Anyone ever seen this kind of aggression?

I recently got my cats through non-recognition aggression due to a vet visit.  It took almost 4 weeks to the day.  They have been together now for over a week and have even been grooming each other and sleeping on the couch together.   Yesterday, I came in from work, they both followed me in the bathroom (a tiny place where they were perfectly calm), begged for dinner, ate dinner and were grooming themselves.  About 30 min after dinner, the fur was flying.  I don't know what happened, one cat walked into the living room  and then both were staring, screaming, and then the chase and fighting was on. 

I separated them and a few hours later, tried feeding them in sight of each other.  They couldn't focus on eating even though they were 10-12 feet apart-so separated again and this morning, tried again.  They were tense, but could be in the same room.  Some hissing if they got to close to each other, but mostly they respected each other's space.    I separated them after 15 min  so it ended on a good note and I have to leave for work so I don't want to leave them together. 

Anybody ever seen this?  Or anything like this?

I think your only option for right now is to separate them, give them some time to calm down (maybe a day or two), and start over with reintroductions. I know it sucks, but allowing things to escalate is only going to damage the relationship further. All I can think is there's something outside that set them off - either another cat or something else that spooked them. Redirected aggression can be so hard to sort out, but time and patience should eventually restore the peace.

The problem where this all started was due to the smells from the vet, it triggers fear then aggression from fear, but it's fear of the smells.

Doing some scent swapping or making them both smell the same is very helpful.

I've taken a dryer sheet and lightly swiped it over both, or they can also both be bathed.

Thanks.  I live on a second floor apartment so I don't think another cat or dog would be the problem, but who knows how far the smell travels.  I have separated them and started over.  I hope the non-recognition aggression hasn't damaged their relationship permanently.  I also made some mistakes the first time I tried reintroducing them.  Hopefully this time around it won't take as long (since I won't be making those mistakes again!).

Thank you.  I have started wiping them with each other's scent.  When I was putting them back together from the vet visit, I found that my one cat can hold an odor on her fur for a week!  She was there because she was vomiting.  The vet couldn't figure out why, but gave he an anti-nausea injection.  That stopped it for a while, and now we are down to maybe once a week.  She did it two days ago, and I am wondering if she doesn't have a slightly altered scent causing all this. 

In regards to the redirect aggression-I haven't quite worked out how to quote yet- I wanted to say thanks for the link.  I have always thought redirected aggression had to come from the presence of another outside cat or dog or an immediate other stresser, like thunderstorms, but reading your link make me realize it could be a build up of stress too. 

In regards to the response about it becoming a fear of scents, I am a zoo keeper for a living and while normally I work with primates and small mammals, I worked with large deer, antelope, and domestic farm animals the day this happened.  I smelled particularly bad that day.  I took my clothes off in the bathroom (where the cats followed me) and while I don't think they noticed my clothes, could those odd scents have set this off, especially given that we've recently gone through non-recognition aggression?

Anmllvr said:

 
In regards to the redirect aggression-I haven't quite worked out how to quote yet- I wanted to say thanks for the link.  I have always thought redirected aggression had to come from the presence of another outside cat or dog or an immediate other stresser, like thunderstorms, but reading your link make me realize it could be a build up of stress too. 

In regards to the response about it becoming a fear of scents, I am a zoo keeper for a living and while normally I work with primates and small mammals, I worked with large deer, antelope, and domestic farm animals the day this happened.  I smelled particularly bad that day.  I took my clothes off in the bathroom (where the cats followed me) and while I don't think they noticed my clothes, could those odd scents have set this off, especially given that we've recently gone through non-recognition aggression?

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I would think there's a pretty good chance of that happening.

Is one cat dominant?

Yes, the cat who went to the vet and then wasn't recognized by the other cat is generally the dominant one. 

catwoman707 said:

 
I would think there's a pretty good chance of that happening.

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I was afraid that might be the case.

