Cleopatra may have IBD(otherwise cancer).

Stewball said:

Jolly smart looking scale.

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Does the kitty come with it? 

So her calcium was still high on the latest blood draw? How high was it and is it higher than before?

I'm not sure which advisor is the expert on nutrition (sorry!).  @StefanZ  ?

@Cleopatras Mom  Which Alnutrin did you buy? The one that should be mixed with a meat/bone/organ grind or the one that has calcium and is intended to be used with meat & organ only?

Also, what recipe are you using?:

- Are you ordering a grind from Hare Today to use the Alnutrin premix with?

OR

- Are you planning on picking up pork from the market? 

I ordered the one for meat and organ only, for this time.

Also, I will be getting the food from the supermarket, just this batch. I REALLY wanted to buy from HareToday, but I just couldn't do it with the money I have.

Well, actually, I will be trying to buy some from a local food market or a local arm so I know what is in the pork.

Realistically, though, with her symptoms, I should just talk with the vet about cancer. I mean, yes, high calcium could mea several things, including a mess up in the in-house testing, however, with bloody stools, I don't see the odds in my favor, for like IBD, INCLUDING high calcium. The only thing I can do for her, other than just taking care of her and making her comfy, is Leukirin,(or however you spell it).

I think, with blood in her stools and everything on her bloodwork was normal, I would feel a lot better.

And thank for responding! Without going to a nutritional vet, I cannot allow her calcium to be lower than recommended, but I cannot have it higher than recommended.

I also wanted to make sure that she is getting more calories than she really needs. I really need her to gain some weight. It just is so hard...and I am really nervous. I have grown fond of Wellness Core, despite everything. She seems to like it.

Ginny said:

 
So her calcium was still high on the latest blood draw? How high was it and is it higher than before?

I'm not sure which advisor is the expert on nutrition (sorry!).  @StefanZ  ?

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I think the staff here are @pushylady    and @Norachan .

Down under the self forum is whom is the staff on that forum.

I do participate sometimes in treads here, but Im not expert here nor normally advising here.

Btw, the same remark on Health issues - I do participate sometimes, but no expert...

StefanZ said:

 
I think the staff here are @pushylady    and @Norachan .

Down under the self forum is whom is the staff on that forum.

I do participate sometimes in treads here, but Im not expert here nor normally advising here.

Btw, the same remark on Health issues - I do participate sometimes, but no expert...

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Thanks @StefanZ  !

Oh! I did not see your response, Ginny!

We only did her bloodwork once, on the 12th of April.

We tested he stools a month and a half before that, and found nothing.

On the 12th of April, calcium was high, phosphorus was slightly low or something?

And then one other thing, I am sorry, Ii have to check again, was on the low side of normal.

The vet suggested cancer, because of the blood in her stools, and that Royal Canin did not work.

Plus, she lost .1 pounds in a month and a half.

Ok.  Did you say that she got a little better on the Wellness food she likes best?  Has she continued to lose weight every week? That is distressing that she continues to have blood in her stool.

Sorry to be gross, but when you say there's blood in her stool, do you mean that the stool itself is black or what exactly?  Is there blood that seeps out of the stool which is brown?  What would you advise, @Red Top Rescue?  

I have not been on this thread but someone referenced me here so I checked it out and skimmed some.  At one point I thought you said the problem began with a time when she ate two mice.  I vaguely remembered that a certain kind of rodent poison can actually cause hypercalcemia in cats so I went searching for that article.  Here is a link to it.

http://www.pethealthnetwork.com/cat-health/cat-diseases-conditions-a-z/hypercalcemia-cats

Another thing that struck me was how she was doing better on Iams (I think) but the vet insisted she eat only Royal Canin.  I am in the camp that believes vets are NOT well trained in nutrition and they are brainwashed by the companies that make these so called "prescription" foods, and the fact is the only reason Science Diet is a "prescription" food is that in 1990 it made an agreement (a marketing decision) to have its prescription foods requiring prescriptions from vets.  Other companies followed suit, and they all marketed to the vets, and most vets dont have time to make their own studies of nutrition and the courses are frequently taught by members of the pet food industry, so it's just too easy for the vet to say "use only this' diet like your vet did with the RC and now your cat is hungry but losing weight.  Trust your cat.  Her instincts tell her pretty much if she needs something.  If she is hungry and you are offering her something she doesn't want, listen to her.  Read labels and compare. 

