Petition: Don't force our children to skin cats

kittens mom

kittens mom

Kittens life was lost to a negligent veterinarian.
Top Cat
Joined
Aug 27, 2015
Messages
6,198
Purraise
3,964
Location
Moriarty, New Mexico
MoochNNoodles said:
 
I have dissected a cat (while a nursing student).  No it was not pleasant; but definitely have a better understanding of my cats anatomy for it  I talked with someone about my feelings and she said to look at it as learning from this cat would help me help other cats.  So my lab partner (my BFF) and I did what we had to do.  I eventually changed majors; but it did turn out to be helpful in understanding the girls anatomy in the various health issues they have encountered over the years.  It was also different than I expected.  I think I just pushed the thought that it was a cat to the side and focused on the assignment.  

I don't see why a high school level course has to use them vs another animal.  I don't believe my high school used anything other than pigs, a squid and mice; but I chose not to take that class (an advanced placement class).  That being said; there really is something different about learning with a specimen vs an illustration (computer or otherwise).  I just don't see the need for it to be a cat at that educational level.  If the course were one that gives college credit (some do) then yes I could see more advanced dissections such as this being included even though it is in a high school. 

We used a number of preserved specimens in the courses I took.  Our frogs were live and then released to an appropriate location.  I couldn't tell you if the anatomy of a fetal pig vs a cat is comparable to human anatomy.   As much as the thought of dissections is unpleasant; there is a place for it in education.  I found when facing the specimens; it was much less emotionally involved than I expected.  The only difficult one was the cat; probably because I was the only "whole" animal used.  Otherwise there was no emotional connection.  Being a nursing student; I was sure I would encounter much worse in the real world.  
Click to expand...
having a basic understanding of the biology of an actual specimen is not out of order. I have seen the necropsy of numerous horses and I would not advise it for the weak of heart or stomach. I can see the need for someone in a vet/nursing field to not only understand anatomy but overcome the rather natural revulsion of dealing with the inside anatomy of a human/animal. The fetal pig pushes a child to face something new. learn and address fears on some level. All of those are beneficial in their own right. It was a right of passage in some aspects in science class. Understanding basic biology and how and what the organs are for is a far cry from a college student that has to learn not only what they do but the feel , texture and how to manipulate and recognize different tissue and abnormalities in that organ/system. This experience can also ignite an interest in pursing a field in medicine for some children. We don't want to PC ourselves to death over this aspect of learning. Just make sure it does more good than harm.
 
Kat0121

Kat0121

TCS Member
Veteran
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
15,049
Purraise
20,381
Location
Sunny Florida
Kittens Mom said:
 
having a basic understanding of the biology of an actual specimen is not out of order. I have seen the necropsy of numerous horses and I would not advise it for the weak of heart or stomach. I can see the need for someone in a vet/nursing field to not only understand anatomy but overcome the rather natural revulsion of dealing with the inside anatomy of a human/animal. The fetal pig pushes a child to face something new. learn and address fears on some level. All of those are beneficial in their own right. It was a right of passage in some aspects in science class. Understanding basic biology and how and what the organs are for is a far cry from a college student that has to learn not only what they do but the feel , texture and how to manipulate and recognize different tissue and abnormalities in that organ/system. This experience can also ignite an interest in pursing a field in medicine for some children. We don't want to PC ourselves to death over this aspect of learning. Just make sure it does more good than harm.
Click to expand...
If the class had gone a field trip to witness an autopsy of a human, say a "Jane or John Doe", parents would riot. What if the human were a baby that was found dumped in a trash can and could not be identified? This would be more in tune with a class on human anatomy than dissecting a cat that already suffered the indignation of being PTS because there was no room at the shelter. Having a teenager dissect a household pet who wasn't fortunate enough to have found a home can be extremely traumatizing. This would NEVER be done to a dog. This is not about being PC. This is about people treating cats as if they are disposable. Again, these are not veterinary students or pre med students. They are high school students. A fetal pig pushes a child to learn something new?? What are they learning? How horrifically cruel humans are to animals? 
 
kittens mom

kittens mom

Kittens life was lost to a negligent veterinarian.
Top Cat
Joined
Aug 27, 2015
Messages
6,198
Purraise
3,964
Location
Moriarty, New Mexico
Kat0121 said:
 
