Is it a UTI or behavioral? Any votes?

Hi all,

First of all, I know I have to take this cat to the vet, today if at all possible, which is making me have an anxiety attack, as we just took the cat we adopted from my mom to the vet for an ingrown dew claw to the tune of $168 last week. Thankfully, he is healing fine, with just a bad bout of diarrhea from the antibiotic shot they gave him, but that one trip to the vet is causing me to fret about how to pay the bills this month and next.

Now, there is a problem with Tigger. He has started peeing outside the box. When this first happened, I thought it was a reaction to the arrival of my mom's cat. We did a slow introduction, and actually, of my three cats, Tigger appears to be the one who is tolerating the new male cat the best (walks by him, jumps up where he is sleeping and just steps over him, etc.)  So, the first incident of a cat peeing outside the box was actually in my son's shoe, which he had left right inside the back door. I cleaned it up, and before I had time to consider the possible action to take, the other shoe was a target. I put the shoes in the closet, and i also put another litter box in the house in my office, where this cat loves to lie on my desk as I work from home. We only had a total of 3 boxes and 4 cats. I have purchased a 5th box, but I have not decided where to put it. However, the 4th box was accepted by all, but i am wondering if that is actually an issue. In other words, maybe my cats do not like sharing a box with the new cat? After putting up the shoes and adding a box, there was not another incident for at least a few weeks, at least not that I know of.

There are also some strays cats or outdoor neighbor cats that have been regularly fighting or mating or something near our sliding doors. I heard them through earbuds the other day. It is unusually warm for February, so i wondered if females are in heat already. Does that make sense? So, it crossed my mind that peeing outside the box might be a territorial thing because of those cats. The reason I mention that is because, the other night, we were in the living room where the other door to the outside is. We heard a cat peeing, and he had peed on another pair of shoes (again my adult son's--on purpose or irony??). I jumped up and cleaned and cleaned. It seems that he is going near the entrance/exit doors. He has not been outside since I trapped him and his brother and sister as kittens 5 years ago when their mom left them in my back yard.

In addition to peeing outside the box, Tigger has started raising his rear very high and peeing behind and spraying the litter box sides, and it seems to me like the volume of pee is more than usual (fills the corner and you can see the stream across the top of the litter, which is also a bit odd, since he has always been big on digging and burying).

So, this morning, I was sitting at the computer in my office, and I heard pee hitting something, definitely not the litter box that was in the room. Sure enough, I actually witnessed Tigger peeing standing and shooting backwards. I actually think he was aiming for my son's shoes (which now likely still smell like pee residual from before-and I advised my son to keep them in the closet to no avail) but ended up hitting some boxes that my husband had brought in from work to pack some things up in, so the shoes were spared but not the carpet. By the way, this seems to be a lot of pee. With 4 cats, it is hard to tell if he is drinking more or not (thought I thought the bowel was lower than usual when I changed it one day this week), but this incident was literally a foot and a half away from the new litter box in the office, so my guess is either this is behavioral or a pain aversion that he thinks might be solved by going outside the box.

I do know this particular cat is very attached to me and can be stressed easier. He sometimes refuses to greet me for a few minutes if I leave the house for more than a few hours, and he developed diarrhea when both of my children started college at the same time (one on campus and one computing). 

By the way, Tigger is 5 years old, a male, and he has never had any issues with UTI or urinating outside the box.

I am actually worried sick about the situation because I have read so many horror stories of cats who pee outside the box when it is not medical. If this is due to my mom's cat being here, I don't know what to do. The reason we took him in was because she has progressing dementia and caring for the cat who lived in her room with her was not going well (and we suspected at least verbal abuse and maybe her on the verge of kicking or hitting  him with her mood swings). What am I going to do if this is due to him living here? Does Feliway help this sort of thing? Financially, we are not doing well. Keeping Feliway full all the time is rather expensive.  I don't know who is more stressed about this, me or the cat! LOL! My husband will not put up with this very long, and he adores Tigger.

Also, I thought i would mention that the pee does not smell particularly strong. Is that good or bad? I mean, he peed a cup in the office, and when I was cleaning, I was surprised that the odor was not worse.

