Canned/Freeze Dried Raw.... Litter box and Puking Issues.

paiger8 · Dec 30, 2015

Hi All! I have a smelly litter box issue...

My two cats are currently on 50% Wellness Grain Free Canned, 50% Freeze Dried Raw… mostly Primal, but I did add in Stella & Chewy’s Duck Duck Goose a few weeks ago when I ran out of Primal. They also get a tiny bit (like 15-20 pieces each) of Merrick LID Turkey kibble before bed. It keeps them from waking me up at 5am.

The food is all pretty good quality, no grains, corn etc. The thing is… their litter box still stinks. Not like “Duck and run for cover!” bad, but to the point where walking down the stairs to the basement within 20 minutes of a “deposit” I’m like, “Someone pooped!” My boy also doesn’t cover his poop super well, so that doesn’t help. Once it dries, the smell dissipates to the point that you can walk in the room where the litter boxes are and not know there are litter boxes. So at least it’s not a constant smell. But I have a finished basement, and that’s where my TV is, so I spend a lot of time down there with friends watching movies… and you can smell from the living room when a cat poops. Obviously this is unpleasant and a little embarrassing.

I will add, poop is normal and firm. Not soft/runny so I don’t think it’s really a food sensitivity issue. They also aren’t gassy at all.

I’m guessing this is unrelated... but I have had a few puking incidences lately, but it doesn’t seem to be related to one particular food. My male threw up about 1.5 hours after eating Primal last night, which he’s previously eaten with no problems. Is this normal? I think he may just be a puker. It’s usually only once a week. They are long hair, so I get a few hairballs a month as well, usually the hairballs lessen with brushing.

So advice please…

Am I expecting too much in regard to poop smell? Does all poop stink for a little while? I've never had a cat on just FD Raw and canned before, so I don't know how much smell is "normal."
Cut out the tiny bit of kibble? Can that small of amount really do much?
Cut out the canned and feed 100% FD raw? It’d only be $25-30 more per month to cut out canned and feed all FD Raw. I’m fine with that if it would eliminate the smell.
Move the litter boxes further from the door and live with it?
Throwing up once a week normal for some cats? I've never had a cat that throws up before. Pretty small amounts of puke, never right after eating.

Thanks in advance! I realize this post is kind of all over the place with nutrition/raw/health.... I wasn't sure where to post it. Feel free to move it Mods if there's a better place!

missmimz · Dec 30, 2015

I'm not really convinced that you can achieve zero little box odor with a perfect raw diet. You could try and see if you see any improvement, but poo is poo, it'll smell either way, I think. I'm not sure if doing all FD raw would actually make the poo not smelly, like they say with doing an all raw homemade diet. Although I've never fed 100% raw, so I can't say for sure. You could try mixing some probiotics in their food daily to see if that helps. Probiotics make a big difference in my cats smelly poo.

As for the vomiting, I don't think it's "normal" for any cat to vomit often, but some cats have digestive issues which trigger vomiting (Like IBD). Is he scarfing and barfing? I would probably keep an eye out and see if you can find a pattern, maybe the Primal isn't agreeing with him.

Columbine · Dec 30, 2015

I feed high meat wet food with a little kibble, and my guys' poop is just the same as you describe - you can smell it when it's fresh, but once it's dried the smell goes.

I honestly think that totally odour-free poop is an unrealistic expectation.

With the puking - it definitely ISN'T normal, not even for a long haired cat. I'd want to get him checked by a vet to be sure his digestive system is working properly.

lisamarie12 · Dec 30, 2015

It really depends regarding stool odor. I'm also not sure it can be entirely eliminated. I had both of my cats on commercial raw only for about two months earlier this year (Primal), and the odor was greatly reduced.

The odor could be caused by any number of issues, an ingredient intolerance or something health related. There is a wonderful short video, btw, on this subject via You Tube, "The Poop Question".

