Disagreement with Vet

We just rescued a five-month-old kitten (Gizmo) almost two weeks ago.  After doing research on the site, and others, I decided that I wanted to put him on a canned food diet with mostly high quality brands.  When he came to us, he was on Pro-plan dry and various canned foods for dinner, so he was used to both.  As of now, we have gotten him used to three canned meals a day with kibble as only a treat.  Plus, we've switched kibble to Wellness.  Some of the canned brands we use are Merrick, Wellness,  Tiki Cat....

Anyway, during our first wellness check with the vet, she said that there is not evidence that wet food is any better than dry.  In fact, she feeds her cats a less reputable dry food.  She said that there is no "science" to back it up.  She wasn't pushy, saying I could do what I thought was best, but that I may be wasting money.

Gizmo is certainly healthy so far, and I thought I'd ask.  Does anyone else disagree with their vet on nutrition?  Would you switch vets if everything else is fine?  Is there "science" out there to prove that wet food is better?  Thanks!!

I've been curious myself about the scientific research on canned versus dried food, so I just searched for research papers on the subject.  I was only able to find one and it was from 2012, had a sample size of only 9 cats and concluded that more research was necessary.  That may reflect my poor searching skills more than anything else, however.

  I also looked at a couple of vet schools including Cornell University which has one of the top vet schools in the U.S.  Here is the link:  http://www.vet.cornell.edu/FHC/health_information/feeding.cfm  It's an interesting article but doesn't address one key element in the wet versus dry debate:  the effect of adequate hydration in preventing urinary tract problems.   All things else being equal, that alone would make me feed my cats at least a portion of canned food every day.  Another point comes to mind:  namely that cats fed an all dried food diet tend to be more obese than those fed a wet diet. 

I'm sure it is possible to get away with feeding some cats an all dry diet - I did until I learned better - but why take the risk if you can afford the wet?

As far as disagreeing with my vet on nutrition - I've read here and elsewhere that vets are not well trained in nutrition.  Although I haven't actually looked at the courses taught at vet school, it wouldn't surprise me since the same thing is true in medical schools.  So given that, I would prefer to do the research on my own and arrive at my own opinions. 

In terms of switching vets over this issue alone - if the vet was open to hearing my input on the subject and was otherwise an excellent and caring vet, I wouldn't switch.  If the vet had a more dogmatic approach, I'd switch.  However, if I had a cat with allergies and/or IBD, I would probably look for a feline specialist who was more knowledgeable in nutritional issues.

When Kitten was still a kitten I took all of her foods in with us and the vet who is a feline specialist said the most important ingredient on any wet food was the water, followed by protein and then the nutrients added that a house cat cannot access naturally.  Dry was fine if you had a cat that drank plenty of water. I believe she advised mixing water into the dry but it's been a long time. Vets work on the science available. I will say that on some level the pet food industry is playing into our fears and offering products that seem complete but are really just gold plated turds. It's like they look for the next cat food fad to suck us in.

your vet should be able to tell you how much protein your cat needs in a food which is the biggest variable and all cat foods should be nutritionally complete. It makes sense that feeding one that is complete with minimal garbage added would be the best choice. And one your cat will eat.

Unfortunately I think a lot of vets are not very well educated in nutrition. I managed to find a vet in my area who specialized her education in nutrition, and I feel very lucky! She agrees that canned food, low carb is best. She's also a great vet overall. If you feel like you can trust your vet in every area besides nutrition, I'd say stick with them, because it might be hard to find a vet who agrees with you about food.

Here are some scientific studies I managed to find about cat diets:

Water intake much higher and lower risk of CaOx (urinary crystals) for cats fed wet: http://journals.cambridge.org/actio...e=online&aid=8404201&fileId=S0007114511001875

Wet food promotes weight loss in cats: http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/ajvr.72.7.918

High protein diets promote fat loss: http://www.jarvm.com/articles/Vol3Iss2/LAFLAMME.pdf

High protein diets increase solubility of crystals: http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/8950426

Cats with diabetes were more likely to revert to non-insulin dependent state when fed low carb, low fiber food: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1098612X05001257

Recurrence of urinary tract issues is lowered with high moisture diets: http://jn.nutrition.org/content/128/12/2753S.short

Molly92 said:

 
Unfortunately I think a lot of vets are not very well educated in nutrition. I managed to find a vet in my area who specialized her education in nutrition, and I feel very lucky! She agrees that canned food, low carb is best. She's also a great vet overall. If you feel like you can trust your vet in every area besides nutrition, I'd say stick with them, because it might be hard to find a vet who agrees with you about food.

