New here; need troubleshooting advice!

Greetings! I'm owned by several cats, and I am having some problems with one; I was hoping I could get some ideas for one of my adult cats.

He's about 8-9 years old.  For years, he and the others were free fed dry food but he began having uncontrollable bouts of diarrhea.  We switched to a LID (Natural Balance) and it seemed to help but he'd still flare up on occasion.  After having great success switching my dogs to raw, I started switching my cats and they all, surprisingly, took to it very well.  The cat having diarrhea I started on small feeds throughout the day of boiled venison, and he scarfed it.  He had no problems switching to raw.

The cat in question did well for several years on raw, but a few months back became constipated.  It got bad enough that he needed an enema, and the stool was very "gritty".  I believe his anal glands were very full, too.  IBD was discussed, and though the diagnose wasn't "definite", it's what we figure he has. 

I assumed it was bone content causing the problems, so I cut back on bone content.  All went well for awhile, and today he's back at it again.  I called the vet and they suggested separating him and giving him a dose of Miralax to see if it helps; if not, I'm to call her in the morning.  I gave the dose about an hour ago and he's sleeping in his basket.

He DOES get bone, however the bone he gets are grinds from My Pet Carnivore.  They all get this, as well as any boneless chunks or grinds from Hare Today.  They all get a bit of organs (liver, kidney, spleen, pancreas, etc) once or twice a week, depending on how much I hand out.  He gets very little; I'd say less than 10% bone.  Even so, his stool is usually harder than normal for a raw fed animal, so I'm a bit concerned about this.

The cats all get salmon oil, and a bit of Vitamin E oil as well.

A problem with having the number of cats I have (10) is that all of them were used to free feeding, so they eat their food quickly.  Not a big deal, but a few of them will go around and "steal" food from the others.  I have one cat that cannot have rabbit of any description.  Another cannot have beef, or beef organs.  (Both of these cats will throw this food up immediately).  They all do well on chicken and turkey, so that's what I usually feed just in case someone does a drive by and steals a chunk of meat off of someones plate.  If I use beef or rabbit, the anti-beef or anti-rabbit cat is fed separately (I do use quite a bit of beef heart for the dogs; the cats love this but Mr. Can't Have Beef throws it back up.)

I've been giving everyone a bit of The Honest Kitchens' Prowl, since there are a few that can't have certain things and the bone content is low, and it's a better way for me to ensure everyone is getting what they need on a more "limited" version of raw.  I'd give my right arm to have a group of cats that can have pretty much anything, but for now it's just not so.

I read an interesting bit that stated some cats will get constipated if they use clumping litter.  The cat in question uses clumping litter, though he's been known to go right in front of the box on occasion.  Whenever he uses the box, he flies out of there and shakes his feet like he can't stand the feel of litter between his toes.  The vet (when he was given the enema a few months ago) mentioned the gritty stool and I assumed it was the bone content, but now I'm wondering if it's possible he's been cleaning the litter off of his feet, he ingests it, and that's where the problems start.  He is NOT declawed.

I'm unsure on where to proceed from here.  I don't cook their food, nor do I feed veggies or any extras except Prowl (I use this probably 3-5 times a week, just as an add on, NOT as an entire meal.)  Their food seems to be of good quality.  If he needs some kind of added fiber, that isn't bone, I would be willing to do so.  My vet knows I raw feed, and though they're not 100% thrilled about it, they understand scare tactics aren't going to work with me (plus, the kibble and diarrhea combination was just as bad).  I just need a bit of help from anyone who has experienced this first hand, or if not, maybe has some ideas on what to try.

I have psyllium (spelling?) husk powder and read 1/4 teaspoon or so can be of great benefit as a precaution.  Any experiences here?

I would be willing to do pretty much anything (change the brand of litter entirely, cook a bland diet for awhile, or, if necessary, feed separately at least for awhile, add pureed veggies and/or pumpkin, etc.) 

Another note:  He's occasionally seems to cough like he has a hairball, but nothing ever comes up.  He has no known heart problems, lungs are clear and healthy.  Could it be the dust from the litter?  Maybe I OUGHT to change brands (we're using Pestel Easy Clean in a few boxes, and Arm and Hammer in a few others.  He seems to prefer, though not love, the Pestell.)

For what it's worth, my IBD dog suffered serious bouts of diarrhea for months before I decided to switch him to raw, and it seemed to practically solve all his problems.  He never got diarrhea, never got constipated, and never seemed to have any ill effects or "tweaking" necessary for his diet.