Maybe an ingredient(s) in one of the foods doesn't agree with the cats, too much starch perhaps, carrageenan maybe. I have used both S&C's turkey as well as Duck, Duck Goose and while on the latter my cats' poo was smellier - duck really just doesn't agree with either of my cats but more so with my IBD cat.

I'd be concerned about your one cat that vomits once a week, that's not normal.

I think if I were in your situation I'd look for very simple and minimal ingredients, whether it's all raw or a combo of raw and canned.

I like Primal but I have since replaced Primal with Rad Cat (and occasionally S&C's FD) along with a carrageenan-free, low carb canned food.

To prevent getting that universal 5 am cat wake up call

for the past several years I have fed the cats their last supper around 10-10:30 pm (in addition to an earlier dinner) and then they sleep through the night.

Good luck.

lisamarie12 · Dec 30, 2015

And I agree also with missmimiz: a good probiotic can really help.

PushPurrCatPaws · Dec 30, 2015

Paiger8 said:
Hi All! I have a smelly litter box issue... ara2:

My two cats are currently on 50% Wellness Grain Free Canned, 50% Freeze Dried Raw… mostly Primal, but I did add in Stella & Chewy’s Duck Duck Goose a few weeks ago when I ran out of Primal. They also get a tiny bit (like 15-20 pieces each) of Merrick LID Turkey kibble before bed. ...

Several of the freeze dried raw formulas have a bit more fiber in them than you might see in some canned foods.

High(er) amounts of fiber can cause stinky poos.

The Primal freeze-dried Feline Beef & Salmon Formula has 3% fiber.
The FD Feline Pork formula and Turkey formula have 2% fiber each.
The FD Chicken just has a more normal 1% fiber.

(I am not sure of the amount of fiber in the version of Wellness you are using, but you might check. The combo of the FD and the Wellness could be adding a bit too much fiber into your kitteh for his tummy comfort. I try to limit my kitty's fiber to 1.0-1.5% daily, or less, if possible.)

As you see, many freeze dried formulas also have a variety of other ingredients in them, too. Your kitty could be reacting to one or any of those, as LisaMarie12 mentions. And it being a raw food, you still have to take care in storing it properly (as air- and water- tight as possible) so that (bad) bacteria does not grow.

paiger8 · Dec 31, 2015

missmimz said:
You could try mixing some probiotics in their food daily to see if that helps. Probiotics make a big difference in my cats smelly poo.

How much probiotic do you dose per cat? Half a pill per day? More? I'm definitely open to trying it.

LisaMarie12 said:
Maybe an ingredient(s) in one of the foods doesn't agree with the cats, too much starch perhaps, carrageenan maybe. I have used both S&C's turkey as well as Duck, Duck Goose and while on the latter my cats' poo was smellier - duck really just doesn't agree with either of my cats but more so with my IBD cat.

I'd be concerned about your one cat that vomits once a week, that's not normal.

I think if I were in your situation I'd look for very simple and minimal ingredients, whether it's all raw or a combo of raw and canned.

I like Primal but I have since replaced Primal with Rad Cat (and occasionally S&C's FD) along with a carrageenan-free, low carb canned food.

Duck and goose are fattier (in real food) so I wonder if that is what's making the poo smellier. I just really wanted to add a 3rd protein since they eat a lot of chicken & turkey. And they don't seem to be giant beef fans.

I've just heard that really good food equals 0 litter box odor. I'm probably just expecting too much. Poop stinks.

I was thinking about it and the puking is only at night, which is when they get Freeze Dried Raw. They get canned in the morning, and he's never thrown that up. I also gave him a TINY sample of Rat Cat a couple months ago, and he immediately threw that up. It was like a gelatinous little pile of raw. GROSS.

I'm wondering if raw just doesn't totally agree with him, which would be a shame, because they both love it and eat it so well.

PushPurrCatPaws · Dec 31, 2015

Paiger8 said:
missmimz said:

You could try mixing some probiotics in their food daily to see if that helps. Probiotics make a big difference in my cats smelly poo.

Click to expand...

How much probiotic do you dose per cat? Half a pill per day? More? I'm definitely open to trying it.

