Semi Feral meets pampered Queen

mak2024

TCS Member
Thread starter
Kitten
Joined
Apr 14, 2016
Messages
9
Purraise
1
Hello, my first time posting, really glad to have found this site. Bit of a long post here but I should give the whole story. Thanks for reading. My fiancée and I brought home a rescue 3 weeks ago, a 13 month old male named Odin who had been fostered for a little over 2 months. When he was found and taken from where he had been living on the streets, a site where a pack of ferals gather, he had mange badly, was quite undernourished and apparently was being bullied by the other cats to the point where they weren't allowing him to get to the food source (placed out for them regularly by 2 humane society-trained cat rescuers). His foster mom did a great job with him and his health rebounded significantly. He was however confined to her bathroom for the majority of his foster/recuperation time as he had to be isolated from her other cats due to the mange. He had a series of 3 injections over the course of about a month to cure it. When we visited him the first and only time we met him he was really sweet. Purring, sitting on our laps, letting us pet him and it only took a few moments of being in his small bathroom before he warmed up to us. We spent about 45 minutes with him. His foster mom mentioned she felt that he may have been somebody's pet who abandoned him or he may have gotten lost because he seemed so "non-feral." We've wanted a second cat for a while and we felt he would be a great cat to introduce to our current cat. We didn't see him again until the day we took him home but we continued to get reports on his playfulness and his physical improvement. We brought him home to gradually introduce him to our current cat, a 10 year old female who is affectionate, playful, healthy and had lived with other cats before but not for about 5 years. We knew it was of course going to be a process but we felt ready. We had a rag with Odin's scent on it for Nola to sniff a couple days before we brought him home. Then we brought him home and kept him in a spare bedroom for about 3 days with the 2 of them smelling each other through the door and our 10 year old female Nola being the aggressor. Eventually after about 3.5 days we cracked the door for them to see each other for about a minute and they kept their distance. With each additional door cracking they got closer and Nola was appropriately aggressive while Odin seemed submissive and just wanted to play. It seemed to be going well and as expected. We graduated to letting Odin walk around our small house a few times about 30 to 40 minutes each to get the lay of the land while Nola was in the back yard and could not see him out and about. Then on day 5 we let him out into our living room a number of times with Nola at the other side of the room while one of us gently "corralled" her and made sure she didn't charge him. She was aggressive but we contained her. He was submissive, cautious and seemed like he wanted to just play and be friends. After this we were then able to stand near them and keep an eye on things without touching her and this led to some relatively peaceful tolerance. Eventually they touched noses a few times. We were feeling very excited and optimistic. Now the tables have turned. I realize this is a process that could take months to iron out but things seem to be settling toward some unfortunate patterns that have been a challenge over the past few days. Odin now has full household freedom, no more staying in his room. Odin is becoming the dominant one. Nola still hisses at him and seems to have some assertiveness left in her but as soon as she moves to take a step or 2 away from him, he rushes her. Then she runs, which is of course a bad move, and he chases her. Mainly though, for the past few days she has only come out from under our bed if he isn't in the immediate area and we coax her out. Then as soon as she sees him, unless we give him a squirt from a spray bottle so he'll layoff, she runs back under the bed. She's been eating sparingly and all her funny, lovable little routines she had and places she liked in the house have for now all gone away not to mention the fact that it's been heartbreaking to see her like this. Based on our first introduction to him, we felt as if we weren't at all getting a feral but now he's like a totally different cat. Leading up to our bringing him home, we were simply researching how to introduce 2 cats (my fiancée has had many cats and already had a good deal of experience with this). Now that he seems to be getting more wild as he's settling in, it's prompted me to look up some feral info and I've seen a number of arguments against trying to bring home a cat like this let alone introduce him to a current cat. Anyways, thanks for reading this and any suggestions will help.
 

calicosrspecial

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Mar 14, 2016
Messages
4,428
Purraise
2,542
mak2024,

It is a process. I will say that I have gone through something very similar many years ago. I brought home 2 ferals and introduced them to the existing indoor cat (that was 9 at the time) and the male feral bullied her until we got her to stand her ground. It did turn out well.

Odin is now confident, taking ownership. Now I would love to know if his behavior is more play or more aggressive. What does he do when Nola turns and runs? Does he really chase after her or does her stop fairly quickly? You are right, running indicates being prey and that is not good. Nola needs to hold her ground.

Is there a certain area that these chases happen?  

Has Odin chased her under the bed? Have there been any fights or just the chases?

