Rescued an abandoned kitten: sick, no clue, and lonely

rendy · Nov 30, 2015

Hello All,

This is my first time experience with cat, I am sorry for the long post and my poor English.

A stray cat gave birth in my parents-in-law's attic last month, judging from the scratching and meowing sound we sure there were more than one kitten. They stayed there in the attic till two weeks ago. Two weeks ago, we heard one kitten keep meowing all night long into the afternoon, so we checked it out and apparently the mother cat had abandoned one of the kitten. We rescued the kitten from the attic, it probably around 3 weeks old. The kitten was in a bad condition:

- the eyes had a lot of dirt and a kind of watery discharge, even after we cleaned it it returned after an hour or two. It seemed she was not able to see clearly but she responded well to voice.
- the kitten probably is a female, she is very thin, very less to no hair on her belly, chest, front leg and her nose. Her ribs bone is visible.
- her shoulder is narrow but hip is wider, her stomach also big (compared to her shoulder, the hip and stomach do not look proportional)
- her body was covered with dirt from the attic, and has fleas
- her poop was watery, most likely suffering from diarrhea
- rear leg was weak, when she walked she often dragged her rear leg, also she often delaying in lifting and moving it.

Do you think the mother cat know of these and then decided to abandoned her? We tried a few times to keep the kitten outside the house for a few hours but the mother cat did not return.

We gave the kitten a bath and cleaned her as much as possible, fed her with wet food and water, put her in a cartoon box with towel and warm bottled water. We took her to a vet clinic where she was given some medicines for worm, diarrhea, and the eyes. After one week she got much better, diarrhea stopped, eyes were clean but somehow we feel her vision is not that clear yet. Her stomach was still big, she also still has fleas (the vet told us not to give her bath as she is still too small). Her rear leg was much better, she could actually walked fast but in a funny looking. We took her to the vet for the second time and left her there for 4 days so that she would be given more proper care.

We got her back last Friday, unfortunately there has been not much improvement:
- her stomach is still big, the vet said she has a problem with digestive system as her poop is rather greenish, the size and amount of each poop are not as much as it supposed to be. The vet told us to stop giving her milk for the mean time, and to give her a special kitten food to help her digestive system. She eats a lot, 3 times a day and use her litter box quite frequently (although there has been a few accidents).
- we found her anus is swollen. This was not the case before she was sent to the clinic, but the vet did not say anything about it. We do not know for sure, but we think this is probably due to dry food given to her in the clinic. Actually she does not eat dry food unless there is no other choice. In the first few days after we rescued her, we tried to give her a dry food once a while but it seemed it was too hard for her. Even if we crushed the dry food and mixed it with milk she won't eat it.

Other things that we observed:
- she does not know how to use her tongue to eat or clean herself. She always push the wet food around the plate, often puts her front legs, her face, or her front body inside the plate spilling out the wet food. She does not really care about the spilled food, sometimes if the spilled chunk is big enough she eats it but most of the time she ignores it. Due to this, her leg, face, and body become dirty and she does not know how to use her tongue to clean it so ants come to her crawling and she just meowing crying for help so everytime we have to clean her up after feeding. Unfortunately, this has become too troublesome for us.
- she also does not know how to lap the water, we gave her watter using a pipet (kitten bottle is rather hard to find) or mix a little water to her wet food.
- her rear legs are stronger now, in fact she now likes to climb up and sit in the couch but then she can not get down and always meowing for help. We are very happy because initially we thought she got the swimmer leg syndrome.
- her voice is little and weak. If I compared it to kitten of similar age in Youtube videos, those kittens' voice are much stronger.
- we keep her in a pavillion room, its door is closed but we can see her from big windows. The reason is that my parents-in-law is old and a little bit allergic to cat. The kitten seems lonely and is craving for attention

everytime someone open the door she immediately runs to him/her even when it is not the feeding time. She likes to rub her body against our feet and sometimes try to climb up to our lap. Unfortunately we can not give her as much as she wants, we kind of feeling sad about it. Do you think this is because of she miss her mother cat?

We are trying to find another vet as we feel the first vet was not good enough, but in the meantime we would appreciate it if anyone can give us advice to improve the situation. Actually we are working abroad and will have to leave after a month, we wish we could but it is not possible to take her with us. So at this point we are just trying to get her to healthy shape then hopefully someone is willing to adopt her. She is just a local (not a pure-breed) but even in her current condition, she is very cute and lovely.