Duck and goose are fattier (in real food) so I wonder if that is what's making the poo smellier. ...

I was thinking about it and the puking is only at night, which is when they get Freeze Dried Raw. ...

----

If you are feeding them the freeze dried raw of Duck Duck Goose, I believe that already has some fermentation products (probiotics?) within it... just FYI
https://www.stellaandchewys.com/products/cat-dinners/duck-duck-goose/freeze-dried/

"...Dried Pediococcus Acidilactici Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium Longum Fermentation Product ..."

lisamarie12 · Dec 31, 2015

Paiger8 said:
Duck and goose are fattier (in real food) so I wonder if that is what's making the poo smellier. I just really wanted to add a 3rd protein since they eat a lot of chicken & turkey. And they don't seem to be giant beef fans.

I've just heard that really good food equals 0 litter box odor. I'm probably just expecting too much. Poop stinks.

I was thinking about it and the puking is only at night, which is when they get Freeze Dried Raw. They get canned in the morning, and he's never thrown that up. I also gave him a TINY sample of Rat Cat a couple months ago, and he immediately threw that up. It was like a gelatinous little pile of raw. GROSS.

I'm wondering if raw just doesn't totally agree with him, which would be a shame, because they both love it and eat it so well.

That's interesting about goose being fatty as well, I didn't know that - thank you, now it really makes sense why DDG didn't agree with my IBD girl.

When you give the FD raw, you are re-hydrating right? I know some people give it dry as a snack but it is so powdery it can cause a gag / nausea reaction (or at least this is what I've heard from a few customers who feed Primal at the store and give it dry to their dogs, it's rare, but it happens). But again, it could be that maybe the veggies / fruits in Primal are too much for your kitties.

Also, re: RC when it you sampled it and your kitty threw up, was the food cold? Cold food sometimes causes this reaction, it has happened with my Mikey and RC so what I do is after RC has thawed in the refrig, I add a few drops of warm water so it's not so cold. Although you said it was a tiny sample of RC .... some people run warm water over RC inside a Zip Lock bag to take the chill off. Cold food can cause vomiting.

Did you have any problem with stinky poo when you were only feeding the Wellness canned and no raw?

It's going to be a process of elimination and may take time to figure out.

Maybe consider starting anew: eliminate raw for a few days and then start again with very small amounts, maybe along with the the canned?

lisahe · Dec 31, 2015

Am I expecting too much in regard to poop smell? Does all poop stink for a little while? I've never had a cat on just FD Raw and canned before, so I don't know how much smell is "normal."

I'm sure it varies by cat but I guess I feel lucky that our cats' box area smells more barn-like than poopy after they use the box. I'm not quite sure how to explain that! I can't say it's a lovely smell but it's usually kind of neutral instead of noxiously poopy, if you know what I mean, and what smell there is dissipates fast. We feed about 60% raw, the rest canned. The cats' poop production also isn't very big, despite their prodigious consumption. I count myself lucky that we've found foods that agree so well with the cats' systems.

Cut out the tiny bit of kibble? Can that small of amount really do much?

Well, you know me

so this is probably pretty predictable: I looked at the Merrick kibble ingredients, saw potatoes and peas in two forms each, so would definitely (definitely!) try cutting the kibble first. After seeing how much even a tiny amount of Weruva food with potato starch affected Edwina, I can say for sure that it doesn't take much of a problem ingredient to bother a cat! Personally, I'd try cutting the kibble for a week or two and see if that helps before cutting out the canned or the raw. Another reason I'd suspect the kibble first: you said the kibble and the puking are both at night. Or is the puking earlier? (I'm not sure about the chronology of "night" and "before bed"!)

Throwing up once a week normal for some cats? I've never had a cat that throws up before. Pretty small amounts of puke, never right after eating.

