Strange happenings

I am not sure that you entirely understand what that second picture, the one of Scotty, actually shows.  This is a cat who, until very recently, was at best a stray, at worst, semi-feral, and in a very short time you have him not only enjoying affection, but willingly and happily exposing his belly while in your lap.  That is phenominal.  There are those of us who have had our cats since kittenhood, and they've never been totally comfortable with that.  ALL of these cats are becoming socialized far more quickly than anyone could have expected.  I'm not entirely sure what you and Alpha Kitty are doing, but you have evidently stumbled onto a system that works very, very well. 

I don't think it's anything special we're doing... I'm calm, Alpha Kitty is fearless, and it's just a matter of building trust.  Most importantly trust that we will be there (ie: the door will be open when they need a place to hunker down), and that we're not making them afraid (well... except if they spray).  The rest is just trying stuff and seeing how the cat reacts.  With Scotty it was Alpha Kitty again who just said "I'm picking you up now" and she held him like a baby and he loved it.  She tried to pick up Mama a few weeks after he moved in and the result was a scream and running away.  Granted it was not a good read on her part (she was pushing things a bit too fast & Mama was a bit excited) but we've since learned that Mama will only allow you to move her from once surface to another and then only begrudgingly.  That's the bulk of it, paying attention to what the cat is telling you and accepting what it's willing to give - not what we want to take.

Scotty was an unusually fast turnaround.  3 weeks from his first long stay to that picture is pretty amazing for any cat.  The vet thinks he's 4-5 years old and we know for certain he's been on the streets for at least 2 years. 

Things are getting worse here.  Scotty is healing nicely, unfortunately that means he's more willing to get into it with Junior.  There was a big cat fight today, I didn't see it but I did see half a dozen tufts of fur flying up from the battlegrounds shortly after.  Junior is becoming more fearful by the day, not just of Scotty but of us and the apartment as well - he's checking every corner and spending more and more time outside (even during the day).  Mama is showing signs of stress (she wants to protect Junior) and is redirecting some of the tension onto Sissy. 

I'm really not sure how to get things back on track, it may simply be one cat too far.

There a bunch of articles available here about reintroductions, etc, that you might be able to use as springboards to get everyone back on track.  Dang.  I thought the worst was over, and it may really be...this stuff can happen.

Have you tried Feliway in any form?  It really has been a wonderful help in our family.

Tarasgirl06 said:

 
Have you tried Feliway in any form?  It really has been a wonderful help in our family.

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Not possible for our location due to $$$.  It would cost about $165 for the diffusers needed and most of it would just end up going out the windows/doors which we have to keep open most of the time due to an ancient heating system (if we don't the temperature can spike to 36C (~97F))

Scotty is very tame now, right? You can pick him up and handle him without any trouble. I suggest you try re-introducing the two of them. Keep Scotty in another room and start with the basics, scent exchange and feeding on a towel that the other cat has been petted with, then slowly move on to feeding them on opposite sides of a closed door. This article has some good advice.

 [article="32680"]How To Successfully Introduce Cats The Ultimate Guide​[/article]  

Also, check out some of Jackson Galaxy's videos on cat introduction on YouTube. 

One of my cats, Mia, hated absolutely hated the other cats and would turn into a howling demon every time she caught a glimpse of one of them for a long time. She had to have her own room with her own private corner of the enclosure for about 6 months. I actually though she would never get along with the others so didn't bother trying to re-introduce them at first. However, they used to watch each other through the enclosure netting and when Mia became comfortable with the sight of the others I started giving them treats when they came close to the netting. Now she's fully integrated, the separate enclose is part of the main enclosure again and all the doors inside the house are left open.

She'll now let some of the others get this close to her, which was absolutely unthinkable a few years ago.


It can take months for them to be able to tolerate each other. I think every time Scotty and Junior have a fight you are setting yourself back a step. If you can keep Scotty in his own part of the house and prevent anymore fights you'll be one step closer to having them all get along.

Sorry to hear that.  I've only ever used the spray, which can be applied to drapes, curtains, walls, etc. and works very well to keep cats friendly and calm. 

Norachan said:

It can take months for them to be able to tolerate each other. I think every time Scotty and Junior have a fight you are setting yourself back a step. If you can keep Scotty in his own part of the house and prevent anymore fights you'll be one step closer to having them all get along.

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At least now I know it's possible!    Such a cute pair, I love the colouring on the bottom kitty.