Thank you!

rendy · Nov 30, 2015

Actually the situation has become more complicated. Yesterday when we returned home one neighbour told us that someone dumped a kitten in a box in front of her house. Nobody has taken care of it so we took this Kitty #2 with us too. The kitten is probably one week old, but it looks healthy and also, pretty sure her mother is a well maintained pet. My first post is long already, so I think Kitty #2 can wait for some time

icoele · Nov 30, 2015

Hi Rendy and welcome to the site! Your english is fine, don't worry.

If the kittens really are that young without their mother, only wet food and dry food will not suffice. You need to get some KMR, or kitten milk replacer, and bottle/syringe feed them. You'll want to keep track of their weights too, especially the younger one. Multiple opinions from multiple vets are always good. Where are you in the world? Finding a shelter nearby and getting info from them might help as well.

What do you plan on doing with the kittens once they are all better?

@sarthur2 may be able to help you more than I. Rendy, feel free to browse the site and look through threads similar to yours to find suggestions and tips.

StefanZ · Nov 30, 2015

Rendy said:
Hello All,

This is my first time experience with cat, I am sorry for the long post and my poor English.

A stray cat gave birth in my parents-in-law's attic last month, judging from the scratching and meowing sound we sure there were more than one kitten. They stayed there in the attic till two weeks ago. Two weeks ago, we heard one kitten keep meowing all night long into the afternoon, so we checked it out and apparently the mother cat had abandoned one of the kitten. We rescued the kitten from the attic, it probably around 3 weeks old. The kitten was in a bad condition:

- the eyes had a lot of dirt and a kind of watery discharge, even after we cleaned it it returned after an hour or two. It seemed she was not able to see clearly but she responded well to voice.
- the kitten probably is a female, she is very thin, very less to no hair on her belly, chest, front leg and her nose. Her ribs bone is visible.
- her shoulder is narrow but hip is wider, her stomach also big (compared to her shoulder, the hip and stomach do not look proportional)
- her body was covered with dirt from the attic, and has fleas
- her poop was watery, most likely suffering from diarrhea
- rear leg was weak, when she walked she often dragged her rear leg, also she often delaying in lifting and moving it.

Do you think the mother cat know of these and then decided to abandoned her? We tried a few times to keep the kitten outside the house for a few hours but the mother cat did not return.

We gave the kitten a bath and cleaned her as much as possible, fed her with wet food and water, put her in a cartoon box with towel and warm bottled water. We took her to a vet clinic where she was given some medicines for worm, diarrhea, and the eyes. After one week she got much better, diarrhea stopped, eyes were clean but somehow we feel her vision is not that clear yet. Her stomach was still big, she also still has fleas (the vet told us not to give her bath as she is still too small). Her rear leg was much better, she could actually walked fast but in a funny looking. We took her to the vet for the second time and left her there for 4 days so that she would be given more proper care.

We got her back last Friday, unfortunately there has been not much improvement:
- her stomach is still big, the vet said she has a problem with digestive system as her poop is rather greenish, the size and amount of each poop are not as much as it supposed to be. The vet told us to stop giving her milk for the mean time, and to give her a special kitten food to help her digestive system. She eats a lot, 3 times a day and use her litter box quite frequently (although there has been a few accidents).
- we found her anus is swollen. This was not the case before she was sent to the clinic, but the vet did not say anything about it. We do not know for sure, but we think this is probably due to dry food given to her in the clinic. Actually she does not eat dry food unless there is no other choice. In the first few days after we rescued her, we tried to give her a dry food once a while but it seemed it was too hard for her. Even if we crushed the dry food and mixed it with milk she won't eat it.

