Bad Breeding?

Sorry if this seems minor compared to everything else on this forum, but there've been some things that have been bothering me. I have two cats that I got from the same breeder. I've had them for almost five and a half years now and there have been no major health problems so far, but I've noticed things in both of them that leads me the believe the breeder might not have been the best. Don't get me wrong, I love my cats and I wouldn't trade them for the world. I'm just curious and it might be nice to know if I should keep an eye out for any problems.

The two are both males and will be turning six this summer. They're great cats, but I'm not sure how great the breeder was. There are several things making me doubt since. One of those things is the fact that their both Napoleon's, but they don't look like it. I read that the breed is only suppose to be about six pounds. The boys are both around ten. Ash looks similar to a Maine Coon or Norwegian Forest Cat while Frost looks like he could be just about anything.

Something else is the fact that we thought we were getting a male and a female. Frost was believed to be a female cat and it was only when we got them neutered that we found out he was, in fact, a male. The vet didn't say it was anything serious and he's perfectly fine, but it's just another thing that makes me think that something wasn't right in the breeding.

However, the main thing that worries me is Ash. He's had two UTI's so far and we have to be careful to make sure he gets enough water. We've spent quite a bit of money on medication and water bowls. The really worrying part is that the tip of his tail is broke. It doesn't seem to bother him at all and it was never mentioned at the vet. I don't know if they just didn't notice or what. If anything though, it seems as if it could lack feeling. He has a tendency to freak out if I accidentally step on his tail, but he hardly even notices if I step on the very tip. You can easily feel break since it bends very sharply, but he doesn't seem to care if you touch it. Should I be watching out for anything? I don't want to cause a bunch of trouble over nothing, but I worry a lot especially about my animals.  

To be honest this is the first time I have heard of this breed so I looked them up.   From what I found they are a new hybrid breed that breeders started working on developing in 1996.  I know they have begun the process of being accepted for showing by some associations but being such a new breed they may not be fully stable as far as their appearance goes.  One kitten may have more appearance from one breed used in the mix and another may have more appearance from another breed.

The next time you have your kitty in for a checkup I would bring up your concerns about the tip  of his tail.  

The thing that does concern me is misidentifying the gender of a kitten.  Very young kittens can be difficult but by the time they are ready to go to their new home the gender should be obvious especially to a breeder.

The reason Frost was believed to be female was.... Well to put it simply, he had to have the same surgery as any female cat. He wasn't... Developed, I guess.

And the Napoleon breed is suppose to be a cross between a Persian and a Munchkin. Mom wanted cats that would be laid back and I wanted them to be small, so the breed was ideal. It just didn't work out the way we planned. My third cat is just as sweet if not sweeter than they are and her mother just showed up at our house.

I'll try to remember to bring it up next time I go to the vet, but I hope that's not for a while. We've spent enough money on Ash after he got two UTIs. I don't want anything else to go wrong. I love them both very much. I just thought it was weird that both my cats from the same breeder ended up with some problem.

An experienced cat person ought to be able to tell a cryptorchid male from a female, though :/. So, yes, I'd be somewhat concerned that he wasn't identified as a cryptorchid male, so that you'd be aware of the surgery he'd need. Cryptorchids happen, that's not a problem, but they should have told you about it. The UTIs, I wouldn't blame on the breeder. UTIs are very common in cats, and are especially problematic in males.

Size, I also wouldn't put that on the breeder. Probably the 6-pound guideline refers to the cats that inherit dwarfism, and I assume you knew the kittens you were getting weren't dwarfs, since you'd be able to see that they didn't have short legs when you bought them. Only half of Munchkin kittens are dwarfs, I don't know what percentage of Napoleons are dwarfs, and of course the breeders need to find good homes for non-dwarf kittens too.

Tail kinks are common in some breeds, I don't know if Persians or Munchkins have kinks very often. But they're harmless. Or it may have been caused by an injury, so definitely have the vet take a look the next time you're in. But I don't think it's a big deal.