I agree with the others: it's not normal. A couple other thoughts on vomiting: Edwina also has "issues" if she eats too much or too fast, or is too active shortly after a meal: this has occasionally resulted in her vomiting up a huge mound of Primal (which she loves and tends to gulp down) an hour or two after the meal. Ever since we've been feeding the cats separately, this usually seems to be linked to her having eaten too fast and/or running around after her meal. Or even--and this is my fault--to my feeding them later than usual in the evening. Her stomach tends to get acidic and rumbly if she gets too hungry so I guess that affects her digestion.

It really isn't easy to feed cats, is it!? I can't believe the number of factors that go into how, when, and what we feed our two. Here's hoping you're able to figure things out soon for yours! And here's to a less smelly 2016, no matter what the cause!

paiger8 · Dec 31, 2015

LisaMarie12 said:
That's interesting about goose being fatty as well, I didn't know that - thank you, now it really makes sense why DDG didn't agree with my IBD girl.

When you give the FD raw, you are re-hydrating right? I know some people give it dry as a snack but it is so powdery it can cause a gag / nausea reaction (or at least this is what I've heard from a few customers who feed Primal at the store and give it dry to their dogs, it's rare, but it happens). But again, it could be that maybe the veggies / fruits in Primal are too much for your kitties.

Also, re: RC when it you sampled it and your kitty threw up, was the food cold? Cold food sometimes causes this reaction, it has happened with my Mikey and RC so what I do is after RC has thawed in the refrig, I add a few drops of warm water so it's not so cold. Although you said it was a tiny sample of RC .... some people run warm water over RC inside a Zip Lock bag to take the chill off. Cold food can cause vomiting.

Did you have any problem with stinky poo when you were only feeding the Wellness canned and no raw?

It's going to be a process of elimination and may take time to figure out.

Maybe consider starting anew: eliminate raw for a few days and then start again with very small amounts, maybe along with the the canned?

Yes, rehydrating the FD raw.

I prefer them to get as much moisture as possible in their diets.

And yes, the Rad Cat was cold. I thawed it in the fridge and then just dumped it in his bowl. That's super interesting, I didn't know cold food could cause that reaction. My local store had free RC samples in their freezer, so I grabbed one to try. After he had that reaction, I've never tried actual commercial frozen raw again. FD is just easier for me also.

I honestly can't say that I noticed their poo smell until recently. I actually had people over to my house last weekend, and one of the cats pooped while we were watching a movie. I think it's one of those things that just wasn't on my radar until I was with other people and smelled it.

It can't remember if it was smelly on just the canned or not. I can cut out the raw for a week or so and see if their poop smell (and his puking) improves. I just hate to do it, because my dainty girl prefers the FD Raw and it's the only thing she eats really well. I'm actually at the bottom of the bag of DDG so I'll eliminate that for awhile as well.

I honestly just may be expecting too much with the poop smell. I can probably move the litter boxes further back in the furnace room also, so it's further away from the couch/TV. Was considering an air purifier as well for the litter box room, but filters are stupid expensive.

lisamarie12 · Dec 31, 2015

Paiger8 said:
It can't remember if it was smelly on just the canned or not. I can cut out the raw for a week or so and see if their poop smell (and his puking) improves. I just hate to do it, because my dainty girl prefers the FD Raw and it's the only thing she eats really well. I'm actually at the bottom of the bag of DDG so I'll eliminate that for awhile as well.
I honestly just may be expecting too much with the poop smell. I can probably move the litter boxes further back in the furnace room also, so it's further away from the couch/TV. Was considering an air purifier as well for the litter box room, but filters are stupid expensive.

Have you considered SC's FD turkey? That might be an option if you resume with the FD raw.

Sure, you can move the litter boxes, get an air purifier, etc., however, you want to get to the root of what is causing the stinky poo, otherwise you're just dealing with the symptoms.