Lastly, and this may or may not be my imagination, I have thought that Tigger might be purring louder when he is sleeping in bed with me (and he has been coming over to me more at the computer, like he wants me to do something--but that could be food). His appetite is always healthy. I even thought he might be hyperthyroid at one point because he can be obsessed with food, but the numbers were fine when they were checked about 2 years ago. Oh....they are on all wet food (just stopped the tiny bit of Natural Balance Limited Ingredient Chicken and Pea about a week ago, but this started before that). Brands are Nutro, Nature's Variety, and Weruva, but I do confess to more Weruva since my mom's cat got here, since he will only eat Weruva and minced Nutro.

Sorry about the novel. Part of me is worried if it is medical, as I know cats who get UTIs can be prone, and financially, I don't know how we would deal with a cat who got sick even periodically. By the same token, I have read so many stories of people who cannot get a cat who pees from stress to stop. i am already thinking of Prozac or something.

Like I said, I am going to call the vet this afternoon, but I worry that they won't get a good sample or something, and I know it will cost $200 or more to do the workup. Between my mom's illness and this, I am going to need the Prozac for myself!

I just wondered of anyone might be able to say that any group of things mentioned here was more likely a sign of medical or behavioral. i am preparing for the worst of either. I just paid off a credit card and was so glad to not have that bill anymore. It looks like that is about to change with a trip to the vet today.

All input and encouragement is welcome. Everyone here was great when Tigger had diarrhea a couple of years back, and the advice was very helpful!

You're right that the vet is the first stop just to rule out any underlying health issues.  Going outside the box is often the sign of cystitis or a UTI.  Diabetes and kidney issues are often associated with increased urine output, while standing up in the box to pee is sometimes associated with arthritis.  Is Tigger drinking more water?  If so, that might explain why the urine seems more dilute, with less odor.

With the addition of another male cat to your home, however, there is a strong possibility there's a behavior problem.  The way Tigger is lifting his rear end and shooting backwards sounds like spraying and that is very often related to territorial and dominance issues.  This could be either the new male or the increased activity outside but I suspect it's the new male in the house since it started with his arrival.

Feliway can help with this but I understand the financial issue. Amazon is said to have the best prices, btw.   There are other calming agents as well, like Composure, Bach's Rescue Remedy and Spirit Essences.  Usually medication is considered a last resort, but I would raise the question with the vet.   Many of our members have had good results with prozac or one of the anti-anxiety medications like xanax, ativan or valium.  If you go the prozac route, remember it takes a few weeks to take effect so don't give up hope right away.

An important part of controlling this is cleaning up with an enzymatic cleaner, like Nature's Miracle.  There are many on the market  - that's just an example.

I hope Tigger's issues are resolved quickly.  Please keep us up to date on what happens! 

Along with all of the above, I want to mention that for your Mom's cat, if he still has diarrhea from his antibiotic, try giving him a probiotic every day.  Just mix it into his food.  You can use any human probiotic...just yours if you take them.  Maybe mix 1/2 capsule into his morning meal, and 1/2 at night.

Feliway IS supposed to help with urinary issues, but it can be expensive.  One vial lasts about 30 days, and you need more than one vial in your house.  I used 3 and not sure that was enough.  We had one in our great room, then one in the Master Bedroom area, and another one upstairs. 

Do you order your cat food via the internet with autoshipping?  That would be another way to save money.  For 4 cats, you could definitely order enough to get free shipping, AND most places offer a discount if you're on auto ship. 

After calming down a bit, I did some research. I am 98% sure he is marking  by the position he was in when I saw him this morning and the shower he gave the boxes. I think he is spraying/marking at the same time as relieving the bladder, even in the litter box, since the showering the back of the box and the corners is also new--likely he is telling the new cat this is his box or whatever, since I have seen mom's cat using it. Tonight ,there was another cat lying right outside the sliding glass doors in my office on the deck, and Tigger was pawing at the glass. That does not help things at all. I read you should block visual to the other cat, but I do worry that, with 4 cats, I could never block all of the windows and such. I mean, we would be living without any outside light, and they might get bored with no windows

I am having my DH pick up some Feliway and Nature's Miracle. The makers of Feliway have a video that says you should clean and then spray with the Feliway spray. Since his two spots are at the doors, I am going to try cleaning and spraying those and putting a plugin diffuser in the kitchen for starters, unless they are on sale at Petco (then I will get two). Like someone mentioned, they are cheaper at Amazon most of the time. I figured we would get one for the kitchen, since that is where all of the food stress is, and also, that is the center of our home. You cannot go to much of any room in this house without passing through there. Maybe they will pick up on the calmness just passing through there while the order is shipping from Amazon. I can get the free shipping, but I don't have Prime, so it will be standard. (Used up the free month of Prime getting college books for the kids). All in all, it is still likely cheaper than one trip to the vet. Labs and urine and an exam could run over $200 easily.