Any ideas or suggestions are very much appreciated.  Cheers! 

Why not use Alnutrin with eggshell calcium or EZcomplete rather than bone and see if that solves the constipation issue? I don't know what the grinds from my pet carnivore are, but I know a lot of the meat/bone/organ grinds from HT are high in bone content. Almost all of them are over 10% except for some of the beef ones. I don't know if you feed their meat/bone/organs or just their boneless. 

Hi Missmimz:

The grinds we use from My Pet Carnivore are either whole ground chicken (whole prey, just in a ground state) or the fine ground turkey necks.  I add muscle meat to these both, but more so to the ground turkey necks as they are higher in bone. 

I've used the ground meat, bones, and organs from HT, but I do add muscle meat as well.

At this point, I will probably either opt to add veggies or another source of fiber and try to keep him separate from the rest at feeding times to hopefully keep this from happening again.  I'm a little unsure on whether or not to use grains.

We've been doing the Miralax, and I've spoke with the vet today.  About an hour ago there was a single drop of pudding-type stool in his room.  It seems to be loosening up, but I think the laxative has him a bit upset because of the probable tummy aches.  Vet said to keep a close watch; she's on call all weekend and will see him anytime day or night. 

I'm debating on whether to keep him on a raw diet, or go cooked at least for awhile.  I cooked a very LID for a dog who was ill recently; I just cooked huge batches and froze.  

I've never tried the calcium supplements you recommended but I have used Animal Essentials Seaweed calcium.   If you feel Alnutrin would be a better choice, I would have no problems ordering some.

Thank you for your reply!

1 bruce 1 said:

 
Hi Missmimz:

The grinds we use from My Pet Carnivore are either whole ground chicken (whole prey, just in a ground state) or the fine ground turkey necks.  I add muscle meat to these both, but more so to the ground turkey necks as they are higher in bone. 

I've used the ground meat, bones, and organs from HT, but I do add muscle meat as well.

At this point, I will probably either opt to add veggies or another source of fiber and try to keep him separate from the rest at feeding times to hopefully keep this from happening again.  I'm a little unsure on whether or not to use grains.

We've been doing the Miralax, and I've spoke with the vet today.  About an hour ago there was a single drop of pudding-type stool in his room.  It seems to be loosening up, but I think the laxative has him a bit upset because of the probable tummy aches.  Vet said to keep a close watch; she's on call all weekend and will see him anytime day or night. 

I'm debating on whether to keep him on a raw diet, or go cooked at least for awhile.  I cooked a very LID for a dog who was ill recently; I just cooked huge batches and froze.  

I've never tried the calcium supplements you recommended but I have used Animal Essentials Seaweed calcium.   If you feel Alnutrin would be a better choice, I would have no problems ordering some.

Thank you for your reply!

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I personally wouldn't recommend adding grains or veggies. They are unnecessary and really, probably not going to help the constipation issue. Unless you are properly balancing the boneless meat you are adding, you may not be adding enough boneless to lower the bone content enough to help. Some cats get constipated anywhere above 10%, some even at 10. Here's a balancing calculator that should help you figure out if you're adding enough. You typically have to had a LOT of boneless meat to lower the bone content. Again, you should look into eggshell calcium if that doesn't help over adding something completely unnecessary like veggies or grains. I use eggshell calcium for one of my cats as well as EZcomplete, they are great bone alternatives. 

http://www.rawcalc.org/

Constipation can be a recurring issue for some IBD cats. I know of at least a couple who need a little 'help' to stay regular. I honestly think that this is the most likely culprit, rather than the diet itself. If the bone content was too high, you'd be seeing problems in more than one cat.

I honestly don't think you need to worry about the litter - I've used clumping litter all my life with many different cats, and I've never once seen a problem with it. It might be a good precaution to add a litter mat in front of the boxes though, just to help get paws litter free and to give you peace of mind.

M missmimz has a great point about trying eggshell as an alternative calcium source. It certainly can't do any harm, and it would help you start to rule out causes.

I hope you find a solution soon

Thank you both for your suggestions!!

I used the dilute bone calculator and I was feeding more bone than I thought.  Thank you for sharing the link!  I am adding a lot more muscle meat than I was previously. 

Even so, for the cat having the issues I am going to change to boneless for a short while and see how things go.  If anything I will add in bone extremely slowly (1/16th of a teaspoon slowly) and see if I notice any changes.  His first symptom both times were hiding out in a specific cat tree.  He likes this cat tree (it's massive and has two private "huts"), but when he starts having problems he spends a lot of time in those huts and spends a lot of time worrying his rear end.