Other things that we observed:
- she does not know how to use her tongue to eat or clean herself. She always push the wet food around the plate, often puts her front legs, her face, or her front body inside the plate spilling out the wet food. She does not really care about the spilled food, sometimes if the spilled chunk is big enough she eats it but most of the time she ignores it. Due to this, her leg, face, and body become dirty and she does not know how to use her tongue to clean it so ants come to her crawling and she just meowing crying for help so everytime we have to clean her up after feeding. Unfortunately, this has become too troublesome for us.
- she also does not know how to lap the water, we gave her watter using a pipet (kitten bottle is rather hard to find) or mix a little water to her wet food.
- her rear legs are stronger now, in fact she now likes to climb up and sit in the couch but then she can not get down and always meowing for help. We are very happy because initially we thought she got the swimmer leg syndrome.
- her voice is little and weak. If I compared it to kitten of similar age in Youtube videos, those kittens' voice are much stronger.
- we keep her in a pavillion room, its door is closed but we can see her from big windows. The reason is that my parents-in-law is old and a little bit allergic to cat. The kitten seems lonely and is craving for attention everytime someone open the door she immediately runs to him/her even when it is not the feeding time. She likes to rub her body against our feet and sometimes try to climb up to our lap. Unfortunately we can not give her as much as she wants, we kind of feeling sad about it. Do you think this is because of she miss her mother cat?

We are trying to find another vet as we feel the first vet was not good enough, but in the meantime we would appreciate it if anyone can give us advice to improve the situation. Actually we are working abroad and will have to leave after a month, we wish we could but it is not possible to take her with us. So at this point we are just trying to get her to healthy shape then hopefully someone is willing to adopt her. She is just a local (not a pure-breed) but even in her current condition, she is very cute and lovely.

Thank you!

I will write more later on, I see you already got some advices.

Can you possibly get raw goat milk? fresh or frozen? I think this is the best here. Otherwise, some good KMR yes. The brand of PetAg in powder is best of them. GNC is good too.

Raw egg yolk as addition is useful - if you dont have problems with salomonella in eggs in your place.

There is a probiotic, BeneBac, also made by PetAg, its good.

Which country are you in?

StefanZ · Nov 30, 2015

dont try any more to help mom find it. IF you can help her. This kitten will die, even if mom returns for it. This kitten may die even if you do your outmost, its in the state of total exhaustion.

So food, often but small portions! Be sure she gets hydrated. Use a pedialyte for water intake - bought or home made.   Bought is best such flavorless for small children, but almost any should be OK.

Of the homemade - there are several receips. Best is one which uses glucose sugar / dextrose, not common sugar.   And minerale salt.

Even some good minerale water is good, let the gas out, and you do have water with lotsa of good salts. Add some glucose sugar, and voilá! you do have a first rate home made pedialyte.

If you dont have glucose sugar proper, use glucose sirup, white caro syrup, or even honey - all these do contain glucose sugar.

Keep the kitten warm. Ie warm it up actively. Teh sick are always freezing, no? Talk much and sweetly to it - its calming and reassuring.

Bedding is good of fleece - feels like moms fur.   Perhaps a stuffed toy animal as company?

I will return shorthly when I had read your full post.

StefanZ · Nov 30, 2015

I see the first critical phase is already over, now its the improvement phase... Phuh!   Still, many of my advices are standing

What milk are you giving her?   I still think if you can get her goat milk, its always good. Even bottled / cartooned / powdered is OK, and much better than for example, cow milk or some inferior kmr.

Is she still having diarrheas?

When they begin to eat real food, its often messy. They literally wade through the food, numbing here and there, and leaves most of it... So this is not unusual.

And orphans are extra difficult; they have no mama nor siblings to take example from...

Its possible a part of her helpeness is a way to get attention and company - which she does miss...   As said, have at least a stuffed toy animal, as a minimum.

Fleas are not good.   Advantage II is pretty safe. Even frontline should do.   Bathing isnt that dangerous, but its aboslutely necessary they dont get chilled out. So draught free, warm place, dry off afterwards, and have them in a warm room afterwards.

So re fleast, try to comb out the fleas. If they are too many, you can try with new baths with some mild soap (blue dawn is a classic) - but be verry cautious.