You're right about the fighting & set backs.  It's a bit strange because Junior sleeps in the bed immediately beside the food/water and other than the odd hiss or growl when Scotty first approaches he stays and watches him eat/drink without issue.  Scotty is very polite about it, he reaches out and moves any wayward kibble out of the way before he moves in to take a drink so he's giving Junior all the space he can.  He'll walk by Junior in his box and ignore him.  When treats are out, the two of them completely forget each other - they'll eat literally within inches of one another without issue.  The two main problems seem to be at ~2-4am when they all want outside and are going to the door to see if they can get out.  This results in a dust up between the two almost every night - usually nothing too serious but enough to wake us up.  The other problem area is when Junior is outside and Scotty is just inside the door watching.  Scotty will watch him then hunt/pounce on him like he's prey whenever Junior is playing and has his back turned - these are the serious fights where chunks of fur are taken out, almost exclusively from junior. 

Any other bad encounter, which is very rare, is purely accidental and always Junior freaking out for no reason and never ends in a fight - just the odd quick dominance display from Scotty being spooked by Junior's response to him and Scotty walking away.

I wish we had a room we could use for isolating them.  We live in a 2 bedroom apartment and the second bedroom is filled with books (6 double sacked bookshelves and then some) - the cats would spray all over them so we don't allow them in that room.  Keeping one isolated in our bedroom would be difficult - especially a vocal kitty like Scotty, he wakes us up frequently with his meowing as is... confined to a small space he'd be nuts.  We might try isolating Junior... the other kitties will hate it because the three of them sleep on the bed (Junior won't come past the top of the stairs most of the time )

I wonder if we can use our old rabbit enclosure (~1.4sqm/~15sqft) and place one inside and feed them as you suggest.  Feeding is something we're likely going to have to adjust.  As it is now they have unlimited access to food, one bowl on each floor and one outside that we keep filled.  We may need to change to scheduled feedings which is really too bad.  They've been really good about controlling their own food intake averaging about 50-60g/day each (~200-220 calories per day)

Off to watch some videos!

Le sigh.  Rough day.  Junior has been disappearing all day for the past few days and things got to a crisis point today.  He came back around dinner time and I took my food upstairs to work - within 30 seconds a major cat fight broke out and didn't stop.  I came down to find Scotty in front of Junior's box, a chunk of fur hanging out of his mouth, and scratches all through the lid of the box.  I get between them and just collapse, almost to tears - diarrhea everywhere in front of me (Scotty's antibiotics cleared up his URI but gave him the runs), Junior in his box reeking of fear urine, Scotty gagging on fur, and me with a horrible sunburn and a chunk out of my head from helping my parents with property maintenance they can't do anymore.  The burn has already started to peel.  Meanwhile, out of the blue I got a call from an IT recruiter, the first hint of a job for me since we moved to Toronto nearly 3 years ago, that I need to prepare for.

I honestly don't know how I'm still moving forward. 

It became clear that the problem isn't really Scotty - yes, he's attacking Junior, but it's really because Junior is inviting it.  All the other kitties get along great when Junior is not in the mix.  As a result I had to isolate him in our bedroom after the fight.  I made up a new litter box, which entailed setting up the aquarium to empty the bin of stones, brought a temporary bed & food, and cleaned up the mess Scotty made.  I couldn't focus on work anymore so I started watching 'My Cat From Hell' to learn what I could.  It seems we're doing a lot wrong and really just got lucky with being patient more than actually providing them with a good home, which explains the cubic meters of urine all over the walls.  Tonight is going to be sleepless as Scotty is desperate to get inside (currently clawing, headbutting, and crying to get in).  Tomorrow is getting more cleaning supplies, litter, and emptying out as much from the bedroom as possible to make a suitable environment for Junior to live for a while.  I'll be completely unprepared, exhausted, and will look like a damaged rotting tomato going into the recruitment meeting.  Hopefully I can salvage something out of it.

Sorry, Murphy gets to me sometimes, and I really needed to vent. 

You'll do fine tomorrow.  Try to get some sleep.  You may need to sleep on the couch downstairs to stop Scotty from trying to get into the bedroom.

Let us know how the interview goes.

I'm so sorry to hear that you're having a rough time.


This cage cost me about $100, but it's so useful. If you could get something like this you could cover it with a blanket and a waterproof sheet and have it outside, or just cover it with a sheet if you want Junior to be indoors but have some privacy.


Good luck at the job interview. I hope it all works out for you.