I would say that the only concern I have is that the breeder didn't communicate with you as much as they should have. Other than that everything seems normal.

Yeah, I don't anything about the whole female/male thing. My mom said it kind of looked like he had a tumor. Why that wasn't a concern when she noticed, I don't know. But that was explained after getting him fixed. He was listed as a female on the site. Of course, I don't love him any less. Actually, it was my mom who wanted a female. I was the one who picked out Ash. So Frost is just my pretty boy.

Also, I don't really blame their size on the breeder, but I was under the impression that all Munchkins were small. Just some had really short legs. I didn't want the short legs. My main concern is the fact that they seem a bit big, even for a Persian. Especially since Ash is nothing like I expected. He doesn't even make the same sounds as Frost. In fact, can the sounds a cat make be related to the breed? It seems like it, bit Ash makes a chirping sound when he sees birds and the only breeds I know of doing that are the ones like Maine Coons.

If I find myself at the vet again, I will definitely try to remember to bring it up. I had meant to buy the last two trips were for his UTIs so I had a lot on my mind. I know I keep repeating myself, but nothing will bring me to give up my cats. They'll live with me until their last breath. I'm seriously just concerned with their health and the health of the cats the breeder has. I don't want any surprises because we went to someone who's in it for the money alone.

Some breeds are generally quite, some tend to be very talkative but it isn't an absolute.  The Persian is generally a quiet kitty but I am sure there are talkative Persians.  The Siamese is generally very talkative but I am sure there are quiet Siamese.  The only breed I know of, I am not very knowledgeable about the different breeds, that has a very distinctive voice is the Siamese.

Kitties have a whole range of vocalizations that are part of being a kitty regardless of the breed.  One of mine does the chirping thing when he is excited.  One of mine used to do the teeth chattering thing when she seen potential prey outside.  I have heard and read that is actually mimicking the kill bite.  She is almost 13 now and I haven't heard it in a while.

It's really weird and cool to hear Ash chirping. Frost doesn't do it at all. I've never even seen him try. I thought it was a bit weird and I already had some suspicions about Ash's breed. I think it's rubbed off on Ember though. Sometimes I catch her trying to chirp, but she had such a small voice as it is that the sound doesn't come out the same. In fact, there's hardly any sound at all. It's cute though.

I just know that the Maine Coon chirps because of videos online. I haven't seen any of other breeds though I'm sure there are some that can do it as well.

Domestic short hairs chirp. In fact, I've never seen a cat that didn't  chirp.

Napoleons are half Persian like you said, and 10 pounds is actually an ideal weight for a Persian. Persians just look smaller because they have a very short/stocky build. Of course your kitties are mixed so they won't necessarily fit any "exact" guideline. As long as they're healthy though, I don't see anything you've said to be a major concern. UTIs are very very common in cats, as are tail crooks, the only Thing that is a red flag to me about the breeder is that she didn't know "she" was really a "he". That could just be from lack of experience at the time though, considering this is a new breed. Of course I would love to see picture of them haha, I've never seen a Napoleon before!

DreamerRose said:

Domestic short hairs chirp. In fact, I've never seen a cat that didn't chirp.

Click to expand...

Really? Because I've had nine cats and Ash is the first to chirp. Ember tries and fails. Frost never even tries. He doesn't seem as interested in the birds though. He's more of a people cat while the other two pick and choose who they like.

haleyds said:

Napoleons are half Persian like you said, and 10 pounds is actually an ideal weight for a Persian. Persians just look smaller because they have a very short/stocky build. Of course your kitties are mixed so they won't necessarily fit any "exact" guideline. As long as they're healthy though, I don't see anything you've said to be a major concern. UTIs are very very common in cats, as are tail crooks, the only Thing that is a red flag to me about the breeder is that she didn't know "she" was really a "he". That could just be from lack of experience at the time though, considering this is a new breed. Of course I would love to see picture of them haha, I've never seen a Napoleon before!

Click to expand...

