Cat bites me

My Tabby is 5.5 year old and is with me since he was 8.5 weeks. He is entire we did not desex him and his brother. Tabby is territorial so he cant go anywhere near his brother Snowy. Snowy only fights in self defence. He isnt territorial and doesnt mark. Tabby does occasionally when a stray we befriended comes next to our door spray around the area closest to the wall where the stray Jack eats
Tabby has taken to biting me anytime i am in bed. This happened before we befriended the stray. He occasionally bites other family members but i am the one he bites most often. He bites hard but doesnt draw blood. He comes, lies on my chest, staring unblinking into my face, then bites my nose if i dont move him. If i do try to remove him by pushing him away he would still try to bite my face or grabs and bites my hand. He also slapped my face when i tried to move him away once. I dont understand why he does it. Any ideas? The cat outside Jack is living in the apartment complex for a few years but he became stray when his owner suddenly passed away. Sometimes Jack used to come to our level and look into windows by jumping on the window sills. I dont think however that Tabby biting has anything to do with Jack

I think neutering your cats would make a world of difference. Intact toms are agressive by nature - all they want to do is defend their territory and mate. It can turn deadly very quickly to have two intact toms. Truly deadly.

Also, they are frustrated all the time because of their hormones. Neutering will make them happier, healthier, and able to live together in peace.

We dont let them anywhere near each other. Our cats have allergies to several medicines and both of them (litter brothers) nearly died because of reactions to meds. I know one of them is ok anaesthetics but unsure about the other. We were just really worried about the surgery plus where i come from in Europe animals used to be neutered only legally for health problems. It was illegal to neuter animals for making them less aggressive etc. it was considered normal. I have no idea if it is different nowadays but i am not supportive of neuter policies many countries have. I live in Australia and here we constantly get told that we need to neuter. So its just one view it doesnt mean that we have to go by the common policies. We would neuter the female though as it gets more complicated.
I dont think he bites me due to hormones. Snowy doesnt bite anyone and he isnt desexed.
Hormones lead to survival eg immune system, physical strength etc. sure it would stop some of natural bhaviours and they wont produce offspring but there is no proof that neutering will stop aggression- i know maybe 4-5 cats who are neutered when they were a few months to 6 months old- they are really territorial toms and fight just as bad

So, my first question is why you would want to have two cats that can't interact with one another at all.  Neutering could make it so that they coexist peacefully and happily.  Surely it is stressful to be aware of another tom cat in their own house.

Because neutering is such a minor procedure, I'm sure that you could talk to the vet about anesthesia options.  There may be a safer, lighter anesthesia.

Why do you feel that the policies are wrong?  Feral cats are a huge problem, and a huge part of the push for spaying and neutering.  Other reasons are so that cats can live calmer, happier lives together.  It does drastically cut down on aggression and the drive to escape, mate, and fight.  It also removes a serious risk of cancer, so I do think it is for the health of all involved as well.

It sounds to me that your cat is biting because he is defending his territory and feeling aggressive, which is driven by hormones.  Not all cats are the same, and it sounds like Snowy is more submissive.

Your cats are fully grown.  Their immune systems and bodies are fully developed.  Neutering at this point would not negatively impact them.  The other cases you are citing could have a variety of reasons behind them, like improper introductions, stray cats that are upsetting them, poor socialization, or their personalities.  