Some ideas. I hope you find some of them useful

Re the little kitten - perhaps start a tread for it. Best so.

talkingpeanut · Nov 30, 2015

Hi - don't have time for a full answer but both of these kittens need to be fed small portions every two hours or so, even through the night. They also need an external heat source. A sock with raw rice, microwaved for five minutes will work. The older one can drink kmr and eat wet food for kittens, the younger one needs only kmr. She can be fed through a dropped, one drop in her cheek at a time. They also must be cleaned frequently and helped to go to the bathroom, as their mom would. Rub their bellies and genitals with a warm, damp towel to help them go. You should do this before and after they eat, every time.

icoele · Nov 30, 2015

I second what everyone else has said. Some major things that need to be done:

Get KMR and KITTEN wet food. The KMR can be used on both but the wet food should be for the older one.
Place an external heat source in the room.
Help them potty by rubbing their bellies + genitals with a warm wet towel. This simulates mother's tongue.
Check in with multiple vets frequently.
WEIGH THEM REGULARLY! Posting the weights here will be helpful to kitten experts on the forums in helping you.
Make sure you give them the attention they need. When you aren't available, a sock with your scent or a stuffed animal to cuddle up with can make a world of difference. A small toy might keep them entertained too.

Good luck!

talkingpeanut · Dec 1, 2015

How are the kittens today?

icoele · Dec 3, 2015

Rendy,

None of us can help you any more if you don't follow up. How are the kittens?

raerae624 · Dec 3, 2015

I think there is only one kitten

icoele · Dec 3, 2015

RaeRae624 said:
I think there is only one kitten

There was originally, but then their neighbor discovered a drop-off kitten which they took in.

rendy · Dec 6, 2015

icoele said:
Hi Rendy and welcome to the site! Your english is fine, don't worry.

If the kittens really are that young without their mother, only wet food and dry food will not suffice. You need to get some KMR, or kitten milk replacer, and bottle/syringe feed them. You'll want to keep track of their weights too, especially the younger one. Multiple opinions from multiple vets are always good. Where are you in the world? Finding a shelter nearby and getting info from them might help as well.

What do you plan on doing with the kittens once they are all better?

@sarthur2 may be able to help you more than I. Rendy, feel free to browse the site and look through threads similar to yours to find suggestions and tips.

Hi icoele, sorry for the late reply.. I've got problem with my laptop and just fixed it. I am from Indonesia, my current plan is to find somebody who is willing to adopt them. There are only a few animal shelter present in my city (but quite far from my place) and from what I read all of them are full and they are mostly into dogs. I've got some KMR and feeding them using pipet. I bought a kitten bottle too but they do know how to suck the milk.

rendy · Dec 6, 2015

StefanZ said:
I will write more later on, I see you already got some advices.

Can you possibly get raw goat milk? fresh or frozen? I think this is the best here. Otherwise, some good KMR yes. The brand of PetAg in powder is best of them. GNC is good too.

Raw egg yolk as addition is useful - if you dont have problems with salomonella in eggs in your place.

There is a probiotic, BeneBac, also made by PetAg, its good.

Which country are you in?

Hi Stefan,

Raw goat milk is rather hard to get. At the moment I gave them a KMR, not those brands you have mentioned though, I think this is just a local brand but the kittens like it. I googled PetAg in my city/Jakarta and it appears only dog's milk is available.

rendy · Dec 6, 2015

Hi, I think I would just put the update here instead of replying to each post to avoid repetition, I hope you dont mind.

Kitten #1:

- Diarrhea has stopped since a few days ago. Stool is solid.

- Her belly still big, but she does not seem to have problem with it. She moves around easily, climbing up the sofa and now she can jump down too, can run fast. She looks healthy but for some reason her belly looks too big for a kitten. The vet gave her worm medicine two times already but I am not sure if it makes any difference.

- She still has a little bit of fleas though. I have not given her bath yet.. just picked up the fleas whenever I saw it. I have not found a flea comb in the nearby pet shop.

- In the last few days it seems there has been a change in her behaviour. She has been acting like panicking when she smelled the wet food or KMR. She often try to jump to reach the milk and wet food pouch, but when I put the food plate down on the floor, she gets calmer even she occasionally stops eating to play a little bit and then return. The same thing also happens when I gave him milk using a pipet. Once the milk in the pipet is finished she will runs around and once the pipet gets refilled she returns.

- In the last few days too, there has been more poop accidents happening. Previously she was able to use the litter box quite often, I would say 90% of the time, but these days she has been pooping everywhere not only on the litter box. This has been giving us quite some work to clean the room. The good thing is that her swollen anus is now back to normal.

- I bought toys for her, a few plastic balls with bells inside it. She plays with those balls but easily gets bored and prefer to chase and wrestle people's leg instead.

