he, was trying to eat our table scraps.  We actually had our cage with us and I almost  brought him/her home.  Poor thing was injured, or at least had some kind of nasty stuff.   I actually feel bad about not bringing it home, now.  The thing about sharing kittens here, is that nobody wants the street cats because if they wanted one, they could literally walk outside and pick one up.  I've come across several blogs that discuss how these cats are just as loving and can be just as beautiful and they are free!  But culture of the mind is a hard thing to challenge anywhere in the world.

We do have close access to some  vet care.  It's just that in this country, certain things are less available due to the cat culture.  I tried a different Google search and found a few vet services much closer, but I am not yet sure what they offer.  With our move tomorrow, we will be too busy to check but I think I can convince my wife (or at least her brother) to help me find out if there is a decent place nearby.

What I will do, is see if we can find a vet nearby that provides services we need according to what you recommend.  If we can't, I will continue to urge my wife against the breeding.    She has at least relented somewhat, and has agreed to go with me in search of good  services, since I used your comment (and my own mother's personal history, as I was present when one of her strays nearly died giving birth) to appeal to her love for Mimi.  Momo will get fixed no matter what.  The new male cat is actually a gift for her brother and I will try to convince him, as well.  For male cats, when do you suggest the operation?  Pot-Pot still has the baby bulging eyes and the way he walks reminds me of a cat not yet 100% sure footed, though I did find him climbing atop a 4 foot cage.

If you don't mind, is there a way to keep communication with you through our search for a good vet?  I appreciate all of your comments and I am taking them to heart.  I love my cats.  At the very least we can fix all members of our cat family with the exception of Mimi, if we can find reputable services that meet her necessities.  I want to be responsible with our cats while at the same time keeping my wife pleased.

side note and maybe TMI but is probably a very serious thing to consider when I talk to my wife:  we may be unable to have children  so having kitten babies is possibly  her only way of being a mother.  I think that's one of her strongest threads to keeping Mimi unaltered.

Thanks again for all of your comments and time.

neiana said:

Whelp, I do what I can with what I have, and what I have is a culture of "we want kittens!"  Actually, we have the two females because I argued for weeks against getting a male so I finally coughed up the $$ to buy a second female to keep my wife happy.  Regarding picking up a stray, the whole of our strays are relatives of the Oriental breed and nothing else.  I actually found a beautiful one last year, but we had no plans for taking care of it at that time, so we really couldn't take it in good conscience.  Just this evening I saw a beautiful light orange cat with the lovely large ears.  She, or he, was trying to eat our table scraps.  We actually had our cage with us and I almost brought him/her home.  Poor thing was injured, or at least had some kind of nasty stuff.   I actually feel bad about not bringing it home, now.  The thing about sharing kittens here, is that nobody wants the street cats because if they wanted one, they could literally walk outside and pick one up.  I've come across several blogs that discuss how these cats are just as loving and can be just as beautiful and they are free!  But culture of the mind is a hard thing to challenge anywhere in the world.

We do have close access to some vet care.  It's just that in this country, certain things are less available due to the cat culture.  I tried a different Google search and found a few vet services much closer, but I am not yet sure what they offer.  With our move tomorrow, we will be too busy to check but I think I can convince my wife (or at least her brother) to help me find out if there is a decent place nearby.

What I will do, is see if we can find a vet nearby that provides services we need according to what you recommend.  If we can't, I will continue to urge my wife against the breeding.    She has at least relented somewhat, and has agreed to go with me in search of good services, since I used your comment (and my own mother's personal history, as I was present when one of her strays nearly died giving birth) to appeal to her love for Mimi.  Momo will get fixed no matter what.  The new male cat is actually a gift for her brother and I will try to convince him, as well.  For male cats, when do you suggest the operation?  Pot-Pot still has the baby bulging eyes and the way he walks reminds me of a cat not yet 100% sure footed, though I did find him climbing atop a 4 foot cage.

If you don't mind, is there a way to keep communication with you through our search for a good vet?  I appreciate all of your comments and I am taking them to heart.  I love my cats.  At the very least we can fix all members of our cat family with the exception of Mimi, if we can find reputable services that meet her necessities.  I want to be responsible with our cats while at the same time keeping my wife pleased.

side note and maybe TMI but is probably a very serious thing to consider when I talk to my wife:  we may be unable to have children so having kitten babies is possibly her only way of being a mother.  I think that's one of her strongest threads to keeping Mimi unaltered.