I'll put some pictures up. I have a few good ones. Unfortunately, several things keep me from getting really good pictures of them, but I have a few. They're beautiful cats.

Here's Ash:


Here's Frost:



Them together:


I have some of Ember too. I've no idea what she is.

Oh dear lord they're all three such pretty babies! I'm partial to white cats, and Frost is one handsome devil [emoji]128561[/emoji][emoji]128561[/emoji]

Yeah. He's my pretty boy. I wish I could get some better pictures. He had the most gorgeous blue eyes. Of course, I feel in love with Embers eyes the second they got their true color. They seem to glow in even the smallest amount of light. Ash has nice eyes when he isn't glaring. And let's face it, he's normally glaring.

Personally, I've always been drawn to darker fur. Frost was suppose to be my mom's cat which is how we ended up with a white furred cat. Not that I regret getting him. I love him, annoying meows and all. They were all so adorable as little kittens. I can't believe how big the boys have gotten. It shocks me every time I look at a picture of them as kittens.

 @Animal Freak   Yes, really. Ash wants to communicate with you, that's why he chirps. When they're watching birds, they chitter - anticipating catching the bird. Chirping is the way mother cats talk to their kittens, so when a cat chirps, it's imitating that mother/kitten relationship. Maybe those cats of yours don't chirp because either they didn't have a close relationship with their mothers or they don't feel that way with you.

All your cats are beautiful!

I'm sure what you're saying has truth in it, but of all my cats, Ash probably likes me the least. Not to say he hates me or anything, but he's more stand offish and antisocial. Ember seems to be the most attached to me and will communicate with me quite often. From what I've picked up, it is definitely linked to the birds though. It kind of looks like he's trying to talk to them. I wish I could let them outside to see the birds and feel the grass.

Beautiful cats! Ember tortoiseshell, possibly referred to as a 'moggie'

Thanks. Ember is an unknown as far as her breed goes. Her mother showed up at my house and I've seen what i presume to be her father a few times. He was obviously not socialized since he was running before I was even in sight. He was orange though so it makes since to believe he was the father. Ember has a bit of a skittish personality herself.

Animal Freak said:

 
Sorry if this seems minor compared to everything else on this forum, but there've been some things that have been bothering me. I have two cats that I got from the same breeder. I've had them for almost five and a half years now and there have been no major health problems so far, but I've noticed things in both of them that leads me the believe the breeder might not have been the best. Don't get me wrong, I love my cats and I wouldn't trade them for the world. I'm just curious and it might be nice to know if I should keep an eye out for any problems.

The two are both males and will be turning six this summer. They're great cats, but I'm not sure how great the breeder was. There are several things making me doubt since. One of those things is the fact that their both Napoleon's, but they don't look like it. I read that the breed is only suppose to be about six pounds. The boys are both around ten. Ash looks similar to a Maine Coon or Norwegian Forest Cat while Frost looks like he could be just about anything.

Something else is the fact that we thought we were getting a male and a female. Frost was believed to be a female cat and it was only when we got them neutered that we found out he was, in fact, a male. The vet didn't say it was anything serious and he's perfectly fine, but it's just another thing that makes me think that something wasn't right in the breeding.

However, the main thing that worries me is Ash. He's had two UTI's so far and we have to be careful to make sure he gets enough water. We've spent quite a bit of money on medication and water bowls. The really worrying part is that the tip of his tail is broke. It doesn't seem to bother him at all and it was never mentioned at the vet. I don't know if they just didn't notice or what. If anything though, it seems as if it could lack feeling. He has a tendency to freak out if I accidentally step on his tail, but he hardly even notices if I step on the very tip. You can easily feel break since it bends very sharply, but he doesn't seem to care if you touch it. Should I be watching out for anything? I don't want to cause a bunch of trouble over nothing, but I worry a lot especially about my animals.  

Click to expand...

A water fountain does often the trick with cats whom must drink extra much water, or whom are reluctant to drink water.