Anmllvr said:

 
Yes, the cat who went to the vet and then wasn't recognized by the other cat is generally the dominant one. 

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That could explain it right there.  The cat that went to the vet was showing signs of illness/weakness, the other cat could have either made a play for dominance or tried to correct the unusual behaviour.  I've been learning a lot about it with our Mamma - she's dominant to the extreme but only with cats that are showing signs of instability.  The more unstable they are the harsher the response - anything from a small growl (sniffing incorrectly) to an all out attack (subject of the attack was panicking because it was trapped)

Anmllvr said:

 
Thank you.  I have started wiping them with each other's scent.  When I was putting them back together from the vet visit, I found that my one cat can hold an odor on her fur for a week!  She was there because she was vomiting.  The vet couldn't figure out why, but gave he an anti-nausea injection.  That stopped it for a while, and now we are down to maybe once a week.  She did it two days ago, and I am wondering if she doesn't have a slightly altered scent causing all this. 

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As for quoting, at the lower right hand of the post you want to quote there is a quote tab, just click on that and it will pop up in the reply box.

What's the story on the vomiting girl? How old?

Might be the ever growing popular IBD going on.

Good to know.  Isabel (the non-dominant one) has always been very good about Sadie's position. And Isabel has always continued to work toward being best friends with Sadie.  She grooms her, tries to play with her, etc.  And this last January, 5 years of that had paid off, they were playing with each other almost nightly . Isabel has IBD and has had several, not-so-fun, vet visits and the last one in July really freaked her out.  Sadie, thankfully, has never attacked Isabel after a vet visit-and there have been lots.  I thought what set the original bout of non-recognition aggression off was Sadie smelling like the vet and Isabel reliving her fear of the vet from that time. They managed a week back together after a month of introductions where they were even sleeping on the couch at the same time and grooming each other and head butting, then WHAM! out of no where, there is growling, spitting, and an all out chase. 

It's really hard to tell without a detailed description as "the fur was flying" can refer all all sorts of things. They could possibly just "re-arranging" hierarchies. It may look scary but IMO, it's best to let them sort this out. The important thing is for you to keep your cool and not add more tension to the situation. No shouting, no staring at them, no reprimanding. If they pick up on your stress, it's going to get matters worse as they begin to associate each other's presence with fear and stress.

I wouldn't separate them necessarily but again, it's really difficult to tell from here where to draw the line. You want to keep them safe, that's for sure, but you also need to allow them to work things out. Since it's been a month since the vet visit, I really don't think this is about that episode. They were grooming each other and getting along just fine, so I'm pretty sure that vet episode is a thing of the past.

I definitely agree.  I think this is a dominance thing and not an aggression/recognition problem.  They'll keep fighting until you let them sort it out fully.  It'll often look/sound worse than it is.  I stumbled on a good trick though; if you feel like things are escalating too much - Cesar Millan's 'schht' () + moving towards them will often interrupt things and send both cats trotting away because you've just told them you're boss and to cut it out.  Then just leave it, don't hover or chase them, just sit down relax, and go back to doing something else. 

JMJimmy said:

 
I definitely agree.  I think this is a dominance thing and not an aggression/recognition problem.  They'll keep fighting until you let them sort it out fully.  It'll often look/sound worse than it is.  I stumbled on a good trick though; if you feel like things are escalating too much - Cesar Millan's 'schht' () + moving towards them will often interrupt things and send both cats trotting away because you've just told them you're boss and to cut it out.  Then just leave it, don't hover or chase them, just sit down relax, and go back to doing something else. 

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To better describe "the fur was flying":  I was sitting on the couch after the cats had had their meal.  Both had had a good week-sitting on the couch together, playing while the other was in the room in a relaxed posture, etc.  Then Sadie went down the hall-out of sight, around a corner (I am wondering if she went and rubbed on my dirty work clothes-she likes to do that as they smell of other animals) and then I heard a low moan/grown.  I looked down and Isabel is crouched, ears flat emitting this sound.  I look over and there is Sadie on the other side of the end table, doing the same thing.  The stare is hard and although I put a large pillow between them, it did nothing to break the stair or the sound.  