When we got the cats they didnt fight they were 8 weeks old and started to fight at around 2 years old.
We know a few people where cats can live together.
Desexing doesnt always help cats live together- there are situations where one of the cats attacks the other cat and they are both desexed. I know also of people who do have two desexed males and they are ok together and best friends. My vet did push desexing on us but they said there is no guarantee it will make them happy together.
So there is no reason to desex. The country i came from it was no desexing i think for dogs unsure about cats.
In their more than 5 years with us they never escaped and there is no reason to think they will. They dont get a chance to impregnate another cat or kill birds
There are some benefits of desexing but the governments who made the policy due to stray and feral populations (it did work in that sense to minimise them) push desexing onto vets and vets do it to people.
I was told it is good for the animal and makes it calmer.
But removing the hormones that make them calmer removes other natural things. So the cats usually get fatter, most of intact cats are thinner. The hormones also are responsible for other bodily functions like immunity and metabolism - this isnt just in developing kittens its the same for adults as well. For example if a human is "desexed" they are given some medicines to counterract effects. There are some negatives in desexing and i felt it is dangerous to do it.
Given enough incentive i guess we would do it but i havent found on the balance that it will be right.

Your cats started fighting when they reached full sexual maturity.  I'm glad they are kept inside, but I do really believe that they would be happier without these hormones driving them, and that they would be able to live together instead of isolated.  I also really believe that this is the reason for Tabby's behavioral issues.

Cats do not get fatter if they are fed an appropriate diet and exercised.

I'm hoping that @Red Top Rescue  and @catwoman707  can weigh in. 

If my cat is defending his territory would he do it to human?
He does it a bit aggresively and i hate the bites but unsure as to the reason. He is a territorial domineering type even though he is small in comparison to Snowy who weighs 5 kg and is a long cat. Tabby is much shorter and 1/2 kg or more lighter. Their mother is Oriental and gentle like Snowy. Snowy looks a lot like her and acts the same way- he is a really loud vocal cat who is scared of people coming to the door or windows. Tabby is not as scared and bumps them. He often bumps people at home and neighbours. He likes a lot of attention.
He does look domineering when he bites me so there is some of that there. He never drew blood but does leave marks for days. One puncture even though didnt bleed it broke part of skin that got infected and i had to take antibiotics. I noticed biting seems demanding- if he wants to eat or if he wants to play. At times i got no idea what it means maybe he is asserting his dominance. He is tabby and white splotches pattern and doesnt look much Oriental. Maybe he inherited some nasty genes from his tabby father. .

I have honestly never heard of neutering being illegal before anywhere in Europe for any reason. But since you no longer live there this really has no affect on your decision to neuter or not. Neutering is a very safe procedure and while I have heard of rare complications, if your cats are in good health these risks are even rarer. It is very hard to live with unneutered male cats, especially two of them. It's hard to imagine that they wouldn't get along better after being neutered, unneutered males are can be very territorial and get into lots of fights. They can also be aggressive towards humans. Dominant behavior is very common in intact males.

I believe his aggression towards you is partly related to the stray you are seeing. It is redirected agression. This is also likely related to your other cat being a constant, threatening presence.

He is also displaying dominance, which is hormonal, as you have noticed. Cat bites are very serious. I hope you can address the issue.

It was illegal in the past to desex dogs in some countries. I come from Ukraine long time ago and we had an entire dog who was also fox terrier who was used a few times as stud dog when he was younger so thats different. From memory dogs only were desexed for health. There are other countries eg Norway.
I have lived for 11 years since age 5 with that dog and generally used to having undesexed animal around.
While undesexed males of any species do fight, so do the desexed males, to a lesser degree maybe, but they still do fight.
Testicular cancer is rare in cats so shouldnt be the reason to desex them.
Im not sure they think of each other as much threatening as they dont get to see each other much at all. They are living separare lives in different part of the apartment. Sometimes they try to bite each others paws half heartdely from under the door- so one cat lures the other by placing the paw under the door so that the other can see it and attack. They look almost playing which really isnt the case. This way they havent cause each other injuries. Initially they were stressed when we just separated them and its been several years and they calmed down. At times one of the cats did run out. They look at each other in surprise but my cat backed out or away fast as he remembers getting a beating from bigger Snowy from before. So their lives are relatively calm.
Tabby used to bite me like this for a while, months before Jack started to regularly eat outside the windows close to Tabbys room.