- Another problem, since two days ago she likes to pounce, wrestle, and try to bite Kitten #2. This has become a problem, because Kitten #2 is half the size of Kitten #1 and she just barely started to learn how to walk. We had punished her if she pounced Kitten #2 by putting her inside a carrier box. If she has been punished like that, she becomes calmer for a short while and playing with people's leg, but after sometime again she pounces the little kitten. Kitten #1 is probably just want to play but today I noticed that Kitten #2 has a swollen eye, may she got scratched. At the moment I kept the little kitten inside the carrier box most of the time because I don't have any additional room to keep them separated.

Kitten #2:

- I think she is pretty much healthy, she has just started trying to walk. Her rear legs still weak. The issue that I found today is that she is rarely poop, even though her belly and genital get massaged every after milk feeding, she only pees.

- Other than this, her other problem is her being pounced and wrestled by Kitten #1

talkingpeanut · Dec 6, 2015

Kittens sometimes need to be wormed three times.

It sounds like they are excited about being fed, which is great. How much and how often are you feeding them? The one who gets solids can have kitten chow left down for her all of the time so she always has something to nibble. Is the food helping with her digestive system? What did the vet say was wrong?

You can add some olive oil to the bottle of the one who can't poop. A few drops should help. How often is it going?

How many litter boxes do you have? Active kittens often need reminders about where to go. You can place the kitten there before/after feedings as well. Also, when she poops on the floor you can put it in the litterbox as a reminder. You then have to clean the floor with an enzyme cleaner so she doesn't associate it with a bathroom.

She may have a cat virus and need ointment for the eye. Is pus coming out?

Don't punish the bigger kitten for playing - play with her instead. She needs to be redirected to a toy that's appropriate until the smaller one is big enough to keep up. She has energy that isn't being exhausted.

rendy · Dec 6, 2015

talkingpeanut said:
Kittens sometimes need to be wormed three times.

It sounds like they are excited about being fed, which is great. How much and how often are you feeding them? The one who gets solids can have kitten chow left down for her all of the time so she always has something to nibble. Is the food helping with her digestive system? What did the vet say was wrong?

You can add some olive oil to the bottle of the one who can't poop. A few drops should help. How often is it going?

How many litter boxes do you have? Active kittens often need reminders about where to go. You can place the kitten there before/after feedings as well. Also, when she poops on the floor you can put it in the litterbox as a reminder. You then have to clean the floor with an enzyme cleaner so she doesn't associate it with a bathroom.

She may have a cat virus and need ointment for the eye. Is pus coming out?

Don't punish the bigger kitten for playing - play with her instead. She needs to be redirected to a toy that's appropriate until the smaller one is big enough to keep up. She has energy that isn't being exhausted.

Alright, I will take her to get dewormed for the third times. I don't remember when the second dewormed was done, is there any waiting period that need to be observed before taking the third one?

Kitten #1 was fed with wet food (Whiskas Junior) 4 times a day, about 2-3 spoon each mixed with water because she can't lick water using her tongue. Some of the wet food usually get spilled out because of her way of eating. She does not eat dry food unless she is really hungry and wet food is not given, still we put some in her bowl for just in case. The vet did not clearly tell what is wrong with her belly, she just said the kitten has a digestive problem and told us not to give her milk for a week. We have been giving her milk again since the last two days, each time about 4-6 pipets (maybe around 40 cc).

The little kitten #2 has not pooped for approximately 1 day, usually about 2-3 times per day. Does it sound normal?

I have only one litter box for both kittens. These past few days, when Kitten #1 remembered to use the litter box, she sometimes left her stool unburied. She would simply walk, sometimes stepped on her stool. I don't know what happen, previously she always made an attempt to bury it. I have never heard of enzyme cleaner before, not sure if it is available here. Can Dettol be used instead?

The little kitten's eye looks healthy, it is the eyelid and the area around it which is swollen. I think it got scratched when Kitten #1 pounced her. I put warm damp towel on her eyes for a few minutes, now the swollen is reduced yet her left eye looks smaller as compared to her right eye.

We are going to look for some stuffed animal toy/doll tomorrow, hopefully she will like it. We bought a fishing rod type of toy too but she is not interested at all. She has been really interested in little kitten #2 since last two days, initially when we rescued the little kitten #2 she was only watching her.

talkingpeanut · Dec 6, 2015

Rendy said:
Alright, I will take her to get dewormed for the third times. I don't remember when the second dewormed was done, is there any waiting period that need to be observed before taking the third one?