The Miralax worked; this morning we had two pretty good sized rock hard nuggets with a splash of loose stool.  I am NOT fasting him; though I am feeding him very small amounts throughout the day.

Yesterday (after the Miralax; before the BM) he seemed uncomfortable, but tonight he's back to his normal self.  Playing, rolling onto his back, being silly and flirting (even though all my cats are SN'ed, he LOVES the ladies.)

As an experiment, I offered him 3 clean litter boxes.  One contained his old litter, another contained a new-to-him brand of clumping litter, and another contained pellets.  He checked all 3 out, then promptly hopped into the new litter and peed.  One of my cats strongly prefers the pellets, so I think from now on I'm going to keep 3 kinds of litter on hand and have a few boxes of each so everyone (hopefully) gets what they want.  He's always been very litter box averse, if I can find the right box, litter, and location I this will help.  I've seen him avoid a box if it has a single pee clump in it, so I'm wondering if the constipation isn't a combination of too much bone and being averse to the box, so he's holding it more than he should.  Obviously, I don't want that (not only because of the constipation issue, but it's just plain not pleasant or fair.)

Litter mats will be bought.  I will look at reviews but are there any specific kinds that seem to be well tolerated and liked by anyone else's purrkids?

Again, thank you for your help and insight.  I'm anxious to try him on these ideas.  My kitties and I all thank you

I've never used litter mats myself. Check out our own litterbox accessories reviews for ideas. You can always start a thread in The Lounge to ask other members directly too - that'll probably get more responses than here

UPDATE:

I'll try not to be graphic in description! If you're eating, put down the fork! 

My cat that's been having constipation problems went, for sure, Sunday morning.  I've kept him separate at night in a smaller cat enclosure (about 6 foot by 6 foot, with a cat tree, window box, etc) but he hasn't been overly active while confined.  So during the day (when I'm here) I've left him out with the others.  The only thing I've seen have been a few very hard, small nuggets in the box that I can only assume is from him as the others are quite "regular". 

I gave him some more Miralax yesterday night, this morning, and this evening with his food.  Just a few minutes ago he went to the box, dug around like crazy, and left an elephant sized pile of poo that stank to high heaven and cleared the room.  It was formed, with a little bit runny (not diarrhea-ish, just loose) but was HUGE.  He obviously felt the urgency because his digging in the box was frantic, so frantic that the only thing that made me look was the sound of him digging.  He didn't cry out or anything, so I don't feel it was overly painful.  He didn't strain a whole lot and it didn't take a ridiculous amount of time for him to pass it.

My main question is, how long should I continue with the Miralax?  I would prefer if he wasn't on it for life, but if it's necessary I would consider it.  I've read many accounts where it works well if given daily for quite awhile, but seems to lose potency after a few months, years, etc.  I would imagine that a daily laxative wouldn't be great for gut bacteria health, even if given with a probiotic.  I know I, personally, wouldn't want to be on them at every meal.

I am relieved (no pun intended!) that he "went", and seemed to empty out instead of just passing the odd nugget.

Yay for Miralax.  I'd see how he does now that you've got him going again.  He must feel very, very relieved!  Assuming that your vet is comfortable that nothing of significance is going on:  

Your thoughts about litter ingestion are interesting and that could well be the problem.  Does this cat use non-clay litter, and could you take away the clay litterbox for a while to see what happens?

I'd also simplify his diet by giving him just one protein (e.g. chicken) with liver and a supplement mix using eggshell calcium - either homemade or Alnutrin, but homemade is better since you can keep ingredients simple.  If he is ok on this, try slowly adding back other foods one at a time until you find the one that causes the constipation.  Or if he becomes constipated again, try adding pumpkin or psyllium husk to his food. 

It may be that he'd swallowed something that got stuck, and now he'll be fine.  Are you feeding My Pet Carnivore coarse grinds?  There might have been a large chunk of bone/gristle that took a while to digest.  Or he might have swallowed a foreign object.

Anyway good luck!!

Fantastic news that he's finally had a decent bowel movement

Speak to your vet about the Miralax. He/she really is the best person to advise you on how long to continue with it. A phone call might be all it takes, as a re examination may well not be needed in these circumstances.

I'm resurrecting my almost-year old thread to give an update on my IBD boy.