The next thing I know Isabal's tail is 3x it's normal size and she darts after Sadie, while making that growl/moan sound, intermixed with hissing an spitting.  It's the same sound I heard when Sadie came back from the vet and Isabel didn't know who she was.  Sadie is making the same noise but running away.  I, of course, go to separate them, and Sadie turns around, backs Isabel into the doorway of the bathroom and starts spitting at her and is actively swatting (though that term doesn't seem strong enough).  Isabel's ears are way back and so are Sadie's.  I put a base to an old cat tree I have between them and it bumped Sadie when she lunged for Isabel.  She turned and went into the bedroom.  I immediately closed the door and Isabel it at the door screaming, digging, spitting, etc. trying to get to Sadie. 

I waited several hours then tried to feed them the way I was during reintros for the vet aggresssion.  They were 10 feet apart.  It was okay for a few minutes, then Isabel left and began that long stare that I know means she's going to attack, because I can't break it.  I waited longer. 

The next day the were comfortable enough to eat withing 3 feet of each other (I didn't start there, but that  is where we ended up) and as long as one doesn't go into another room and/or out of sight, things are fine.  When Sadie went into a bedroom to use the litter, Isabel walked down the hall and the chasing ensued.  I was able to stop it before it was a problem, and so far today, things are going well.  Mornings are usually better in terms of their companionship.

When we first went through non-regocgnition aggression, I wasn't prepared and that behavior I saw two days ago resulted in a puncture wound under an eye and blood around a claw.  So I am weary of letting them work it out. 

catwoman707 said:

 
As for quoting, at the lower right hand of the post you want to quote there is a quote tab, just click on that and it will pop up in the reply box.

What's the story on the vomiting girl? How old?

Might be the ever growing popular IBD going on.

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Thanks for the help on the quoting!

The currently vomiting cat (Sadie) is roughly 11 years old-she's a rescue who the vet believed was at least 1 year old when she was rescued.  So that was last March 10 years ago.  My other cat, Isabel, who is 5 and 1/2 years old, has IBD and has since she was 5 months old.  

To get Isabel's IBD under control (after years of various meds and prescription foods) I put both cats on a raw diet. Which has worked wonders!  Sadie is more active, Isabel has stopped vomiting and has no more diarrhea.  We've been on a 100% raw diet for 4 months now. 

My cats are fed 3x a day.  Once in the morning, once right after work and then before bed.  At the end of January,  Sadie vomited at the 2nd meal, 30-40 minutes after she ate it.  She kept the last meal down with no problems.  She vomited the second meal 30-40 minutes after eating for four days straight.   Never the first meal or the the third.

So the vet couldn't find what might be causing that (though Sadie does have high cholesterol apparently) and gave her an anti-nausea shot to break this cycle.

She didn't vomit for about 2 weeks.  Then it started again-only 1-2 days a week, but only at the 2nd meal. I attributed a lot of that to stress-due to the vet aggression and being locked in a room every other day due to the site swapping for re intros.

Yesterday, after the second meal, and it was Isabel's turn in the bedroom, she started to vomit.  Not wanting to clean up raw food vomit from carpet again-I followed her around with a plate under her mouth.  She tried to avoid me and ultimately did not vomit.  That was interesting to say the least .  Makes me think this is behavioral.

Yeah this is all dominance displays.  I see it almost every day with our Mama and strays that come around that she's unsure of or is wanting to correct their bad behaviour. 

Both your cats want to be dominant because you're the low cat on the totem pole.  I doubt that Isabel didn't recognize Sadie, rather that when she was away Isabel asserted the dominant role over you.  Sadie comes back and you've got tension/dominance being worked out again.  This battle will continue until one submits or you take the "Alpha" role.