Kitten #1 was fed with wet food (Whiskas Junior) 4 times a day, about 2-3 spoon each mixed with water because she can't lick water using her tongue. Some of the wet food usually get spilled out because of her way of eating. She does not eat dry food unless she is really hungry and wet food is not given, still we put some in her bowl for just in case. The vet did not clearly tell what is wrong with her belly, she just said the kitten has a digestive problem and told us not to give her milk for a week. We have been giving her milk again since the last two days, each time about 4-6 pipets (maybe around 40 cc).

The little kitten #2 has not pooped for approximately 1 day, usually about 2-3 times per day. Does it sound normal?

I have only one litter box for both kittens. These past few days, when Kitten #1 remembered to use the litter box, she sometimes left her stool unburied. She would simply walk, sometimes stepped on her stool. I don't know what happen, previously she always made an attempt to bury it. I have never heard of enzyme cleaner before, not sure if it is available here. Can Dettol be used instead?

The little kitten's eye looks healthy, it is the eyelid and the area around it which is swollen. I think it got scratched when Kitten #1 pounced her. I put warm damp towel on her eyes for a few minutes, now the swollen is reduced yet her left eye looks smaller as compared to her right eye.

We are going to look for some stuffed animal toy/doll tomorrow, hopefully she will like it. We bought a fishing rod type of toy too but she is not interested at all. She has been really interested in little kitten #2 since last two days, initially when we rescued the little kitten #2 she was only watching her.

The dewormer has to be used in regular intervals. If she does have worms again she will need it three more times. The point is to get the worms at all stages of their life cycle. Ask about when it is safe to deworm the smaller one as well.

And she's been doing well since she's having milk again? No more green stool? I would ask the vet for more information.

One day is ok, but I would start to be concerned after more than that. Add the olive oil to her bottles.

Add additional litter boxes. She is likely too excited to remember to get to the litter box in time. She should always have one in her sight, and it should be small enough for her to climb in easily. Even a baking sheet with litter in it will work at this age.

The area around her eye could still be swollen from an eye infection. Keep an eye on it. If it gets any worse she will need ointment.

She definitely needs to play more and she is looking to the smaller kitten as a friend.

StefanZ · Dec 6, 2015

What dewormer is used? The usual for kittens is to use a dewormer which takes roundworms, as kittens gets it form mommas, if momma wasnt properly dewormed.

For example, pyrantel poamate is typical and very good.

But, as the kitten has also fleas, it may have tapeworms too. As fleas are inbetween hosts for tapeworms.

So she should be dewormed with something which takes tapeworms (too). Your vet does surely have suitable preparates.

rendy · Dec 8, 2015

talkingpeanut said:
The dewormer has to be used in regular intervals. If she does have worms again she will need it three more times. The point is to get the worms at all stages of their life cycle. Ask about when it is safe to deworm the smaller one as well.

And she's been doing well since she's having milk again? No more green stool? I would ask the vet for more information.

One day is ok, but I would start to be concerned after more than that. Add the olive oil to her bottles.

Add additional litter boxes. She is likely too excited to remember to get to the litter box in time. She should always have one in her sight, and it should be small enough for her to climb in easily. Even a baking sheet with litter in it will work at this age.

The area around her eye could still be swollen from an eye infection. Keep an eye on it. If it gets any worse she will need ointment.

She definitely needs to play more and she is looking to the smaller kitten as a friend.

No more green stool, but it is softer. I plan to bring her to vet maybe next week, still looking for good vet nearby.

Yes she needs to play but so far she plays a bit rough. She is showing interest to 'high places' such as sofa, table, etc. Yesterday she found something new, there is an unused carpet roll in the room placed standing against the wall and above it there is a ventilation hole like 2.5 m above the floor, she climbed the carpet and on to the ventilation hole 4 times yesterday and the last one was around 11 pm. We came to know about this because she could not get down and meowed asking for help.

Rescued an abandoned kitten: sick, no clue, and lonely

TCS Member

Thread starter

TCS Member

Thread starter

TCS Member

Advisor

Advisor

Advisor

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

Thread starter

TCS Member

Thread starter

TCS Member

Thread starter

TCS Member

TCS Member

Thread starter

TCS Member

Advisor

TCS Member

Thread starter