I can't even begin to imagine ever getting used to have intact male cats, or any intact pets in my home, the marking, the yowling, the fighting, the aggressive behavior, oh my gosh if this were me and I was getting bitten by an aggressive unfixed male cat, his butt would be down to the vets office for neutering immediately.

The older a male cat is when they get neutered, the more his aggressive ways have become his way of life.

I would not expect him to become a calm lap cat after neutering, but he certainly won't be so aggitated when his racing hormones aren't ruling his thinking and actions.

Just get him neutered, at LEAST him! Both should be done, why wouldn't you?

There are alternative medications to do the procedure, which is so fast and simple.

For some reason people tend to believe that neutering sorts all problems. Of course intact males are more aggressive but they dont howl etc or spray all the time. Snowy doesnt spray AT ALL. He has never sprayed anything in his life. He also doesnt attack. He is intact.
Tabby is intact and he does.
There is no guarantee that neutering will sort all of these issues out and not add other issues.
Ive lived with an intact fox terrier dog and he was relatively ok but did fight other dogs and caught rats and chased cats. But its also the breed because all foxterriers are a bit crazy.
Like i said before only Tabby does the marking occasionally and the fighting. Snowy doesnt do any of it and only fights in defence

Tabby is the dominant one, thus he does the marking and the fighting.  I think what he is doing with you is asserting his dominance, and if you don't counter it with your own dominance, he will continue to do it because there are no negative consequences.  Cats do this in their own society.  Once the social order is set, it will  stay stable for awhile but then one of the lower cats on the totem pole will try to move up by challenging others near their level.  I see this every day in my small shelter society, and both the girls and the boys do it, and every one of them is desexed.  Considering how skunky adult male cat urine smells, I can't imagine living with two whole males in the same house.  I have two that come and eat on the porch, I believe they are father and son, and they have had brawls from time to time.  Now they have worked it out that one comes in the morning and the other c omes at night.  It is clear that the son is now the dominant cat.  He is bigger and stronger and all the other cats defer to him now.

I do think that both you and your cats would be a lot happier if you did desex them.  They will still be strong boys but they won't smell as strong!  They will be calmer, but their same personalities will hold true overall.  BTW an example of shifting positions is happening in my  house this year.  Alabama (the cat in my profile picture) was always the pariah cat, the one everyone else picked on, but since I took in Sweetness, a young adult female who was dumped at a church, the two of them have bonded and when some of the others would pick on him, she would come to the rescue and start kicking butt.  Now she is stalking the gentlest tortie of the three tortie girls here (who rule the roost, no surprise), and Alabama is taking on the two orange boys who bullied him unmercifully for the past year.  Whether having Sweetness as a protector gave Alabama his confidence I don't know, but he is not the same cat he was last year.  It's interesting to see the power structure shift in a rescue situation that is fairly static lately.   

Anni7 said:

For some reason people tend to believe that neutering sorts all problems. Of course intact males are more aggressive but they dont howl etc or spray all the time. Snowy doesnt spray AT ALL. He has never sprayed anything in his life. He also doesnt attack. He is intact.
Tabby is intact and he does.
There is no guarantee that neutering will sort all of these issues out and not add other issues.
Ive lived with an intact fox terrier dog and he was relatively ok but did fight other dogs and caught rats and chased cats. But its also the breed because all foxterriers are a bit crazy.
Like i said before only Tabby does the marking occasionally and the fighting. Snowy doesnt do any of it and only fights in defence

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I'm certainly not saying neutering sorts all problems, in fact if I remember right, I said at this later age, getting neutered won't turn an aggressive cat in to a lap cat, that they have grown used to the way they've lived.

But I most definitely do feel that neutering will cause him to lose a good deal of his aggression causing his biting, he is showing you he's boss and letting you know what he wants by hurting you, no, that shouldn't be okay.

Why are you so against neutering? All it can do is help.

Agree about Snowy being non aggressive, that is because Tabby is the boss cat, and Snowy will not challenge him at all, but take away Tabby and he will show dominance.