Placing stuff between them, separating them, etc. is just escalating things.  You're blocking their attempts to sort things out between each other which just creates frustration.  Like an argument you want to have with someone but can't for some reason - things just build until something breaks & you lash out more than you intended. 

Let them work it out, part of that is likely going to be a small cat fight or two.  If things get too violent then you need to step in with your presence and tell them to cool it - nothing elaborate just make a big sound to snap them out of attack mode and an advancement into the space they were in to show that you're the one who tells them what to do.  Then relax walk away slowly. 

Again, Mama shows me this every day - once she's satisfied that she's dominated the other cat and it's listening to her, she turns her back on them as a challenge like "here, you can try to stab me in the back if you dare" - when they don't, she slowly walks away like she's too good to walk at a normal speed and then lays down. 

Sorry if I come off a bit preachy - I've been learning a lot about cat behaviour in the past month and it's fun to share what I've learned

JMJimmy said:

 
Yeah this is all dominance displays.  I see it almost every day with our Mama and strays that come around that she's unsure of or is wanting to correct their bad behaviour. 

Both your cats want to be dominant because you're the low cat on the totem pole.  I doubt that Isabel didn't recognize Sadie, rather that when she was away Isabel asserted the dominant role over you.  Sadie comes back and you've got tension/dominance being worked out again.  This battle will continue until one submits or you take the "Alpha" role.

Placing stuff between them, separating them, etc. is just escalating things.  You're blocking their attempts to sort things out between each other which just creates frustration.  Like an argument you want to have with someone but can't for some reason - things just build until something breaks & you lash out more than you intended. 

Let them work it out, part of that is likely going to be a small cat fight or two.  If things get too violent then you need to step in with your presence and tell them to cool it - nothing elaborate just make a big sound to snap them out of attack mode and an advancement into the space they were in to show that you're the one who tells them what to do.  Then relax walk away slowly. 

Again, Mama shows me this every day - once she's satisfied that she's dominated the other cat and it's listening to her, she turns her back on them as a challenge like "here, you can try to stab me in the back if you dare" - when they don't, she slowly walks away like she's too good to walk at a normal speed and then lays down. 

Sorry if I come off a bit preachy - I've been learning a lot about cat behaviour in the past month and it's fun to share what I've learned

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Please feel free to share what you've learned!  I have some questions about this though. Sadie was at the vet for an hour and I was with her the whole time.  So I was never gone and therefore am not sure how Isabel could have  asserted her dominance over me. .  That was over a month ago and we actually (I hope) sorted that out over a week ago.  But just two days ago, after I came home from work, this started again.  I came in, both cats were bumping up against each other (head butts, body rubs when they walk), Isabel licked Sadie on the head and neck, all things they do right while I'm preparing their food..  I fed them within 10 minutes of coming home, they ate and started grooming themselves.  Sadie had walked down the hall.  I never heard her come back, but clearly, when she did some 5 minutes or so later, things had changed.  It was exactly as it was after the vet visit a month prior. 

The two actual fights they have had occurred when I couldn't snap them out of it with a loud sound, bang or even standing between them.  One of those ended in blood. 

I am definitely a factor here.   No doubt of that. Especially depending on how stressed I am over this situation.  That definitely escalates things.  I have learned that if I break it up, and do so by picking up Isabel, that sets Sadie off.  Sadie views me as hers.  When I had to give Isabel injections for her IBD, she got upset once and made a noise (not a hiss or aggression) and Sadie took that noise to mean she was hurting me, not the other way around, and hissed and swatted Isabel.  So If Isabel is making noises(growl/moan sounds) and I pick her up, Sadie takes that as an attack on me and jumps to remove the intruder.  So I have to remove Sadie, which works well.  I don't always pick them up-sometimes that is a bad idea, but if I can't break the stare from one of them, then I herd Sadie into another room if possible. 