As far as poo smell, one person's aversion to an odor may not be so bad to another, it really depends but I don't think it should be so strong as to clear the room of people.

paiger8 · Dec 31, 2015

LisaHE said:
Well, you know me

so this is probably pretty predictable: I looked at the Merrick kibble ingredients, saw potatoes and peas in two forms each, so would definitely (definitely!) try cutting the kibble first. After seeing how much even a tiny amount of Weruva food with potato starch affected Edwina, I can say for sure that it doesn't take much of a problem ingredient to bother a cat! Personally, I'd try cutting the kibble for a week or two and see if that helps before cutting out the canned or the raw. Another reason I'd suspect the kibble first: you said the kibble and the puking are both at night. Or is the puking earlier? (I'm not sure about the chronology of "night" and "before bed"!)

I agree with the others: it's not normal. A couple other thoughts on vomiting: Edwina also has "issues" if she eats too much or too fast, or is too active shortly after a meal: this has occasionally resulted in her vomiting up a huge mound of Primal (which she loves and tends to gulp down) an hour or two after the meal. Ever since we've been feeding the cats separately, this usually seems to be linked to her having eaten too fast and/or running around after her meal. Or even--and this is my fault--to my feeding them later than usual in the evening. Her stomach tends to get acidic and rumbly if she gets too hungry so I guess that affects her digestion.

It really isn't easy to feed cats, is it!? I can't believe the number of factors that go into how, when, and what we feed our two. Here's hoping you're able to figure things out soon for yours! And here's to a less smelly 2016, no matter what the cause!

Hahahah, I knew you were going to say something about potato.

The funny thing is, I checked the canned food for potato, but not the kibble. Good catch! I'll cut it out first, and maybe give them a tiny bit of canned before bed instead.

The Turkey flavored Wellness does have Sweet Potato, is that a different kind of starch? And the puking is an hour or so after eating FD Raw. The kibble is 11pm-ish, before I go to bed. All the puke has been FD raw. Now that you mention it, he was running around playing after eating this last time, so it could just be that. I actually had guests over from California, and they walk in the door and he immediately threw up on the couch where he was laying. He looked pretty proud of himself too.

lisamarie12 · Dec 31, 2015

LisaHE said:
I'm sure it varies by cat but I guess I feel lucky that our cats' box area smells more barn-like than poopy after they use the box. I'm not quite sure how to explain that! I can't say it's a lovely smell but it's usually kind of neutral instead of noxiously poopy,

LOl - barn-like!

paiger8 · Dec 31, 2015

LisaMarie12 said:
Have you considered SC's FD turkey? That might be an option if you resume with the FD raw.

Sure, you can move the litter boxes, get an air purifier, etc., however, you want to get to the root of what is causing the stinky poo, otherwise you're just dealing with the symptoms.

As far as poo smell, one person's aversion to an odor may not be so bad to another, it really depends but I don't think it should be so strong as to clear the room of people.

I haven't tried the SC's FD Turkey yet. I loved Primal just since the nuggets are super easy to measure, and I could never figure out exactly how much of the SC's to feed. But I'm open to trying that.

And it's not like clear a room, but you can definitely smell when one of them poops. But it's no where near as bad as when I adopted them from the shelter, where they were on a mix of cheap kibble. The smell does go away 100% after it dries though. I honestly might be overthinking this. I think all poop has to smell a bit when it's fresh.

lisamarie12 · Dec 31, 2015

Paiger8 said:
I haven't tried the SC's FD Turkey yet. I loved Primal just since the nuggets are super easy to measure, and I could never figure out exactly how much of the SC's to feed. But I'm open to trying that.

And it's not like clear a room, but you can definitely smell when one of them poops. But it's no where near as bad as when I adopted them from the shelter, where they were on a mix of cheap kibble. The smell does go away 100% after it dries though. I honestly might be overthinking this. I think all poop has to smell a bit when it's fresh.

When I have used SC's FD I just measure with a measuring cup. It may not be as exact as Primal nuggets, but close enough.

I have a feeling you may see a difference w/o SC's DDG ....

PushPurrCatPaws · Dec 31, 2015

LisaMarie12 said:
...

I have a feeling you may see a difference w/o SC's DDG ....