Thanks for the tip on buying food online. I have looked into it. I am not sure I can swing it with the way our checks fall, but we will see. I am self employed and get checks usually around the middle and first of the month. My DH gets paid every two weeks, so that varies depending on the number of weeks in a month. I am often counting cans to make sure I buy enough of the right flavors and such to keep the variety and rotation. My mom's cat won't eat any pate, and of course, my three cats love pate. LOL! They all love Paw Lickin' Chicken, but if I bought a case, they would have to eat it every other night for two weeks or something. We don't have the cash flow to stock up.

I think if he had a UTI, it would be happening every day with nearly every urination, and he is not drinking heavily, as I filled the water bowls about 12 hours ago, and they were not low at all when I put fresh water in them.

I have been trying to love on him a bit more, sing songs to him that I have sung to him all his life, just to help him feel secure in his status. He was the first of my three cats to ever sleep in my lap or let me pick him up, and his brother and sister followed his lead in terms of trusting us and such. I want mom's cat to feel loved, but I can see there is going to be a delicate balance of making the new cat feel at home and not making Tigger feel that his place in the home is being threatened, I guess.

I will let you know if things get better. I do wonder how people ever foster cats and such without this sort of thing happening all the time.

By the way, the cat outside has been out there in the past (before mom's cat got here and before the spraying). I am just thinking that stress with a cat is like human stress. Maybe he could handle the cat on the other side of the glass but when we brought one into the home, that was too much. If you add that the stress he likely picks up on in us with my mom's illness....he is handling more than you think.

I may have missed this but wanted to ask - is he fixed?

Also, did they do blood work by chance? The dilute urine is definitely a sign of kidney disease, but not in itself necessarily. However, in combination with other things that would show on blood work, it's possible. 5 is pretty young for that but it does happen.

I'm glad you're taking him to the vet. I hope they do some blood work while you are there and hopefully that gets to the bottom of it.

Yes, all four cats are neutered/spayed. I had mine spayed at around 4 months old when I trapped them and brought them in, and Mom either neutered her cat or he was that way when she got him.

I actually do not know if his Tigger's is dilute.  I actually read that normally their urine should not be that strong, and the fact that he has had nothing but canned food (thus extra water and not the two handfuls of dry food a day in kibble) might explain why his urine does not smell that strong. I know my own urine smells less if I drink more water and eat less salt that is dehydrating.

The other thing I noticed is that, after feeding, he started meowing and hanging around the back door.  Even his brother started howling, so I have a feeling there were cats outside.  It was raining, so they may have stayed around under cars or something for shelter.  I also thought about the fact that he has been getting more Weruva.  Before this past week or so, he has been getting a mix of the Nutro and Nature's Variety with Weruva being less, mostly because I realize that it has fewer calories.  Tigger is very lean.  He is the most active cat in the house because he is more social and affectionate, so he is spending time in my husband's lap when he gets home while the other three are often fine with napping if they are full then.  I am sure he burns more calories.  I am wondering if he has been hungry, which could be yet another source of stress, especially if in his little cat brain he perceives the new cat in the house as competition for food.

Before taking him to the vet, I want to get as much environmental information.  When we took my mom's cat there with his toenail, my husband actually did talk to the vet about some of the food aggression and such that goes on now (no outright brawls but a lot of slapping fights that come and go, especially near feeding time or during preparation), and the vet and one of the girls up front we have known for years both said they have had really good results with Feliway helping that sort of thing.  If a visit to the vet shows no health issues, I want to be able to tell the vet what I have done to help with stress.   That way, if he does recommend Prozac or Valium, I will be more open to that idea.  I suppose I am secretly hoping the Feliway and extra emotional support will solve the marking issue and save me the hundreds of dollars at the vets.  After all, if this is a UTI or kidney issue, it won't go away. We lost a cat to hyperthyroidism and renal failure a few years ago. Also, I know vet visits cause stress for the cat who goes and the others who witness him leaving and coming home smelling like the vets.