I am involved in another thread where a perfectl healthy young cat seems to be constantly hungry and never satisfied.  He is in Greece, so I asked what she was feeding, and it was a combination of RC dry food for "Appetite Control" (which is basically nothing digestible to speak of) and then Hills (basically i/d) for intestinal support, and that at least has meat in it but ingredients two and three are rice and corn.  The second was to counteract the diarrhea from the first one, and both of them were way too high in fiber.  The vets are doing the best they can with the knowledge they have, but most (at least the old school ones) do not have current or adequate knowledge.  Nutrition wasn't stressed in vet school, and its much like when the doctors were sold drugs by representatives of the drug companies, and they would use them, and sometimes (still) bad things happened.  I'm definitely sure of that with pet food.  Anyhow, you may know more about it than I do, since you are already working on creating a mixed food diet for your cats, but you haven't successfully transitioned her to wet food yet, much less homemade.  I would say forget the RC and if she was doing OK on Iams, start with that, only wet it, and if she was good on Wellness, there ARE some wellness wet foods that truly ARE grain free, and if she needs to gain weight and you can get her to eat Evo 95% Grain Free Chicken & Turkey (chewy.com carries it), then go with that.  It is so high fat that even skinny sick cats gain weight on it if they like it.  or you can add some Evo to whatever she normally likes.  As long as you are using commercial foods, READ LABELS.  If your vet says use one of these "special" diet foods but your cat says no, then listen to your cat.  Chances are she knows better than the vet.

If you are interested in checking out the other thread where the cat was never satisfied eating two prescription foods, it's in the behavior forum and called "obsessive eating."

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/319123/obsessive-eating

Thanks for all the responses! When people respond, it calms me a little.

@Ginny   Well, she is not losing weight as far as I can tell. I have a scale, but it only weighs every .2 pounds, and she weighs between 6.1 and 6.2, depending on if she has a full stomach and urine and stools still in her system. It is not tarry and black, and it just has red, fresh blood on the outside of her stools. So, at first, our vet suggested colitis, and put her on Royal Canin. She was previously on Iams, and was doing great. Then, one day, she had blood in her stools. It got a little worse because she grew constipated and stated vomiting after using the litterbox. On Prednisolone, that is resolved, and she can hold her bowels better now, too. However, she still has blood in her stools, a little less, but still there.

@Red Top Rescue   Yes, I did remember that this all started after she caught two mice in our house. We have lied here for over a year now, and we do not use poisons However, we have a room alongside mine that still needs to be cleaned out(an atticy sort of thing), so we have no idea if there could be something in there. I just realized about the hypercalcemia thing, but...would hypercalcemia last several months because of that? Would other things show up on her blood work beside high calcium? I thought, perhaps, she caught some parasites from the mice, but we have done two fecal exams, and one blood work test over the past four months. And she has always been a tiny cat. For several years we did not know better and fell them all sort of commercial foods under the sun. In late 2014, we put her on Iams Kitten, and then Iams Adult and she gained weight. She did splendid on that, until, in December, she developed blood in her stools while on Iams. We brought her to a vet, and they took a fecal exam. They did not fin anything, and gave her Albon. She was good on that, until she grew constipated as a side effect. OMG! Could this be it? Could this maybe be a long-term side effect from Albon? Ii heard severe dehydration is a side effect....Anywho, so we brought her to a different vet, and she said that it could be colitis. So, we put Cleo on Royal Canin Rabbit and Pea. She seemed to like it, but grew SO hungry, I felt horrible. She didn't eat enough of it, and would paw at the area we used to have Iams. She still had blood in her stools, so we brought her back. She lost a tiny bit of weigh, and we took a blood test, and calcium was slightly high, and phosporus I think was low, and something else was on the low side of normal. So, because of high calcium, bloody stools, and loss of weight(.1 pounds in over a month), she was worried about cancer. She suggested biopsy before Prednisolone, but we opted out of it. So, here we are today. We changed her food to Wellness Core Turkey and Duck which is Grain-free, soy-free, and something else. Also, it doesn't have fish oils or methionine, and it has a lower dose of calcium. Appetite wise, she is doing great on Wellness. I know an increased appetite IS a side effect of Prednisolone, however, she does not show a voracity of hunger, unlike on Royal Canin. She eats more, yes, but she does not beg every second of the day for everything under the sun like she previously did. She is content with this, eating half a cup a day. Also, she is given probiotics too. But, after all this, she still has blood in her stools.

Did you worm her since she ate those mice?  Hookworms, which are so tiny they are almost invisible, are usually the reason for blood in the stool, and it takes several wormings to get rid of them.  Here is an excerpt from http://www.2ndchance.info/parasite-cat.htm#S5  (emphasis added)

The great majority of cats obtain hookworms through ingesting (eating) hookworm larva that have hatched on the ground from the parasite’s eggs. Stool from infected cats can contain millions of these, thin-shelled eggs. When that stool contaminates damp, cool soil, eggs adhere the pet’s fur and are licked off during grooming. Eggs must develop for a time before they become infective (1-2 days). When the hookworm eggs actually hatch into hookworm larva, they are capable of penetrating the pet’s intact skin and paw pads as well. Rodents that accidentally ingest hookworm larva become infested with dormant cat hookworms in their tissue. It is thought that cats eating these creatures is a second important way the parasite spreads. Cockroaches and other vermin that cats play with and eat are another possible source of infection. Not all locations harbor hookworm larva that are a threat to your cat. They persist best in warm, humid soil. Freezing, drying and temperatures over 98F quickly kill the eggs.