So...tomorrow is now today.  How did things go, Darlin?  Had you in my thoughts all day today. 

Don't kick yourself for doing things "wrong."  Half of cat psychology is guesswork and winging it, and you've been doing that.  And, for the most part, it has been working.  Now you have some different points of view that may help.  Don't mean you were wrong.  And doing one's best in trying circumstances is always to be applauded.

I pulled it out, just barely.

The wrong is that we've been going on the assumption that the peeing is scent marking/claiming territory.  Having binge watched 'My Cat From Hell' it's become very clear that this is stress spraying/anxiety/territorial insecurity.  Having isolated Junior things have calmed down completely.  Mama/Sissy/Scotty get along so much better with him out of the picture and the spraying is reduced.  We let Sissy into the bedroom to visit with Junior to see where things were at - she sprayed 4 times in less than a minute.  Junior is also doing a LOT better away from the other cats, he's not fearful, he's more social with us, and being more of a normal cat.  Today he was sleeping upside down playing with my foot while he was dreaming.

Obviously we can't keep him in a 12x10 room for the rest of his life, though he shows now desire to leave when the door is open.  We're not sure how to re-introduce him though.  He was learning from Mama (maybe not all good lessons but annoys him + Sissy to the point of anxiety and is prey to Scotty.  I think if it was just Scotty/Junior we could solve it but I'm not sure how to integrate him with all the cats at once.

We bought a bunch of toys to exhaust them all but they're completely ineffective on Junior.  He pauses for a minute here and there but just keeps going.  We tag teamed him for over an hour last night and could not get him tuckered out.

Edit:  Also, I haven't shared how extensive the spraying is.  This is after about 4 days without being able to clean and this is just 1 part of the entertainment unit, 1 window, and the kitchen.  It's like this on EVERY surface - including vertical ones (they'll jump up on the counter in the night and spray the backsplash, dishes, etc.), blinds, clothes... projectile off various chairs/stairs/etc all over the floor




Scotty showing off his handy work




It'll take us about 4-6 hours to clean up all this mess since we haven't been able to keep on top of it daily in the past few days.

I'm seeing something very good in your photo of the outside.  If you own/are buying your home, that patio could so easily be converted into a catio and this would probably be very helpful for your situation!  I'm not sure if it is possible to share other websites on TheCatSite but if it is, I have some pix up of catio and barn compound we built where we lived before, that gave our cats indoor/safe outdoor access.  You might look at Jackson Galaxy and Kate Benjamin's book, CATIFICATION, to see some ideas, or just  do an online search using your search engine for "catios".  If you're at all into DIY, you can probably build some kind of catio for not much money that will make your cats (and you) very happy. 

We rent and the fence is coming down this summer for structural repairs so nothing can happen until ~November.  They are indoor/outdoor cats - generally they'll go on walkabout for ~1 hour per day with the exception of Junior who is staying away out of fear. 

We have a garden, potter shelf, cat house, & 2 ramps planned as well as an indoor cat tree that will allow them to go from the couch, up to the top of the window, down along the sill, and back down to the ground which will allow them to travel 35% of the area off the ground.  They also have the stairs and second floor sills to use but we've found those to be 'spray' hotspots as well.  In one room it's all over the curtains, in the other (which they're no longer allowed in) it was all along the wall where the window is.  Our walls are plaster so we can't really hang anything that can support the weight of a cat.

Oh my god that IS intense spraying/peeing!!! You just went up a notch in "saintdom" in my world! Very few people who even consider themselves major "cat lovers" would deal with what you're dealing with with the spraying.

It's super late here - so I'm basing my input on posts I read quickly - so forgive me in advance for anything I missed or misconstrued as I offer just a tad bit of advice. Granted, since it's 3 am, skimming-based advice, so I'm not sure how good it will be