Anmllvr said:

 
Please feel free to share what you've learned!  I have some questions about this though. Sadie was at the vet for an hour and I was with her the whole time.  So I was never gone and therefore am not sure how Isabel could have  asserted her dominance over me. .  That was over a month ago and we actually (I hope) sorted that out over a week ago.  But just two days ago, after I came home from work, this started again.  I came in, both cats were bumping up against each other (head butts, body rubs when they walk), Isabel licked Sadie on the head and neck, all things they do right while I'm preparing their food..  I fed them within 10 minutes of coming home, they ate and started grooming themselves.  Sadie had walked down the hall.  I never heard her come back, but clearly, when she did some 5 minutes or so later, things had changed.  It was exactly as it was after the vet visit a month prior. 

The two actual fights they have had occurred when I couldn't snap them out of it with a loud sound, bang or even standing between them.  One of those ended in blood. 

I am definitely a factor here.   No doubt of that. Especially depending on how stressed I am over this situation.  That definitely escalates things.  I have learned that if I break it up, and do so by picking up Isabel, that sets Sadie off.  Sadie views me as hers.  When I had to give Isabel injections for her IBD, she got upset once and made a noise (not a hiss or aggression) and Sadie took that noise to mean she was hurting me, not the other way around, and hissed and swatted Isabel.  So If Isabel is making noises(growl/moan sounds) and I pick her up, Sadie takes that as an attack on me and jumps to remove the intruder.  So I have to remove Sadie, which works well.  I don't always pick them up-sometimes that is a bad idea, but if I can't break the stare from one of them, then I herd Sadie into another room if possible. 

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Sorry I misread part of what you'd posted about the vet visit.   They are both dominant over you though, they're just struggling for who is Alpha (which should be you).  The 'loud sound' does need to be something they'll respond to - the "schht" sounds a bit like a hiss so I think they might respond to that or do whatever works for you/them.  The key though is that you have to move in and make sure they know YOU are the boss and that you're telling them to stop fighting for dominance because they're going to follow you. 

Re: "Sadie took that noise to mean she was hurting me" - actually Sadie was doing her job as dominant cat.  Part of that job is to ensure that subordinates are behaving - Isabel being unsure/stressed/etc will get a response from Sadie to say "calm down and be normal"... think of it like a slap in the face for a panicking human - not pleasant but it snaps them back to a more normal state of mind pretty quickly.  They're no longer thinking about what's causing them to panic, they're thinking 'someone just slapped me'.  The hiss/swat is the cat version of that.

Re: "If Isabel is making noises(growl/moan sounds) and I pick her up, Sadie takes that as an attack on me and jumps to remove the intruder. " - This is actually that Isabel is asserting dominance, and part of a dominance display is raising the head as high as it can to make the cat seem bigger.  When you pick up Isabel you're putting her in the more dominant position and Sadie can't "put Isabel in her place" as it were.

When I break up a fight, I make 1 noise (the schht) and begin advancing - before I take a 2nd step both cats are completely focused on me and moving away together.  I then follow through with claiming the spot where the fight took place (there are trigger spots like narrow hallways or access to the outside).  Once they appear to surrender to me, I walk back to where I was sitting.  It's worked every time and no blood drawn.  Anything more than 3-4 swats means they've taken it further than I'll allow.

This is a bit hard to watch but it's great example of the dominance/submission behaviour: In this case the owner interferes and picks the white cat as the winner.  The interference doesn't stop the fight but it de-escalates it by putting one cat at a disadvantage.  At 1m05s the brown cat begins to surrender by putting the ears forward and plopping its but down - but doesn't completely surrender because its tail is still going.  The white cat continues to try to dominate and doesn't stop until the full surrender that actually happens at 3m16s with the tail stopping - only then does the white cat start to scale down its posturing and then turns & walks slowly away.  That is an option you could choose if you're not able to dominate both your cats, whenever there's a confrontation push Isabel so her bum is facing Sadie.  It will send the message that you want her to submit to Sadie but it must be done in a calm manner - if you're freaking out or afraid Isabel will probably give you a good scratch or bite.