The gender determination isnt easy, esp boys may happen to be girls. It happened even in my own family, although both breeders discovered the mistake before the kitten was delivered, so no big harm done to anybody.   As it was our granddau and her daus children - it may be something partly genetic.  Yes, we are talking about cats.

Here with you it seems to be the opposite - which is thus a little odd.

But I cant help  wondering about your stepping on the tails.  How do you manage to step on their tails so much you get a full statatistics?    YOU must do something faulty here, as you manage to step on their tails that often.  Thus, the tail MAY be a knick from beginning - which a good breeder tries to avoid, but it may also be your doing. Obviously.

(Oh, Im not holy, I confess I almost sat down on my residents at least twice, when they were lying on the TV chair in the dark)

Look, I try not to step on them but they just always seem to be under my feet and sometimes I forget to look down. I almost always catch myself before putting a whole lot of weight on them. I normally step on a tail or two when I'm feeding them. It's a bit hard to dodge a cat when you're trying to dodge another. They pretty much have me surrounded when preparing their meal and I have to walk around a lot. I normally get the very tip of his tail and sometimes I don't feel it right away, but he doesn't even budge. There has only been one time where I stepped on his tail bad because I had shoes on and he ended up right behind me. I feel bad every time I think I could have hurt them, but they come out of nowhere. And it doesn't take that many times anyway. It's pretty easy to tell when he reacts and when he doesn't. It only takes a few.

I don't remember exactly when I noticed his tail. I've had them for almost five and a half years and it was shortly after getting them. Maybe a few days. If it was me, then I'd know because he would have been in pain. He's never once shown signs of it hurting. So what are the chances of it being me?

Also, we have a water fountain. Our second one. Ash hasn't had a UTI with that and the wet cat food.

I didn't read all the comments so forgive me if I am repeating something someone else said. Ash definately looks Maine coonish but that could be because somewhere in the munchkin line there is mainecoon. So if you breed that munchkin with those genes with a Persian, the mainecoon genes may just have proven dominant in your Napolean/Minuet kitty. Your babies are beautiful btw. I just got my first Napolean/Minuet last weekend. His paws are huge! The breeder told me they expect him to get really big so it just has to do with the bloodlines of the Munchkins used in the breeding programs used to create the Napolean/Minuet cat since we know Persians are generally small in stature. Also, when the original creator of the Minuet decided to make this new breed it was because he didn't like that the long legged Munchkins looked like any other cat that you could find in a shelter. He want to create a cat that had a specific look especially in the face that was distinguishable even in long legged versions which is why he chose to use the Persian which is clearly a distinguishable breed. He wants a specific look in the face. So size wasn't really and issue but it is possible to breed them down to a more compact size in the future which I think most Napolean/Minuet breeders will do if they haven't started to already.

That actually has not been said and is very interesting. I did find a little more information on the breed just recently stating that they aren't always actually Persians, but of the Persian group. It said that they could be Persian, exotic short hair, or something else I can't remember. I, of course, looked up each cat and neither of the boys look like any of them. Ash definitely has some traits of the Maine Coon, but not all and isn't as big weighing in at around eleven pounds which is quite a lot more than the Munchkin breed which I believe I read to be around six pounds, but that's probably the short legged ones.

I also got thrown off because what I had recently read said that Napoleons pretty much look like Persians, but with the short legs of the Munchkins. If that's true, then they definitely aren't what they're supposed to be. They aren't stocky or round faced like Persians. I had considered Ash being part Maine Coon, but never really thought about it being some distant ancestor or anything. This also would mean Frost has something else in him too. Kind of strange two cats of the same breed from different parents ended up not looking like that the breed.

They are beautiful and magnificent cats. Though they typically only like me when they want something, they're great nonetheless and are a pleasure to have. They're very docile and calm. Especially my Frost who acts as if he doesn't have a care in the world. Which perhaps he doesn't. So they are great cats to have and rather low maintenance. At least their lower than Ember who needs something from me every five minutes.