Thanks @Red Top Rescue

Im against neutering healthy male animals because it causes some health problems. With females its more difficult because they attract lots of males. I never had female dogs or cats so can't tell.
Our cats are healthy and Tabbys aggression maybe caused by hormones but not all hormones come from the testes. There are other variables. It could be also just his temperament. Like any animal some are timid, some are boisterous, some are placid etc. same with people.
Why change something ie remove their organs if they are well?
Ive known a few desexed cats of both genders who got fatter after neutering. It is the food intake only in part it slows their metabolism
But also neutered animals arent as fun - the ones i knew the intact had more energy and were more playful (and more aggressive at times and naughty). But they are lively and i think its cruel to cut their organs off for our convenience.
It may sort aggression but it isnt guarantee even the vets said there is no guarantee. And neutering before 6 months and even after 6 months can and does alter their physical development and in some cats things like less muscle mass, more weight, different bone structures, height, and urinary health in male cats can be altered

He is showing he is boss for sure. I didnt know how to show him that i am the boss. Also he started it last year when he was 4 and before that he didnt bite me.
At 2-2.5 he got rid of his brother first from lying on me or the bed. They both used me as a mattress especially when cold. I didnt mind it as they kept me warm too. The he got rid of him from the whole bedroom where i slept, then he decided that he is the cat of the house and tried to get rid of Snowy altogether. At this point Snowy fought back and a few times either caused injuries or nearly killed Tabby. My partner got a deep puncture wound that went to the bone from separating them from Tabby but he saved his life.
He also lived on farms and in rural areas in Australia and his exs family bred pedigree Chinchilla cats. Hes been bitten by cats all his life and just got antibiotics and a tetanus shot.
This experience was 3 years ago. Nowadays we have the cats managed and soon will be moving to a bigger place together where we have more room.
Cats still can be aggressive and unpredictable desexed or not. It can solve aggression if desexed early but no guarantee. One of the vets in the practice has a cat that bites him with deep punctures when he doesnt want to be given his meds or flea treatment . He is healthy overall and was desexed early and well socialised cat.

We now know for sure that the stray we adopted is neutered male cat Jack- his is about 3 year old male cat. He was our late neighbours cat. He is a very territorial cat that often has bitten ears and scratched nose. He fights all the male cats around "his" home. We try to keep him inside but he is not used to our place (plus we are in a two bedroom unit with two cats that have to be separate AND they and Jack dont want each other either). So we cant have him inside at all times and he doesnt trust the closed door either. So this cat was neutered for sure and he is an aggressive territorial cat

Anni7 said:

We now know for sure that the stray we adopted is neutered male cat Jack- his is about 3 year old male cat. He was our late neighbours cat. He is a very territorial cat that often has bitten ears and scratched nose. He fights all the male cats around "his" home. We try to keep him inside but he is not used to our place (plus we are in a two bedroom unit with two cats that have to be separate AND they and Jack dont want each other either). So we cant have him inside at all times and he doesnt trust the closed door either. So this cat was neutered for sure and he is an aggressive territorial cat

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He is probably reacting to the two intact males. Would you be able to find another home for him?

No he never fights with our cats at all - he never sees them as we keep them away. This cat lives for the most part outside and only trusts my partner to pat him. It is impossible at this stage to rehome him as he is frightened easily, so we have to still work on him for a while
He maybe reacting to the intact ? Or not intact as well cats outside and is engaged in territorial fights and always ie every day sprays his territory

We just learned from Jacks late owners friend that Jack was desexed early on as a kitten. So here is a piece of evidence that early desexed males arent territorial and dont fight. He is very much the opposite- he even sprays inside our place when he comes to eat. He does the same outside i dont know if the cats that also live around the area are desexed or not. I noticed that Jack roams all around and goes to neighbouring street where he gets into fights with the cats living there. So he does roam, fight and spray.