If the class had gone a field trip to witness an autopsy of a human, say a "Jane or John Doe", parents would riot. What if the human were a baby that was found dumped in a trash can and could not be identified? This would be more in tune with a class on human anatomy than dissecting a cat that already suffered the indignation of being PTS because there was no room at the shelter. Having a teenager dissect a household pet who wasn't fortunate enough to have found a home can be extremely traumatizing. This would NEVER be done to a dog. This is not about being PC. This is about people treating cats as if they are disposable. Again, these are not veterinary students or pre med students. They are high school students. A fetal pig pushes a child to learn something new?? What are they learning? How horrifically cruel humans are to animals? 
Click to expand...
I think you totally misunderstood my post. I'm 100% against using what we consider a household pet as a dissection specimen in a high school setting. And yes. The actual physical dissection of a fetal pit or frog can be used to teach how things live . Not how they die.  You mistake my reasoning with agreeing with dissection in a HS setting at all.  For some children this is the beginning of their quest to help things live. It should not be forced or allowed without parental consent. As to the cats I believe I have left my soapbox on more than one thread about the way society and most animal control personnel view them. Which is often somewhere lower than the common sewer rat. I have twice mentioned on this thread that if it was a cooler of dead puppies there would be a national outcry. Bag of dead cats. Eh finally found a good use for a cat. I have no idea why there is such a disparity between the two most loved household pets. Almost 4 decades of trying to help animals has left me a bit more realistic and analytical. I'm probably not going to be able to stop dissection in a HS biology class. I might help stop the use of cats as the specimen.
 
W

Willowy

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Mar 1, 2009
Messages
31,895
Purraise
28,303
Location
South Dakota
I looked up Carolina Supply (a popular school science supply company) and they do sell preserved dogs for dissection. It does not specify where they got the dogs :/ (they could be laboratory Beagles). The dogs do cost considerably more than the cats, probably this keeps them from being as popular in high school settings. They also have mink (skinned, of course, because they're raised for fur), rabbits, and rats/mice.

I feel like the big issue is unwanted animals being killed, not what happens to them after they're dead. If someone can find a use for the dead bodies, that's better than wasting them. And, personally, I wouldn't object to a high-school age kid watching a human autopsy/dissection, as long as he/she felt like they could handle it. It's happening anyway, someone might as well get an education out of it.
 
Kat0121

Kat0121

TCS Member
Veteran
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
15,049
Purraise
20,381
Location
Sunny Florida
Kittens Mom said:
 
Petition is a little over halfway there. if someone belongs to another cat site perhaps it can be cross posted.
Click to expand...
I got an email back from PETA. From their reply, it seems as though they weren't aware of it and are now looking into it. 
 
Mamanyt1953

Mamanyt1953

Rules my home with an iron paw
Staff Member
Forum Helper
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
31,320
Purraise
68,267
Location
North Carolina
Went back and shared on FaceBook.  I am a member of several cat fanpages, two cat rescue/transport groups, and cheezepeepsonfayzebuk.  That's a huge group of cat worshippers.  I'll check in a few, and if it didn't post, I'll redo it till it does!
 
Mamanyt1953

Mamanyt1953

Rules my home with an iron paw
Staff Member
Forum Helper
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
31,320
Purraise
68,267
Location
North Carolina
Well, it took four tries, but I FINALLY got the thing posted.  Now let's wait for all my kitteh obsessed friends to read, sign, and pass along!
 
C

catsrawezome

TCS Member
Kitten
Joined
Jan 9, 2016
Messages
2
Purraise
1
I have a very important message for those of you signing this petition. I go to this high school. The class in which students are asked to dissect cats - Honors Anatomy - is an elective. Furthermore, students are allowed to (and many do) complete an alternative assignment. In no way are they being forced to dissect cats. They are not even required to be in the same room as the dissections. Also, the cats being used for dissection were not killed to be used for dissection. Unfortunately, cats do die, and there is no reason to use those cats that have already died to teach students about the anatomy of a mammal. 
 
Mamanyt1953

Mamanyt1953

Rules my home with an iron paw
Staff Member
Forum Helper
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
31,320
Purraise
68,267
Location
North Carolina
catsrawezome said:
 
I have a very important message for those of you signing this petition. I go to this high school. The class in which students are asked to dissect cats - Honors Anatomy - is an elective. Furthermore, students are allowed to (and many do) complete an alternative assignment. In no way are they being forced to dissect cats. They are not even required to be in the same room as the dissections. Also, the cats being used for dissection were not killed to be used for dissection. Unfortunately, cats do die, and there is no reason to use those cats that have already died to teach students about the anatomy of a mammal. 
Click to expand...
I am glad that you are not forced to dissect or to be in the room with the dissection.  This is, however, not the norm.  Many, many students are required to dissect before graduating, regardless of their feelings.  The virtual dissection programs are far more educational, as there is no problem with poorly performed proceedures, etc.  All systems are displayed in optimum condition.  They are available, and make in-house dissections obsolete.  They're even far more cost-effective for school systems, who can buy one virtual dissection and reuse for years, rather than purchasing cadavers annually, or biannually.  It just isn't necessary any more, so why do it?
 
