CRF/CKD Cat.... food?

momofmaxwell · Nov 10, 2015

Hi Lisa marie.

I couldn't have worded it better.LOl My Boy at 6 yrs everyday could you imagine the scar tissue from that megga.?And thanks for the info I already have well known over the years about fluid therapy and the ability to buy it yourself with a vet's script.

Fluids,needles ,etc.way cheaper and exactly the same brand everything.I know this from the CKD group I belong to from 12 years ago.It saved me so much over the years.They actually have links there as to where to buy.My first bag from the vet was $25.00.After finding a company I paid like $3.50 a bag 1000 ml Lrs & 21 guage needless were like $8.00 box of 100.Same brand everything.21 guage never a flinch.

You will need a script and places to try are walgreens',costco pharmacy & no you don't have to be a member of Costco to use their pharmacy.Well there are a lot of places.best to call around if money is an object that is.for me with 6 yrs I saved alot.I'm sure your vet will understand the costs & trying to save money as a ckd kitty will need fluids etc for life .So it all helps big time.One member in Alaska paid like $50.00 for her first bag.What a rip off IMO.... Hugs C.

mrsgreenjeens · Nov 11, 2015

Pawprints, just thought I would let you in on a little secret my Vet showed me. She actually comes in from the FRONT of the scruff rather than from the back. It's weird, and WE don't do it, but SHE does if she happens to be giving our girl fluids (very rare as we normally do it). But for whatever reason, this is the way she does it, and it will, naturally, cause the fluids to go in a different direction. So when she does it, when the needle goes in, the tip is actually facing the cat's rear end vs the head, if that makes any sense. She still pulls up the scruff to insert it...I'd never seen anything like it

.

Also, my girl sounds pathetic every time I pick her up at fluids time. she knows when it's time, and she doesn't like them, so she gets all "why me" on me. I feel bad for her, but after it's done, then I know she feels better, because after she runs and hides for about 5 minutes, then she'll be in the kitchen saying "feed me!". So....I'm wondering if that's why your girl is crying on you...she might just be saying "not again", thinking maybe you're coming to get her to poke her again

momofmaxwell · Nov 11, 2015

Hi PawPrints.

I have also seen it mentioned that method Mrs.Green jeans advised on the Ckd group.What i was told yrs ago by my Internist is never restrain your cat for meds .Although many have to be .I understand.Also they have a real good memory to pain or restraint.

Never during syringing,pilling,subq,syringe feeding did I ever have to restrain any of my cats.I used the bathroom and had them on the counter.An old cutting board that would sit over the sink so you had a platform area with a towel.

No bending over to medicate or whatever.I always, depending on the kitty, had their treats ready.Maxwell had his special ones that I broke up into tiny pces and put it in a little cup.Dehydrated chicken,temptations etc.Not tons but say a tbsp.

I always closed the bathroom door behind us so there was no running out.Although i never had any of those attempts.Also praise during the whole ordeal and once done I would dump onto the counter the treats.

He/They would sit and munch.Treats were never given any other time of the day.They were associated with either pilling.Syringing or subq fluids so actually Maxwell would come running.

So if your baby has some favorites associating them with treats may be the way to go trying your best to make it a positive experience.Temp of fluids,the needle poke,restraint if restrained they all remember.So key is to trying to change things up a bit to say hey now is a good time with positive reinforcement being food.

Some people I know will also use a bathroom setting with a felliway diffuser plugged in for at least an hr prior.It is hard but doable as all these things can be a lifesaver to our kitties and making it a bad experience although we don't mean to they remember.

Now to earn back the trust.Some people wrap their babies into a burrito & never ever tried it without one.So they don't even know how kitty would respond.Also if all fluids are ready ,needle etc & you have treats plop down treats and while infusing as they start munching that is when you give the fluids.

You will get it.It takes time & patience.Some kitties are so upset that fluids to them is death.Keep going it will get better.Hugs C.