Thanks again for all of your comments and time.

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Absolutely. I will write back later when I am back at my computer.

neiana said:

 
Whelp, I do what I can with what I have, and what I have is a culture of "we want kittens!"  Actually, we have the two females because I argued for weeks against getting a male so I finally coughed up the $$ to buy a second female to keep my wife happy.  Regarding picking up a stray, the whole of our strays are relatives of the Oriental breed and nothing else.  I actually found a beautiful one last year, but we had no plans for taking care of it at that time, so we really couldn't take it in good conscience.  Just this evening I saw a beautiful light orange cat with the lovely large ears.  She, or he, was trying to eat our table scraps.  We actually had our cage with us and I almost  brought him/her home.  Poor thing was injured, or at least had some kind of nasty stuff.   I actually feel bad about not bringing it home, now.  The thing about sharing kittens here, is that nobody wants the street cats because if they wanted one, they could literally walk outside and pick one up.  I've come across several blogs that discuss how these cats are just as loving and can be just as beautiful and they are free!  But culture of the mind is a hard thing to challenge anywhere in the world.

We do have close access to some  vet care.  It's just that in this country, certain things are less available due to the cat culture.  I tried a different Google search and found a few vet services much closer, but I am not yet sure what they offer.  With our move tomorrow, we will be too busy to check but I think I can convince my wife (or at least her brother) to help me find out if there is a decent place nearby.

What I will do, is see if we can find a vet nearby that provides services we need according to what you recommend.  If we can't, I will continue to urge my wife against the breeding.    She has at least relented somewhat, and has agreed to go with me in search of good  services, since I used your comment (and my own mother's personal history, as I was present when one of her strays nearly died giving birth) to appeal to her love for Mimi.  Momo will get fixed no matter what.  The new male cat is actually a gift for her brother and I will try to convince him, as well.  For male cats, when do you suggest the operation?  Pot-Pot still has the baby bulging eyes and the way he walks reminds me of a cat not yet 100% sure footed, though I did find him climbing atop a 4 foot cage.

If you don't mind, is there a way to keep communication with you through our search for a good vet?  I appreciate all of your comments and I am taking them to heart.  I love my cats.  At the very least we can fix all members of our cat family with the exception of Mimi, if we can find reputable services that meet her necessities.  I want to be responsible with our cats while at the same time keeping my wife pleased.

side note and maybe TMI but is probably a very serious thing to consider when I talk to my wife:  we may be unable to have children  so having kitten babies is possibly  her only way of being a mother.  I think that's one of her strongest threads to keeping Mimi unaltered.

Thanks again for all of your comments and time.

Click to expand...

I really, really think you should reconsider and take in a pregnant stray.  It sounds like there are many in need of a little care and love, and how amazing that you get to save so many lives while experiencing kittens!  You also get the benefit of letting your cats just be... cats.  They can be your pets and your babies.  I'm sure that your family members who want a kitten would fall in love with a street cat too if they saw their personalities from birth.  They would be animals, not just disposable things.

I would not subject my cat to any risk personally, but I would especially not do so if her medical history were unknown and there was not excellent vet care nearby.  It's too big of a risk.  I would make the trip one time for the spay/neuters and be done with needing extensive care.  I think it's too much of a risk even with excellent care in your case, because you already have three cats that you love.  You don't need to produce more for others...

Males and females should be fixed between 2-4 months old.  Ideally you want to do the procedure before sexual responses kick in.

I'm sorry to hear that you might not have kids if that's what you want, and I see why your wife is identifying with the cat.  My advice is to help a mom or moms in need, enjoy them and their babies, and let your cats be your babies as they are without risking their health or contributing to overpopulation.  It doesn't sound like anyone else would take care of your baby's babies like you would, which is another thing to consider.  It's also important to note that your cat has no desire to be a mother or raise children; cats don't think of the future or long in any way.

Please do keep in touch.  I should get a notification if you post on this thread, but you can also private message if you'd like.  I wish you all the best.

Thank you so much for all the advice!  I will send a PM now.