Nola needs to get her confidence back. Does she respond to toys? I think she needs to feel safe but not under the bed. Can your fiancee play with Odin (if he responds to toys) in another room while you play and give treats to Nola in the other room? Do you have cat trees? Can Nola go up high and survey the area that Odin is playing in? Nola needs to feel like she owns the place again (of course with Odin).

Can Nola be held? Can she be in the room in your arms on a chair or couch when Odin is playing? Can you give her treats when she is sees Odin? I tried to make sure my female could be around my male with the male focusing on something else. When she felt like he wasn't going to do anything then the confidence went up.

You are doing all the right things. I am guessing he wants to play with Nola and Nola being older is just a bit uncertain and maybe not as playful as she once was. He is still a kitten really. But she needs to feel like she owns the place and get  her confidence back.

I am trying to think of the other things we did. I am sure others will have some great advice as well. They both should know how to act around other cats since Odin was part of a colony and Nola was with other cats so I don't think this is a huge problem. It should be able to be overcome.

This might be a better thread in the cat behavior of the site. I am not sure the issue is because Odin might be a feral, I think it is probably just a cat thing (male vs female, kitten vs cat). The fact he is so good with humans also tells me he isn't really a "true" feral. I bring this up as it might get more reads and therefore advice in the cat behavior section.

And anymore info about the interactions is always helpful. Good luck, we'll get you to harmony and hopefully soon.  

Thanks for rescuing Odin. So nice to see another cat finding a great home. But I know the concern you are feeling, I have been there but it can work out.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #3

mak2024

TCS Member
Thread starter
Kitten
Joined
Apr 14, 2016
Messages
9
Purraise
1
Thank you for your response, that's extremely helpful. He seems to just want to play but he seems to have some trouble with her social cues and that's probably part of where her lack of confidence has now developed, he just won't relent even when she hisses and/or swats. Which leads to him swatting back most of the time although he's not much of a hisser. When she runs and he chases her, he does not stop. She goes under the bed and he stops there but that's usually by the time we've had a chance to let him know he needs to leave her alone. And whether he's chased her there or simply just walks up to her, he's often batting at her when she is under the edge of the bed (this is sort of where we've wondered if he's maybe actually not playing but nothing so far has led to a full blown fight). In a way he is aggresive but it seems like he just wants to hopefully make friends. And there has been some continued nose touching and he is always the instigator of that so that of course seems promising (even if she then hisses at him). The times when we have coaxed her out of the bedroom, she has to go down a relatively narrow hallway that leads to the living room where he usually is. Her body language is really cautious and many times lately, as soon she gets to the main room, if he's right there and we aren't quick enough he will usually chase her back to the bedroom. This has become the main problem situation over the last couple days; she may come out if we call her but as soon as she sees him her demeanor changes. She may mingle with us a little bit as we try to distract him but any slight advance from him, even something seeming innocent, and she runs. Then the chase.

She does like toys and she can absolutely be held. We've been attempting to have her on us sitting on the couch while he's on the floor and we need to keep doing that so I think we're on the right track. The treats are a good tip and we haven't done that yet.

A couple people have suggested putting her food in the bedroom where she's been hiding but we're reluctant about that one because we don't want to facilitate anything too accommodating. Any thoughts on that? Also, somebody said to shut her off from the bedroom entirely and have her face the crazy guy but that seems a little extreme so we've held off on that as well.

Thanks again, great advice and extremely reassuring to know it can be overcome. Really appreciate the input...
 

calicosrspecial

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Mar 14, 2016
Messages
4,428
Purraise
2,542
Firstly, I think your instincts and knowledge are excellent.

I would not put her food in the bedroom or keep her out of the bedroom. Your view that it would be too accommodating I believe is correct UNLESS she will not come out to eat and drink. Also, I don't like blocking off rooms UNLESS there is risk of injury to any cat.

I think getting them together with her above him either on the couch in your arms or with you standing there holding her and having him focus his attention on a toy will be very helpful. She needs to feel confident that he will not be after her and once she feels ok then I think you can progress from there. 

I think it is a play thing but tough to know without seeing it in person. If he wanted to hurt her he would have. Now it may be a territorial issue with him defending that room. Is there a cat tree or a hideaway or something he can call his? Maybe he needs a little confidence but it sounds more like playing to me. 

I'll try to search for other ways to build a cat's confidence and I'll post the links her. Hang in there, things will get better.
 

calicosrspecial

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Mar 14, 2016
Messages
4,428
Purraise
2,542
I was just thinking. How much less time and attention has she been getting since Odin came in? Is she still getting the same food/treats/play etc as before? Try to spend a lot of time with her. She needs to feel like she is not "being pushed out" or a "second fiddle" that she is still loved as much as possible. Treats really help that along with the petting etc.