TO share a "we've been there" story------We had one cat that would soak - at least twice daily - the front, back and every reachable spot of an entertainment center...including all of the carpet in front of it and all of the albums (yes, I still have albums) and CDs inside. It was an heirloom Ikea piece made of rare pressed fiberboard....kidding! About everything but it being Ikea. So when we finally gave in and threw the whole unit away, we didn't feel quite as bad as we could have since the whole unit probably cost $99 total (the most distressing thing was the idea of having to use an allen wrench and 4,000 little pieces and a piece of my marriage to put another one together). We did know which cat was doing the spraying - although eventually others joined in the fun periodically on days Phoebe would "have her way with it." We ended up - as I said, getting rid of the old one, removing the carpet and soaking the bare floor with vinegar, which we then covered with plastic trapping, duct taped around the edges to seal it. We had to leave it tat way for something like a week? It did work - and did remove the scent entirely. I will say though, we not only removed the carpet and did the vinegar treatment, we also threw the unit away, recarpeted and also removed the "root cat" - Phoebe -  from the situation. She'd always been a very high-anxiety cat (overly attached to me - unhealthily so- taken way too young from her mother - etc etc). We tried everything - feliway in every form, kitty prozac, calming essences, etc before finally  relegating her to several rooms upstairs. It was several HUGE rooms - one of which was a our large master bedroom with a giant balcony - so she had time with me all to herself for hours a day - - and was actually much happier. To the point we ended up being able to take her off all medications. We were even able to let her roam the house eventually, but she always ended up back in the bedroom. She became a much happier cat knowing she "was the sole owner" a decent part of the house. She ended up living until almost 20 - with the happiest years being the latter ones when she didn't have to deal with "the rest of the feline riff raft."

Obviously I'm not suggesting you need to go to that far of a separation route - we were lucky in that we have a large enough old home that we could separate things off like that and still give everyone plenty of space. But I do wonder if it would help the spraying if you stay really consistent and slow with the introductions. I know we had a foster cat who was SO cat-aggressive txt he would have happily killed any of our cats at first sight. What helped was we fed on  the other sides of a screen door. We started him out waaaay for away from the screen door during feeding time - with the others on the other side also waaaay far away. We slowly moved all of the bowls closer together, and things seemed to be headed the right direction. Before we could finish the slow socialization - he was adopted. Despite my very vocal objections he went to a home with four other cats  one of them quite elderly and ill (at our house he really picked on the oldest, most infirm one - especially when she was sleeping.). But his adoptive mommy continued the slow intro - VERY slow intro. To the point he was not allowed into the room where the other cats were unless his new mom was present. She also worked very hard on a treat system, and teaching him "no." Now - almost 2 years later, all of her cats - including the "problem child" sleep with her in her bed overnight, and have become so bonded they all even groom each other. But it was slow going - and she used every trick in the book. So there is hope for a full "relationship recovery."

Lastly - did I (or anyone) ever bring up Scat Mats? I know some people would probably have a fit with me for suggesting them - but I've used them a few times and had great luck. Obviously they're not for everyone, every cat, or every situation. Haven't done it in ages - and again - only VERY rarely. I only used them in places where I was desperate to get a cat to understand a place was off limits (i.e., keeping them more than a foot away from the entertainment unit front so that they can't physically spray it. I set it only on the VERY lowest of charges - and always test it on myself. It just creates a very small (if set correctly) charge - a lot like a static "poke" you get when you grab socks out of the dryer (you can set it on higher - but that's just mean and doesn't teach the lesson any better). The idea is not to physically hurt them - but more to do two things - 1 - realize "hey" coming over here and doing what I usually do here is actually kind of annoying" and 2) it redirects their thought pattern, since it can become something they literally do out of habit as they walk by something.

Again - just a thought -and wouldn't recommend it in every situation by any means.

Keep posting - and hang in there. I still say you're a saint - - and deserve a statue of yourself in a local park!

Having Junior separated has definitely helped matters - his fear, teenage playfulness, and attempts to mate with Sissy were definitely contributing to the other cats anxiety.  Strangely Junior never learned to spray so he's not part of the problem.  We're reintroducing Scotty and Junior - since they could already tolerate each other to a degree we started with open sight lines and it worked pretty well. 

The territorial insecurity is what I don't know how to fix.  We've started blocking off the glass doors at night so they have to be up high to see when any other strays/animals come around, we have the cat tree planned (just needing to afford the wood to build it... tax refund!), though beyond that I really don't know how to make them feel safer.

Dunno right now.  However, I'm sitting here, cheering you on!  There is a very nice window film made for patio doors that you might try, you can google it, DC Fix static cling for windows.  As it is static cling, it won't leave a residue on the windows when removed, a plus for renters.

Ooo that sounds interesting...
DSH Black - very small


And I don't know what the heck this is... it has a dark tail, that it flattens as it runs away


This is a ghost cat... aka Sissy after rolling around in the fresh litter


Edit:  Oh and Scotty's rollercoster of medical issues continues.  Now that his diarrhea is clearing up his eye is gooping up again, this time the right eye first.