So far, so good.  He's no longer receiving any miralax or any medications at all.  I feed him completely separate from the others, and the food that's totally 100% agreed with him is green tripe.  He LOVES it.  My other cats (all 8 of them) will eat it grudgingly (they don't love it, but will eat it), but he hoover vacs it down faster than my dogs do.  This is OUTSTANDING as he was at the point he could eat one brand of food only, and we all know how much cat (and dog) food brands like to "improve" a formula that's already working, so this is a huge plus for me.

The only downside--any other raw gets him going again.  Even if I stay boneless and add a bit more organs, he still gets stopped up, so for now I'm doing one meal as tripe and one meal as a (carefully supplemented) home cooked diet. 

The other plus side--his teeth appear cleaner and his chronic eye-boogar collection he's had since a kitten has diminished by a good 80%.  Time was, every day he had yicky looking black crud at the inside corners of his eyes, now these happen once or twice a week and are smaller in size. 

I don't know what it is about the tripe--maybe the enzymes, as it's helped my dog with chronic digestive problems, but it's worked well for him and seems to be a better option than anything else I've found.  I don't know if tripe is a complete diet for cats or not (some dog people SWEAR that green tripe is a complete and perfect food for dogs), but I'm leery of taking the home made portions away for that reason alone.  If anyone here has a tripe addicted cat and feel that it's a complete diet on its own, please let me know.  I can do the home cooked, but it's a bit of a pain (time consuming).

All in all, I'm totally stoked

Fantastic that your boy is doing so much better

Tripe on its own is NOT a complete diet for cats (and I'd be suspicious of it being 100% complete on its own for dogs too :slant: ). You'll need to balance it with vitamins, minerals etc, especially taurine. That's my biggest worry here. This (old) thread has more information [thread="254408"][/thread]

Well, since I'm an old, lazy dinosaur I thought I'd post an update.
Our guy has gone from eating certain raw things to eating certain raw things in very small amounts mixed with Wellness canned food. He's doing very well.
His IBD has been under great control. An occasional helping of raw liver, heart, or tripe as a side-dish to a canned food diet has helped him. He still will eat a cooked diet, but only if it's freshly cooked and warmed, so we're OK with feeding him Wellness.
As I've said in other posts since my original here, he's had other inflammatory problems. Last fall, he went off food and spent a lot of time sleeping in weird positions (usually on a cat tree or a piece of furniture, head out and hanging.) One day I was home and noticed him ignoring the others and not eating well, when I said "hey man" he turned and let out a loud wheeze. I called the vet and they gave me an appointment time later in the day (with the assurance he seemed comfortable at rest and not in distress; I was told to bring him in immediately if he worsened). By the time we got him to the vet (a quick trip down the mountain thank God), the car ride stressed him. We waited in the waiting area and became concerned when he took the occasional breath with an open mouth; he was hospitalized and X-rayed and diagnosed with asthma.
He stayed at the vets overnight. Our vets aren't as open minded to alternative therapies as I wish but in emergency situations they have NEVER let us down. We got a phone call that night that he was stable, doing well, and even ate a little.
We picked him up the next day and were instructed to give prednisolone and wean him off. We did. He did very well.
That night we decided to re-do his living area to be asthmatic friendly.
A few months later, we had everything in place and moved the cats into an area away from the work space that included sanding, painting, and tearing out old carpeting.
For a week or so this guy did really good, but one day everyone noticed he wasn't eating and was sleeping in strange positions again. The workmen left for the day and I was here alone and watching him. I moved him into a silent room, away from TV's and air filters and heard the wheezing. I called the vet, gave an emergency dose to keep his air was open and he was taken to the vet and hospitalized. I explained our situation and our living arrangements and he was kept on a medical board for a few days. We brought him home. That was a month ago. The prednisolone was increased and gradually tapered. He's now getting a very minute dose 2-3 times a week; he's doing great. And dare I say all the cats like their new "space"; easier to clean, asthmatic friendly (HEPA filters and humidifiers are the friends of asthmatic individuals) and a nice, clean electric fireplace with a non-heat setting to make it look cozy and nice during the winter.
Tonight, he attacked my sock feet with a tremendous intensity and then rolled on his side happily, only to be head butted by a familiar cat, which caused him to take her down playfully, then groom her as if to say "no hard feelings, right?" So funny. This cat is almost 11.
I hate that he's on pred long term...even a small dose, but I hate the thought of a miserable cat that's unable to crap and finds breathing a challenge even more. What else can we do? :/