Being a cat parent is hard, especially when you are struggling to pay the bills.  I know there are people who would say that I likely should not have 4 cats if I cannot afford at least labs for all of them each year.  We are working on the financial stuff.  We are still recovering from the start of the recession in 2009 when my husband was let go from two jobs and still makes less than either of those two jobs paid after raises every year and a promotion over the last 3 years.  My cats came to me during one of those periods when he was unemployed and not getting interviews and I was scared and getting very depressed.  I call them my hope kitties, since they helped lift my depression by giving me a distraction from my own self worries that was placed on worrying about their well being. My mom helped pay for them to get shots and be spayed/neutered then.  Again, I did not hesitate to run mom's cat to the vet when we realized his dew claw was growing into his pad (he finally got relaxed enough to roll over, and I saw it), so I am not going to ignore anything here. The timing and his personality and the pattern as well as the cats outside and no crying when he urinates or him running in and out of the litter box with small amounts plus his propensity to be easily affected by change by history.....Seems the odds are this is behavioral or stress induced.  Of course, peace of mind is worth something, and a trip to the vet can get me that.  I can always call and get a price quote on what they usually run, though I know they cannot give me a price the penny.  I might have to talk to my husband and son about how lean we can eat to cover the cost.

I do so appreciate all of the input.  Everyone here is so great! 

Cat urine should be concentrated though (that's how they work by design, so to speak). So, there SHOULD be a smell. I never thought anything about it before myself, Sara had non-smelly pee and I thought it was great! Especially when she had a UTI and peed on my bed Well, it was not such a great thing after all, because it's not normal. When the urine stops concentrating as it should, which can happen with kidney disease, it becomes more dilute and loses its smell. It's nice for humans but not good for the cats.

If you can get labs on that particular cat, that would be very helpful. I'm really worried about him, and if you can catch potential kidney disease early, it's definitely better for him. I would never say you shouldn't have the four cats. I've been there. And I've had cats all my life. There were times I had to sell jewelry just to keep the electricity from being shut off. I had about two years that were really rough before I finally moved to a different department in my company.

You might want to post in the Behavior Forum to see what the experts over there think

they might have some good tips for you

Hi again,

I know this thread I started now seems old, but I am hoping an update will get a few replies.  I may have to post on the behavior site.  I admit that I put off taking Tigger to the vet until last week.  His urinating/spraying comes and goes, so just when we think he is better, it happens again.  He had been doing it mostly near the front and back door, either on shoes or on the wall, but last weekend, he urinating on my daughter's clothes, and he also urinating in a briefcase of my husband's that has been open on a dresser in our bedroom for literally years with some various things in it.  That briefcase is at least near a window in our bedroom, so I was at least thinking he might still be marking his territory  from outside cats, since this is definitely the season for cats in heat outside that would attract unneutered males. However, him urinating on my daughter's clothes in the bag she brings home (she is in college and came home for the weekend) seemed more about him stressing over her new relationship with my mom's cat.  Before Loki moved here, my daughter would come home on the weekends, and Tigger and his sister would immediately hop in her lap and take a nap while she watched TV.  They still do that when she is in the living room, but Loki does nap with her and on her if she is on the bed with her laptop in her room.  A few days after that, he urinated on a pair of my husband's shoes near the back door.  Since he seemed to be going on more spots, I decided to rule out anything physical and took him to the vet.

So, they did a urinalysis, but apparently, it was not terribly unusual.  He said there were a few crystals but nothing that abnormal (and I have read that a cat having a small amount of crystals alone is not necessarily abnormal; is that right?).  He said it sounded like he was stressed, and he put a Nurture collar on him.  He did send him home with Clavamox to have him take to cover any possible infection.  My husband actually took him to the vet, and he said the vet never actually mentioned bacteria or a UTI. 