Has her interactions with either of you been different since this behavior has started? Is she less affectionate? Acting differently (other than going under the bed)?

I was also thinking could one of you play with Odin in the bedroom while Nola plays and eats in the other room? And then if possible, can the other person bring Odin in the room (holding him) and see how Nola reacts (if she even notices)?

Let us know how things go. Good luck.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6

mak2024

TCS Member
Thread starter
Kitten
Joined
Apr 14, 2016
Messages
9
Purraise
1
He does have a couple spots he's beginning to call his own (which unfortunately were formerly hers). And one of them is up off the ground in a kitchen chair, he's been there more and more over the past couple days. We will probably pick up a couple cat trees soon as well. And yes, we have been trying to distract him and coax her to her food. He will inevitably come find her and she's tolerant to a degree but usually eventually runs away. It is a work in progress but I think we're on the right track with that routine. Also in case this is relevant, for now his food has remained in the spare bedroom where he first stayed when we brought him home. Hers is in the kitchen so they're eating in 2 different rooms. Their eating schedules have been quite different as she's been feeding less and may not eat until we finally succeed getting her to do it a bit later in the evening. We feed them raw food twice a day and he's been on a clockwork schedule while now for her, dinner is later and breakfast hasn't even happened for her in about 2 or 3 days because if she doesn't come out we eventually both have to leave for work (which has been really sad to have to leave). She has been getting a reasonable amount of attention but it could probably be more. Playing has nearly completely gone away because he will run over to her and try to join in which causes her to eventually retreat. One bright spot has been that she goes outside in our fenced backyard with one of us always there to keep her from climbing the walls (we live in an area with a few strays wandering around). We've been trying to keep this consistent but her brief morning outside time has gone away the past few days, we'll have to get that back. He will not go outside for quite a while, he's just too wild for now.
 

calicosrspecial

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Mar 14, 2016
Messages
4,428
Purraise
2,542
I don't think the food being in separate places is a problem. Would like to see what others think about that. I am glad she is eating in the kitchen where she can smell him.

We have to get him so he doesn't always go towards (after?) her. When he is eating can you bring Nola in (in your arms) and let her watch him eat (and not go after her) and then give her a little treat or food? I am worried that she is eating only once a day, Is she drinking often enough? Is she using her litter boxes and as often as she used to?  

Can one of you keep Odin in a different room (by feeding etc) while Nola plays in the other room (especially the one where the chases begin)? She needs to learn that she can own the whole house again. I am not suggesting locking Odin in a room but just distracted in a room by food or play. I think Nola has to get back to playing. Getting back into her normal routine.

Can you play with Odin and really get him tired out? So tired that he will not want to chase Nola? I know sometimes they don't respond to the toys forever but it sounds like he has a lot of energy and if we could drain it out I think that would help a lot. Does he have a favorite toy? Does he even respond to toys? You may have to try a few different ones.

And make sure you really show her love and attention. That helps a lot in this type of situation. Spoil her a little. Especially where Odin's scent is around.

I am also thinking about getting something that has Odin's scent on it (maybe you could put an old shirt on that chair in the kitchen somehow and maybe putting it under the bed she hides under. I need to think about this more and would love to hear what others think about that before you do this. She needs to know that Odin does not want to hurt her. Which I don't think he does, I just think he is a kitten and wants to play and she doesn't or is misinterpreting it but I am not totally sure, correct me if you see more dangerous behavior.

What % of time is she spending out from under the bed?

When you both are at work are they able to roam around and see each other?

It is interesting that Odin is not going under the bed.

I am hoping that others can offer some advice on this. I think you are doing the right things and maybe it just will take time but others may see something I am missing. I also wonder if this thread might get more looks if it is under cat behavior since this is about a female cat and a male kitten. 

Keep us up on how things are progressing. Good luck, I think you are doing a great job, you'll get there.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #8