C

catsrawezome

TCS Member
Kitten
Joined
Jan 9, 2016
Messages
2
Purraise
1
Mamanyt1953 said:
 
I am glad that you are not forced to dissect or to be in the room with the dissection.  This is, however, not the norm.  Many, many students are required to dissect before graduating, regardless of their feelings.  The virtual dissection programs are far more educational, as there is no problem with poorly performed proceedures, etc.  All systems are displayed in optimum condition.  They are available, and make in-house dissections obsolete.  They're even far more cost-effective for school systems, who can buy one virtual dissection and reuse for years, rather than purchasing cadavers annually, or biannually.  It just isn't necessary any more, so why do it?
Click to expand...
I can say nothing about how other school systems do dissections. It is wrong that students are forced to do something that truly bothers and hurts them in a school, a supposed safe place. 
 
Margret

Margret

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Jul 17, 2014
Messages
6,506
Purraise
8,935
Location
Littleton, CO
Willowy said:
I think everybody should be allowed to opt out of dissection if they prefer. That's not something anyone should be forced to do. But I don't see a problem with dissecting cats. They are killed in shelters because nobody wants them, might as well get some use out of the body. I hope the teacher at least explains that the cats were killed because of human irresponsibility. That would be a pretty good lesson.
Click to expand...
They don't just use euthanized shelter cats. There are suppliers who specialize in providing cats for dissection, and some of them aren't very ethical. They will cruise the streets looking for outdoor cats, and when they find one they don't much care if it has a tag. (This is one of the reasons indoor cats live longer.)

I had to dissect a cat in H.S. biology class over forty years ago. I protested and was ignored — it was required. The one I dissected was pregnant; I found the kittens, almost full term. Someone had injected red and blue rubber into the blood vessels to make it easy to tell the arteries from the veins.

And what important biology lessons did I learn from this experience? That some people are cruel, and that formaldehyde gives me a headache.

Margret
 
kittens mom

kittens mom

Kittens life was lost to a negligent veterinarian.
Top Cat
Joined
Aug 27, 2015
Messages
6,198
Purraise
3,964
Location
Moriarty, New Mexico
Mamanyt1953 said:
 
I am glad that you are not forced to dissect or to be in the room with the dissection.  This is, however, not the norm.  Many, many students are required to dissect before graduating, regardless of their feelings.  The virtual dissection programs are far more educational, as there is no problem with poorly performed proceedures, etc.  All systems are displayed in optimum condition.  They are available, and make in-house dissections obsolete.  They're even far more cost-effective for school systems, who can buy one virtual dissection and reuse for years, rather than purchasing cadavers annually, or biannually.  It just isn't necessary any more, so why do it?
Click to expand...
After doing a lot of reading on this subject I agree with you on this. In a HS setting there is no need for cadaver use and in fact if a virtual dissection would then be available to all students even if they were not in an advanced program.  The YouTube of the students making fun with their dead cats doesn't particularly disturb me because that is the kind of behavior to expect from a brain that is not quite fully developed yet. But it is an absolute indicator that children are not ready for the full spectrum or what they are doing let alone being able to respect the cat as a once living being.

Force is a relative term if the consequences mean not being able to fulfill needed credits to get into some college programs or lose the ability to apply for a scholarship. It might be the young girl for whom this petition was started is not suited for her current career goals. Or more likely she's simply maturing at a slower rate.
 
Mamanyt1953

Mamanyt1953

Rules my home with an iron paw
Staff Member
Forum Helper
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
31,320
Purraise
68,267
Location
North Carolina
Realizing that there is a huge gap between "ought to be" and "is," simply given the fact that there are some wonderful virtual dissection tools available and that they are more cost-effective in the long run, I just don't understand why there should be any need for an actual dissection until after obtaining an A.A or A.S., and then only if you are seeking a higher degree in a biological science of some sort.  God knows a geologist has no need to know how to dissect anything more organic than coal.  And an architect doesn't even need that.
 
mollyblue

mollyblue

TCS Member
Super Cat
Joined
Jul 28, 2015
Messages
803
Purraise
168
I am against High School students dissecting companion animals.  Even against the dissection of frogs and worms in a required class.  There are a few students who may walk away with a wealth of knowledge from the activity, but most of them will gain very little from the experiment. 

Coming at this from a different angle, if the student's were caught skinning and disscecting cats, outside of a science class, officials would say very different things about this indeed. "Serial Killers start with animals".  stuff like that.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top