I did not want to change more than one thing at a time, so I did not start the antibiotic.  After all, he already had on this collar that was new, and he was periodically scratching it or whatever.  It has been a week, and right on schedule, he squatted by the front door on the carpet.  He was actively spraying, but now, sometimes, he squats and just leaves a puddle.  I really hated to give and antibiotic, since this cat has issues with diarrhea when stressed anyway, and he has been good in that area lately.  However, tonight, I got desperate and gave him a dose with his dinner.  Then, of course, I ran across a thread of people talking about how Clavamox caused really bad nausea and vomiting in their cats.  I am now considering not giving him anymore.  The last time this cat got nauseous from some medication, he would not eat for days, and I had to use baby food to get him to try eating again.

I have been talking to my husband, and despite our strapped budget, I am thinking of doing some things with part of the tax refund when ti comes to help offer this cat more stress outlets, including adding some new taller scratching posts (the ones we had were smaller and are starting to fall apart anyway), buying a couple of cat trees (I confess that we have had some boxes piled up that they have used for some different levels of living, but none are very high), maybe adding some shelves even in the actual living room for them to walk on like a bridge or putting tunnels in the floor?, and also adding a water fountain (which I have not done due to cost of the unit and the cost of filters as well as having one cat who loves to play in water so figured a fountain might just become a toy), as well as maybe buying a few toys and trying to make time to actually play with Tigger specifically more.  He will be 6 this year, and he still loves to play with the fishing pole-type toys.  I just work so much that it is hard to work it in, but if 5 minutes twice a day would help......

I have also discussed the idea of getting several bottles of Feliway spray and using that on say the curtains around the windows and doors, carpets near doors, bedding that is shared with my cats, the couches they sleep on, and such and doing it as an experiment every day for a month to see if he can ever go a month without marking.

We can always pull up the carpet in the living room.  There is hardwood under it.  We just do not know the condition, but we had a dog that ruined the carpet anyway, as she could not hold her urine as she got older.  We just put throw rugs over the worst spots and have lived with that since we no longer have dogs. 

So I am asking the experienced people here if they think I should stop the antibiotic after one dose.  The vet seemed pretty sure this was stress.  If it is stress, with the environmental measures help? 

Thanks for your input. I may need to post in the behavior section as well. 

I would call the vet to ask if the intention was that you start the antibiotic now, and if that was the intention, you should probably do that. I realize it's multiple things, but sometimes cats have multiple things thrown at them, and we don't have the choice of saying one at a time (my cat with acute renal failure had the book thrown at her, pretty much).

As for stress causing him to pee - if the vet thinks it's only that and not really an infection, and doesn't think the antibiotic would help much, it's possible he could be put on Prozac. The only bad thing is the tablets just aren't that cheap. You can always dump out the contents of a capsule and try to mix it in food or put it in a different gel cap (gel caps are cheap enough), but that probably is pretty difficult. If you have a Walmart near you, I think the tablets are on their $4 list. I opted to go with a discount plan offered by the drug store near me that covers the entire household.

It is NOT abnormal for cats to have a few crystals (per MY Vet).  All of those things you mentioned could definitely help cut down on stress.  You could even build your own cat trees/condos.  There are lots of tutorials on- line for that, and it's certainly a LOT cheaper than buying them.  And there is certainly nothing wrong with box forts too!  And box tunnels.  We use the Costco boxes to make tunnels around here for the furkids.  

  http://www.thecatsite.com/t/70558/building-a-cat-tree

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/287693/anybody-ever-build-a-cat-tree-condo

This one is neat because not only does it cover cat trees, but also shelves and other stuff:

http://www.thecatsite.com/a/how-to-build-diy-cat-furniture

And here's a thread on DIY cat toys!  (Although one of my cats' favorite toy is a long piece of fat grograin (sp?) ribbon tied to a doorknob.  It hangs on the floor so it has plenty of length for him to play with it and walk with it, yet he can't walk AWAY with it .  And because it's tied to the doorknob, I don't have to worry about him ingesting it. 

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/270076/diy-cat-toys#post_3465216

Look for a fountain at a Thrift Shop or on Craigslist.  I reuse my filters over and over again.  They say to change them over 2 weeks or so, but I reuse mine for a couple of months, at least.  I just rinse them really well every time I wash the fountain (never use soap, though, on the filter)

Clavamox can definitely cause lethargy and digestive issues...depends on the cat.  I would double check with the Vet and see.  If this is just precautionary, then you've got a decision to make   One dose will not do much good though.  It's either give it as prescribed, or none, really.   As far as the possibility of a calming DRUG, like prozac, I guess that could be a last resort, if nothing else helps.  If it comes down to this, you might also check Walgreens.  They have a pet insurance program for prescription drugs.  I used it for lactated ringers for my kidney cat back a couple of years ago and verified that they still had the program earlier this year. 