Here are some scientific studies I managed to find about cat diets:

Water intake much higher and lower risk of CaOx (urinary crystals) for cats fed wet: http://journals.cambridge.org/actio...e=online&aid=8404201&fileId=S0007114511001875

Wet food promotes weight loss in cats: http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/ajvr.72.7.918

High protein diets promote fat loss: http://www.jarvm.com/articles/Vol3Iss2/LAFLAMME.pdf

High protein diets increase solubility of crystals: http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/8950426

Cats with diabetes were more likely to revert to non-insulin dependent state when fed low carb, low fiber food: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1098612X05001257

Recurrence of urinary tract issues is lowered with high moisture diets: http://jn.nutrition.org/content/128/12/2753S.short

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These were the kinds of studies I was looking for, as well.  Great that you found them!

I simply put my cat on wet food because my vet said MOST cats get more moisture in their bodies through wet food, compared to dry. I want my cat to have a lot of fluids because I want to minimize his risk of uti's. Additionally, I simply have to worry less about a multitude of fillers in general when I give my cat high quality wet. 

Although I am no researcher in animal medicine or nutrition, I am a researcher in the social sciences (specifically psychology and behavior). I have not yet finished my PhD, but I am in the process. One thing is similar in all research, and that is the methods and limitations that one must be aware of. One huge problem in researching wet food versus dry food that really stands out to me is this: I feel that it would be extremely difficult to truly compare cats on wet food their entire lives to cats on dry food their entire lives, because of ethics, genetics, and the multitude of factors that play into a cat's health that are determined by their environment and daily socialization. 

In my opinion, in order to get a sound conclusion on this issue, you would have to get two cats with almost identical genes (ideally identical twins) and feed one dry food for its entire life, and the other wet food for its entire life. The wet food and dry food would have to be comparable in quality. The cats would also have to be raised in the exact same type of environment. Then, to rule out any outliers, you would have to repeat this study with different groups of cats of the same exact breed/ mix of breeds who have the same genes about 300 times to find a general trend and to rule out any outliers; this would take decades. See how difficult this would be? Not to mention slightly unethical since usually the only way to get animals of the exact same genetics is usually to buy them from companies who breed these special animals for scientific research (and animal testing), as well as for a profit. 

It seems right now that the easiest thing to do (but flawed) is to look at vet records of cats' health while taking their diet into consideration to see if there are any trends. Since the way each person cares for their cat varies tremendously and is not necessarily recorded in vet records, you can see how this would lead to confusion and uncertainty. Additionally, every cat they would be comparing would have different genetics. It would also explain why so many vets have mixed opinions. 

Sorry to go off on a research tangent! My POINT here is that you really have to decide on your own what you personally think seems logical. Definitely look at research, but look at a LOT of research and come to your own conclusion. My conclusion is that I think wet is better. But that's just me.  

My vet was pretty nonchalant about the whole feeding thing. I told her that they were on an all canned diet and she basically told me that they needed a high protein, low carb diet which I knew already.  I agree with @Molly92  about most "regular" vets not being very well educated about feline nutrition. 

Yes, vets do not get many nutrition classes in vet school. This coming from a good friend that is a vet, as well as a family member that is a vet as well. Additional nutrition info comes from reps from Hills, Royal Canin, Purina...

A lot of vets will feed the prescription foods or others by the same companies because they get the food at a reduced rate through a feeding program.

I think if your vet isn't pushy about what foods to feed, supports your decision, and practices good medicine otherwise, I'd continue using this vet.

Thank you, @Molly92, for the links to the studies!

And thank you, @GhibliTheCat, for what you say about research! As a former science writer (who wrote many articles about clinical trials for human medicines) I was also thinking about how there even could be real trials on wet v. dry cat foods. Like you say, it would be very difficult and ethically iffy.

My way around the lack of clinical trials is to trust cat specialists like our vet, as well as cat vets with Web sites, people like Dr. Pierson, and Dr. Jean Hofve: they all know cats very well and have seen a lot in their practices. Their conclusions may be anecdotal but, lacking true studies, they're the best I/we have. On a very anecdotal level, I can also compare our cats' new vet office to the clinic where we took our previous cat: the vets there were well-intentioned but didn't even know what to recommend for weight loss. On the other end of things, our cat vet apparently likes to do "the talk" about the importance of wet food with new clients: I missed it because I was already planning to feed our cats high-protein, low-carb wet foods before we adopted them! Our vet even recommended Dr. Pierson's catinfo.org site, which I'd already read.