Me too.

lisahe · Dec 31, 2015

Originally Posted by Paiger8

Hahahah, I knew you were going to say something about potato. The funny thing is, I checked the canned food for potato, but not the kibble. Good catch! I'll cut it out first, and maybe give them a tiny bit of canned before bed instead.

The Turkey flavored Wellness does have Sweet Potato, is that a different kind of starch? And the puking is an hour or so after eating FD Raw. The kibble is 11pm-ish, before I go to bed. All the puke has been FD raw. Now that you mention it, he was running around playing after eating this last time, so it could just be that. I actually had guests over from California, and they walk in the door and he immediately threw up on the couch where he was laying. He looked pretty proud of himself too.

I knew you'd know I'd say something about potato! I'm very predictable!

I don't quite consider it the root (ha!) of all feline dietary evil but I really think it's a terrible addition to cat food. I bet your cats would be happy with a little canned food before bed. (Sometimes I "garnish" a little serving with PureBites or Stella & Chewy's for our cats: they love it! I think they like the combination of the wet food with the dry, slightly crunchy garnish.)

I'm not very familiar with sweet potato because I won't/don't feed it, either: it's also very carby. I did quick searches on peas, potatoes, and sweet potatoes to look at the nutrition information that Google popped up (very generic because different strains and forms will have different levels) and found that sweet potatoes and peas are especially sugary (really good given diabetes in cats!). I guess there's a reason they're "sweet" potatoes, huh? (I guess that's always why I've never liked them!) Seriously, though, I didn't realize the Wellness had sweet potato in it. Unless that's a recent addition since the Catinfo.org tables, over all, though, the food's not especially carby. Though if even small amounts of carby vegetables bother your cat, sweet potato is a potential culprit, too. As, of course, Primal might be, depending on what kind of squash it contains. The overall carbs on Primal are low and (knock on wood and all that) it doesn't bother our cats so I haven't bothered to ask what squash they're using.

Your story about the couch, ouch! Your guests must have been very impressed! (OMG, I'm sorry for all this unintentional rhyme!) Our previous cat once dragged her butt on the rug, halfway across the room, when a friend was over. Brooksie had a lot of digestive issues, which is why I can make that comparison between "barn-like" and "noxiously poopy" when discussing litter box smells, and my friend (who's seen just about everything so was not at all fazed) only said, "Maybe she needs to drink more water?"

On that happy note, here's hoping something works to make your cats' box smell less!

lisamarie12 · Dec 31, 2015

LisaHE said:
I'm not very familiar with sweet potato because I won't/don't feed it, either: it's also very carby. I did quick searches on peas, potatoes, and sweet potatoes to look at the nutrition information that Google popped up (very generic because different strains and forms will have different levels) and found that sweet potatoes and peas are especially sugary (really good given diabetes in cats!). I guess there's a reason they're "sweet" potatoes, huh? (I guess that's always why I've never liked them!)

Sweet potatoes are lower on the glycemic index, (better for humans who are diabetic than white potato - like my mom, whose diabetic, can eat SP vs white potatoes), but that's humans, I agree, those ingredients are way too starchy for our feline friends.

Hmm.... re peas. I'm concerned now about the peas in NVI ...... although I pick them out but still .... hmm....

When I contacted Weruva to ask about the Steak Frites which uses potato starch but also had chunks of what looked like regular white potato, I was told they use "white sweet potatoes" which would be yams, which are white. I did a quick search and found that yams are supposed to be less starchy than regular sweet potatoes.

So difficult to find a decent low starch food, carrageenan-free and ideally guar gum free food, esp for me since my cats can't eat chicken.

missmimz · Dec 31, 2015

Paiger8 said:
How much probiotic do you dose per cat? Half a pill per day? More? I'm definitely open to trying it.

Yeah half a pill is probably fine. It would depend on how strong your probiotics are, but they are generally really safe so its hard to give them "too much." I use a pretty strong human grade probiotic and none of my cats or kittens have ever had an issue with it. I don't really measure either, i just dump some on their AM food.

Canned/Freeze Dried Raw.... Litter box and Puking Issues.

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