Thanks for all of the great links, mrsgreenjeans!  I will study up!

Donutte, as for the vet's intention, I think he was just trying to cover the bases.  From what my husband related, he did not really see anything in the urine that would explain the urinating outside the box, but if you are a vet and someone pays $150 to see you, it may be you feel you have to do more than tell them to put this calming collar on and use Feliway and hope for the best, especially given that so many people give up on cats that urinate in the house.  I felt like he was just trying to use that as a way to rule out anything he might have missed.  I know one dose would not cure any infection, if there was one.  I just gave him one dose and then read about the possible nausea and vomiting and worried that he might suffer great stress and maybe not even have an infection--and clearly, the last thing this cat might need is stress.

One interesting thing that has happened lately is that, when I clean Loki's litter box, which happens to be the only uncovered one in the house, Tigger follows me and jumps in as soon as it is clean and urinates in it.  He did this a few hours after squatting on the carpet by the living room door and then again about 8 hours later when I cleaned it.  He also had sprayed/urinated inside the covered box in my office.  Then, about 9 hours later, I did a second round of litter box cleanings, and I did Loki's first, and sure enough, Tigger hopped in and urinated right in front of me right after I cleaned it.  Now, that last time, he urinated quite a bit, and that was after that one dose of Clavamox but also after he had had napped more than usual for that time of day (did not know the Clavamox could cause lethargy, but that explains that).  I just have not really noticed Tigger using the box that actually came here with Loki that much, but I may have just not been right there when he did.

We have been considering a litter box in the living room by the front door (at least for a while), and now, I am thinking of maybe getting another uncovered box to see if that helps.  Maybe he feels less vulnerable to my mom's cat without the cover (or maybe he is putting his scent in that box to send a message to my mom's cat).  I will say that my mom's cat can be a bully, especially during feeding prep (while I am cleaning litter boxes and filling water bowls, he is swatting at my cats--mostly the males).  I have been trying to get him put up as soon as I am done cleaning and getting water for his room, so my cats are not abused during the time of day they look forward to the most.  It is certainly less stressful for me and hopefully is for my cats as well.

I did see an episode of MCFH, where he had the family put litter boxes all over the house to help a stressed cat feel comfortable going wherever and whenever.  They were also angry with the cat, as I think they had some nice things ruined.  I am lucky that we don't have any oriental rugs or any brand new furniture.  We had dogs, cats, and kids for years, so there was no point in having really expensive stuff really.  I guess that is a blessing.  I have really cautioned my husband not to yell at Tigger when he catches him.  This is like a kitty anxiety attack, so it is not something he can just stop having because we wish it so.  He is actually more affectionate and loving in some ways since he started it, as if he is seeking that reassurance that he is loved.

One last question, if I do start adding a fountain, cat tree, scratching posts, etc., how often would you feel is not so fast that he would be more stressed by the change?

Thanks!

Ah...covered litter boxes.  Some cats absolutely dislike those for the reasons you stated.  They cannot see what's or who's lurking outside.  Do you use those because you have cats who toss litter outside the box?  I've got one who is a real digger, so I made my own boxes out of Rubbermade tubs.  They have very high walls and are long and wide.  They are really the storage tubs.  I do NOT use the lids, but what I did was cut an opening in one end and duct taped around the opening to make it nice and smooth.  That really cut down on the litter that was kicked out.    This same cat who digs and digs and kicks the litter all over the box ALSO waits until we clean the box to use it.  We keep one box in our tub, and it never fails that AS we are cleaning it, he's sitting on the edge of the tub waiting.  As soon as the scooper is out, he's IN .  We clean all the boxes twice a day.   You might think about uncovering all your boxes and see if that helps.

As to your last question on introducing new cat stuff, gosh, I've never even thought about that.  I would say it might depend on whether or not you have to move furniture or anything to bring in a cat tree.  If not, then don't see why you couldn't do something new at least once a week.  That question might be better asked in the behavior forum though.  They're the experts on that kind of stuff