mak2024

TCS Member
Thread starter
Kitten
Joined
Apr 14, 2016
Messages
9
Purraise
1
So as luck would have it, before we really even put any of these practices to work, Nola had already turned a corner; when I got home yesterday in the afternoon she was out of the bedroom. She wasn't right at her usual spot by the front door but not only did she come out from under the bed, she was in view on the other side of the living room right as I came in (and he was of course right at the door). So that was VERY encouraging. And the progress continued into last night and this morning. We carried her around to watch him a number of times last night while he was playing and eating. We also carried her out to the living room a couple times and sat down with her on the couch on our laps while he played on the floor in front of her. She doesn't sit a super long time but she seems to be on the right track. And there was only a single big blowout last night (a chase punctuated by some swiping and screeching as she dove under the bed) followed by an incident this morning where I intervened a bit but he actually stopped short of her and she didn't run away. We feel pretty certain he means well and he just wants to play. We feel like her bathroom habits might be a bit stunted but she hasn't totally ceased from going. She usually goes outside in the afternoon/evening when we let her out. She's continued being let outside but hasn't gone to the bathroom out there in the past few days. But she is using the litterbox (which they are both now sharing because he eventually just started going in the one designated for her). And we've been exhaustively playing with him and, although I didn't think it was humanly possible, probably giving her more attention, love and petting than before. As far as % time out from under the bed, this improved drastically last night and this morning. And she now seems to require less coaxing to come out when she actually does go under. He will sometimes venture under there and lie down and start playfully rolling not bothering her at all. And she even hopped up in our bed this morning for the first time in a couple weeks which was a huge positive step toward her old routine. He jumped up and scared her back down but he wasn't really being aggressive, he just seemed to want to be involved. Just her coming up though was a good sign. And yes, they both move around the whole house all day while we're gone. I've been second guessing this but that's where we're at so oh well (also in hindsight I wonder if the 5 days he spent closed in the spare bedroom was maybe too brief but again, oh well). I did post to the behavior board but didn't get any replies. So in a nutshell everything seems to be moving in the right direction; she's coming out more and he seems to also be figuring things out. Our next task is figuring out to get her eating again in the morning and how, if possible, to get him to not eat her food. They both get raw food twice a day. He eats his whole plate right when it gets placed in front of him. She's used to eating a bit and then walking away without having anyone there to steal if from her. We're having to continually pick up her plate so he won't eat it, put it in the fridge, then when she goes back to her spot asking for more, we take it out for her again. All while standing next to her in case he walks up, while one of us is trying to distract him playing in the other room. Someone suggested leaving it out so he can actually eat her food and she'll learn she has to eat it all at once but we haven't tried that yet. I'm going to post that in the behavior section as well. Thank you!
 

calicosrspecial

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Mar 14, 2016
Messages
4,428
Purraise
2,542
Terrific, youa re doing the right things and a great job. Odin just wants to play and Nola is just a bit not ready for that. 

If you see a chase bring a toy and try to distract Odin, get him to want to play with the toy rather than Nola.

I love that she didn't back away when he stopped short of her. Standing her ground, awesome. I don't think he means anything other than play but her standing up is a sign of confidence.

You mention he goes under the bed with her and rolls around. AWESOME. He just wants a friend play buddy. She is just not used to it so maybe he has come on a bit too fast.

Just please keep up what you are doing. Have her watch Odin play and try to wear him out so he is too exhausted to push the play with her.

I love they are using the same litter box.  Also now that you have two cats you probably should have 3 litter boxes if possible. I know it is a hassle and unsightly but it is a good thing if possible.

I think you are on a great path, just keep up what you are doing.

I am worried about her eating. I like the idea of leaving it out as long as you can and distract Odin in a different room with play.

Thanks for your post, I love to see such nice progress. Please keep us up on how things are going. You are doing all the right things so I think you are on a great path so just keep it up. 
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #10

mak2024

TCS Member
Thread starter
Kitten
Joined
Apr 14, 2016
Messages
9
Purraise
1
Yes it's continued to get a little bit better each day. But she is still pretty weary of him. And is still running from him sometimes but we are on the right track, the chasing is decreasing. If anything, he's adapting well and seems to have mellowed more so far compared to her actually getting more used to him. The food is an issue though. She is willing to come to her dish and start eating so that's good. But once he finishes his food in the other room, he eventually winds up checking her out in the kitchen even if we're trying to distract him. A number of people have said "eventually she'll know she has to eat fast or her food's gone" but "eventually" of course just needs to be NOW. It is what it is, cats are difficult. We're debating swapping their dining rooms and having him in the kitchen, putting her in the bedroom to eat so she can have a closed door (if we close the door on him, he eats so fast then just ends up scratching/meowing to get out and we don't want him to think he's punished). But we haven't played that card yet because it feels like it would be yet another major change for her. Thank you again for your responses, very helpful....
 

calicosrspecial

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Mar 14, 2016
Messages
4,428
Purraise
2,542
It just takes some time. But you are on the right track. 

How about baby gates instead of closing the door? Or anything that will allow them to see each other but that he can't jump over. So she can eat and he can see her but can't get to her?

The best thing to do is distract if at all possible. Maybe someone feed her first and then slow walk his food so she has a longer amount of time to eat.

I am trying to think of anything else that might help. I think what you are doing and time will help a lot.

Good luck.
 
Top