To get back to the OP's questions, though. Do I disagree with the vet on nutrition? Yes, a little bit, about raw food (I think she's seen some bad situations, the sort of stuff that gives raw feeding a very bad name), though she's okay with foods that have been treated for bacteria. (Those will soon include Rad Cat so I guess now I can tell all. )

The big question, though, is would I switch if my vet were dismissive of wet food. Maybe I'm too cranky but at this point, yes, I think I would. In a sense, we did that: when we adopted our cats two years ago we started them right off with the cat specialist instead of our previous cat's clinic that didn't know about feline nutrition. I feel strongly about this for a lot of reasons. For one thing, I believe in the connection of good nutrition and good health, though I also realize that genetics plays a role in health and realize some cats live long, problem-free lives on grain-filled dry food. For another, I now realize how many signs the old clinic missed with Brooksie's health. (Unfortunately, when I started researching her symptoms, there just weren't as many cat health sites as there are now; this was in the early 2000s.) And it was beyond frustrating for us to be on our own in her last months, figuring out how to feed Brooksie when she had multiple health issues, some of which could have been prevented or at least slowed significantly if we and our vets (I still feel terrible about not knowing better) had been more informed about how to feed her properly. In the end, her last vet couldn't believe my non-prescription diet improved her kidney numbers and eased her IBD symptoms in her last months. I, though, wasn't surprised: I was feeding her based on what I learned from sites like Dr. Pierson's, Dr. Hofve's, and "Tanya's," about kidney cats.

End of rant! (I could go on and on and on about this!)

To end on a happy note: Congratulations on adopting Gizmo, @mjpeter! FWIW, I think you're doing the right thing for the little guy and Edwina and Ireland totally approve of feeding him Tiki!!  

The other thing to understand here is that your vets average client doesn't come and post on a cat forum about nutrition, doesn't read the resources and articles out there about cat nutrition. The fact that you're here asking the question already puts you in the top X% of cat caretakers. Vets run a business and have to appeal to their customers in some sense, and many of them... are less educated/responsible.

I believe in the link between food and health, and while it's not absolute (genetics/hereditary things can be out of our control) I can't see myself trusting a vet that doesn't share/support my understanding of nutrition. We currently have a vet that doesn't address nutrition but are seeing a vet tomorrow (and hopefully going forward) that supports raw feeding and quality food brands (primal, orijen, nulo) in addition to sensible pet care.

I did a LOT of online research on cat nutrition between the time I adopted Secret (12/17/15) and her first wellness visit to the vet (1/25/15). I had determined for myself that the best diet I would be able to provide (for my particular cat) would be wet, canned food, with occasional soft treats, and no dry food. I also decided to add extra water to the canned food, since cats have a low thirst drive, and Secret is prone to UTIs, particularly triggered by stress (hey, my cat and I -both- have anxiety disorders!)  I am not a vet or a cat nutritionist, so this was just what I personally believed would be best for us.

I was prepared to resist any suggestions from the vet for a diet of dry food, or expensive "prescription" diets. Lo and behold, my very laid-back (but loving) vet was not at all pushy, and agreed with me that wet is better for Secret, and since that's what I am doing anyway, to keep going like that. I did discuss with her what kind of oil would be best as an additive (for hairballs and/or constipation) and she recommended fish oil because cats are obligate carnivores & can't process plant-based oils well. This agreed with the research that I had done, so that was good. She also okay'ed my use of HomeoPet UTI drops at the first sign of a problem with Secret, or I could use saw palmetto. 

In my opinion, as long as your vet is not pushing you to change what you have decided is best for -your- cat, I wouldn't feel the need to change. 

When I was growing up, if you had a pet you just kinda fed it whatever you felt like, and there wasn't a lot of talk (or judgement) about it. Naturally we as a society have gained a great deal more knowledge since then, and as others have said, the very fact that you are paying attention to what might be nutritiously best for your cat puts you ahead of the game.

I am happy that Gizmo is healthy, and look forward to seeing more pictures of the little cutie!!!!

~mk

mjpeter said:

 
Gizmo is certainly healthy so far, and I thought I'd ask.  Does anyone else disagree with their vet on nutrition?  Would you switch vets if everything else is fine?  Is there "science" out there to prove that wet food is better?  Thanks!!

Click to expand...

You don't necessarily need to switch vets just because of a disagreement over food. Just feed what YOU feel is best for the cat and politely tell the vet that. Remember, it's YOUR cat and you make the decision on how to care for the cat in your own home. The vet cannot control what you feed. It's ok to disagree about food choice.

I feed raw and many vets don't like that. My vet has no problem at all with me feeding raw. He knows that I am a responsible pet owner who does a lot of research in various things concerning my pets' care. He always comments on how healthy my cats are at every check up visit.