After hookworm 3rd stage larva are eaten, a complicated migration process begins leading to mature hookworm parasites arriving in the pet’s small intestine, approximately 10-14 days later. Eggs that have hatched in the pet’s stomach or hookworm larva that have penetrated its skin or mouth burrow into the pet’s circulatory system (blood and lymph). From there, they are carried to the lungs. Once in the lungs, the larva they escape and are coughed up and re-swallowed. (a cough may be present at this time) This time around, they attach to the walls of the pet’s small intestine where they feed on blood, mature, and eventually lay more eggs that repeat the cycle. They do not stay attached to one place, but move about causing tissue (mucosal) destruction and ulceration for all of their 4-24 month life span.

Most infected older cats show only mild, nondescript symptoms of mild anemia, weight loss, poor appetite and , perhaps intermittent vomiting and diarrhea. Some have elevated blood eosinophil counts.

But Kittens and younger cats with heavy hookworm loads can become quite ill. In young kittens, the infestation can be fatal. When kittens die from hookworms, they die from the anemia caused by the feeding worms. This can occur very suddenly in very young animals – sometimes before other symptoms occur. But in most cases, the infestation causes bloody diarrhea, weakness, and vomiting of varying intensity. It can be confused with panleukopenia another common disease that causes similar signs and the two diseases can co-exist.

Severely affected pets often require hospitalization, supportive care and medications to sooth and protect their traumatized digestive system. Supplemental Iron is also helpful, and, of course, a medication to kill the hookworms. In some cases, kittens and debilitated adult cats can only be saved through blood transfusions.

Worming medications kill only hookworms that have finished their journey to the intestine. Because the time that the parasites arrive in the intestine is staggered, a single worming is never enough. Kittens should receive those medications at 6 , 8 and 12 weeks of age – earlier when a particular litter is in danger. You can read more about hookworms here.

I was comparing the two diets ingredients to see if I could tell why she was not satisfied with the Rabbit & Pea and is fine on the Turkey, and realized that (1) Rabbit is lower in fat and cholesterol than Turkey, Beef, Chicken and Pork, so the low fat might not have satisfied her, and Rabbit has 795 calories per pound, Chicken 810, Veal 840, Turkey 1190,Lamb 1420, Beef 1440, and Pork 2050. ( U S D A circular # 549 ).  If you compare the basic ingredients of each food, which do you think would be more satisfying?

RC Rabbit & Pea:  Water sufficient for processing, rabbit, rabbit liver, pea flour, vegetable oil, pea protein,

Wellness Turkey & Duck:  Turkey, Pork Liver, Turkey Broth, Duck,

NEVER MIND, those ingredients were for the WET foods of both kinds, not the dry ones.

Hmm, interesting. I have only tapewormed her since the. So, after several stool tests that show nothing, there is a possibility she may stilhave them?

Actually, it was a horror story with that mouse. She never eats them, but still. So, shekilled it in the middle of the night and she was meowing like crazy.  So, Ii went to shush her and gently wrapped my hands around her paws. It felt so weird so I gently squeezed it and her 'paws' disconnected from her body! I was petrified I squeezed her paws off and then realized I squeezed a dead mouse! 

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!         That's a strange mouse story.  

I know! It was petrifying. I was half asleep, so I had the irrational fear that I had squeezed off her paws because the fur had felt so soft. But no, it was just a mouse that I had squeezed. it was really gross, thoug because I had blood on my hands from it's wound. So, had to wash my hands thoroughly and see the doctor a week or so later.o3o

Well, two poops in less than 24 hours, this is not normal. She had an alarming amount of blood in her stools, though I missed a Prednisolone dosage. So, unfortunately, I may have to change her food again, which I will do. Seeing less calcium in her blood sample would be to ease my stress, but I can no longer keep her on this food, and must do something drastic. So, when Alnutrin get's here, we will try pork. And then discuss further options with the vet. Wish us luck, we still need it. A lot ot it. x/

All the best of luck from me!!!

What is your recipe that you're using? I know you got the Alnutrin for meat & organ only...did you get the one with eggshell calcium? Just curious...

So you're going to buy pork & liver from the market. I'm assuming that you're serving it raw since Alnutrin is meant for raw diets, not home cooked. Are you grinding it yourself? Or are you leaving it chuncked?

The reason I'm asking is because if you're not grinding the pork meat & liver, then you don't even need Alnutrin. You would only need to add a calcium supplement, such a eggshells. And fish oil occasionally.

But if you are grinding it, then Alnutrin is a great premix. The only additional supplement you would need is fish oil to balance out the Omega 6 to Omega 3 ratio.

Cleopatras Mom said:

 
Well, two poops in less than 24 hours, this is not normal. She had an alarming amount of blood in her stools, though I missed a Prednisolone dosage. So, unfortunately, I may have to change her food again, which I will do. Seeing less calcium in her blood sample would be to ease my stress, but I can no longer keep her on this food, and must do something drastic. So, when Alnutrin get's here, we will try pork. And then discuss further options with the vet. Wish us luck, we still need it. A lot ot it. x/

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     An alarming amount of blood in her stools is not good.  It sounds like you will need to do something drastic, not just change her food.  I'm so sorry.  When is her next appointment?