At the vet office I work at the cats that come in blocked are almost always male, neutered, indoor cats on an all or mostly dry diet.  I have never seen one come in blocked on an all wet diet.  Maybe there isn't a lot of scientific evidence, but I will feed canned just to avoid that... it is worth it to avoid the problem!  

One of the vets I work with does encourage cat owners to feed wet, she says wet is always better than dry and even says she likes Fancy Feast Classics because of the low carbs.

In the end it is completely up to you what you feed though.    You will see a lot of vets that have different opinions on things, but it doesn't mean they are bad at what they do.  

Just to add a couple of things:

Someone mentioned in one of the wet food threads that it's important that the cat eats the food. When I was trying different wet foods with my kitty (she was eating only fishy ones, and I was looking for a land-based protein), she started vomiting pretty regularly. If there's one thing that I'm pretty sure kills the whole benefit of eating wet food, it'd be throwing it up afterward. I found a couple of wet foods she likes, and it'll do (at least for now). She gets both wet and dry.

And I keep an eye on her box. She kept knocking the cover off, so I just left it open. I can see her when she's going, and I can see if... everything's coming out okay in the end...

Like some of you mentioned, some cat health problems seemed very much to have to do with the food the cat ate. I just want to do the best I can. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Prevention can seem annoying, but obesity, diabetes, urine crystals... they're expensive, painful, and just bad.

Molly92 said:

 
Unfortunately I think a lot of vets are not very well educated in nutrition. I managed to find a vet in my area who specialized her education in nutrition, and I feel very lucky! She agrees that canned food, low carb is best. She's also a great vet overall. If you feel like you can trust your vet in every area besides nutrition, I'd say stick with them, because it might be hard to find a vet who agrees with you about food.

Here are some scientific studies I managed to find about cat diets:

Water intake much higher and lower risk of CaOx (urinary crystals) for cats fed wet: http://journals.cambridge.org/actio...e=online&aid=8404201&fileId=S0007114511001875

Wet food promotes weight loss in cats: http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/ajvr.72.7.918

High protein diets promote fat loss: http://www.jarvm.com/articles/Vol3Iss2/LAFLAMME.pdf

High protein diets increase solubility of crystals: http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/8950426

Cats with diabetes were more likely to revert to non-insulin dependent state when fed low carb, low fiber food: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1098612X05001257

Recurrence of urinary tract issues is lowered with high moisture diets: http://jn.nutrition.org/content/128/12/2753S.short

Click to expand...

Thank you so much for this information!!

I think we'll stay with this vet...I really like the office, and her individually, so I guess there's no reason to change.  She's happy to let us make our decisions regarding nutrition as long as he's healthy, so we're in good shape.

I also want to thank everyone who's helped us make good choices regarding Gizmo's nutritional needs.  Without all of you, he would most likely be on a much less healthy diet.

So if I understand correctly, the vet you saw is indifferent concerning feeding wet or dry.  IF that vet is competent and thorough in all other areas and instills confidence in you, then I would stay with her (him?  I think you said "her").  Do your due diligence, and feed what you feel is the correct food according to your understanding of current knowledge of cat nutrition.

I've tried for 7 years to get Hekitty on wet, to no avail.  However, Hekitty also sucks down water like a camel.  Evidently she  has never read the literature that describes low thirst drives in cats.  I even had her checked for diabetes, etc. due to her huge fluid intake.  She's healthy, she just drinks a lot.

Mamanyt1953 said:

 
So if I understand correctly, the vet you saw is indifferent concerning feeding wet or dry.  IF that vet is competent and thorough in all other areas and instills confidence in you, then I would stay with her (him?  I think you said "her").  Do your due diligence, and feed what you feel is the correct food according to your understanding of current knowledge of cat nutrition.

I've tried for 7 years to get Hekitty on wet, to no avail.  However, Hekitty also sucks down water like a camel.  Evidently she  has never read the literature that describes low thirst drives in cats.  I even had her checked for diabetes, etc. due to her huge fluid intake.  She's healthy, she just drinks a lot.

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Mook is the same. So is Mercy. Both prefer the dry. Maybe because of their high water intake the wet food is less appealing. ?

I dont agree with my vet over food either. When Benny had chronic diarrhea he recommended that i feed him iams kitten food. I couldnt feed him that junk and through trial and error now hes eating 100% raw with water added in. He never drinks water and im ok with it because i know hes plenty hydrated. My nemo on the other hand eats dry and wet. He barely drinks any water and it does worry me because he eats dry and should be drinking more water to compensate. Im not a genious but it makes sense to me that whatevers the closest to their natural diet of hydrated bloody meat is best. Its ok to disagree with your vet on this.