PushPurrCatPaws · Nov 11, 2015

mrsgreenjeens said:
Pawprints, just thought I would let you in on a little secret my Vet showed me. She actually comes in from the FRONT of the scruff rather than from the back. It's weird, and WE don't do it, but SHE does if she happens to be giving our girl fluids (very rare as we normally do it). But for whatever reason, this is the way she does it, and it will, naturally, cause the fluids to go in a different direction. So when she does it, when the needle goes in, the tip is actually facing the cat's rear end vs the head, if that makes any sense. She still pulls up the scruff to insert it...I'd never seen anything like it :lol3: .

...

My last cat needed subQ fluids at times during her last year of life. I always gave her fluids the way you describe above; it's how the vet we had at the time showed me how to do it. Odd! I couldn't imagine doing it any other way! lol

pawprints1986 · Nov 11, 2015

Where did gravity normally take the fluids, when given in that direction? Does it matter? I feel like it would be easier for it to migrate to the chest area that way... But in definitely no expert! Lol

pawprints1986 · Nov 11, 2015

MomofMaxwell said:
Hi pawprints.

How much fluids are you giving per session? You may have already posted that.I'm sorry for reasking.What size of needle are you using.I never ever used the 18 guage harpoon that most vets give you.I used a 21 guage ultra thinned wall terumo brand.But many use the 18 but not me not even in a pinch.Just me.

Are you using Lrs or ?? I did on occasion get it into the foot which i didn't realize until being told by my internist it is very painful for them.Your kitties heart is ok right? I have seen as little as 60 mls make a kitty go into cardiac arrest from an underlying heart condition no one knew of.

Good your vet said to stop & take a break.I don't know how much you are giving at one time.I don't mean a heart murmer I mean having an echo performed to check the heart.But if you re giving a lot of fluids it does make the kidney's work harder.Maybe kitty doesn't feel well after when it gets them kicked in.

Good job!!! Hugs C.

We are normally at 100ml per session (normally 2x a week as of 2 weeks ago, but before that 3x a week for 2 weeks), but this last time (since she had seemed uncomfortable the time before) i tried 90 ml, but the discomfort amount seemed exactly the same. it took over 24 hours to absorb, i picked her up yesterday around the 24 hour mark, and there was still a bit there. We are using 19g right now. We use the syringe method (faster), i thought about trying 20g infusion sets, but they dont exist. i dont know if i could make my own with a standard needle with a bit of tubing attached? I thought about trying the 21g as well, as they do have an infusion set that size, with the thin wall (it doesnt say ultra?) but im afraid of it taking much much longer.

we are using the lactated ringers. Yep the heart sounded good at last checkup, and at the emerg vet before that.

i did some math though earlier... i brought a table spoon with me and actually measured how much water i put on each serving of food. it worked out to about 3 tablespoons... she normally eats at least 3 times a day but normally about 4, all with extra added water. *so* that means shes been getting about 130 mils of water per day, just with food. even if its an off day and she only eats twice, thats still 88 mls.

SO im wondering if these last couple of times she just truly didnt need the subQ's, which was why she was so uncomfortable... like we were basically making her body work overtime? I didnt notice the time before last time how long it took to absorb, or really any of the times before that... but with trying to figure out what was happening, i took a closer notice this time (after i realized last time wasnt a fluke as far as her reaction).

But basically, on that day where she had eaten well (i think 3 times before injection), she was on 130ml from food plus and injected 90 mls... so over 200 mls of fluids in her in one day...... im thinking thats aLOT for a cat.

but i was talking with my mom before, trying to figure out why the times before that she was totally alright with the injections and was eating the same way/amount.... maybe her body needed to play catchup a little bit even after the IV? and now it has caught up? Thats the only part that is still a bit confusing....

momofmaxwell · Nov 11, 2015

Hi Pawprints.

That is why I joined strictly a ckd group to ask all those questions.As per the 21 guage winged infusions, I have used them & have a box right here .I sometimes did the syringe method as well as Maxwell was on 60mls just for hydrating his bowel.

Nothing to do with his CKD stage.He was only stage 2 (iris) and that stayed there for 6 yrs.Never changed.Terumo makes a 21 guage winged infusion and I am looking at the box right now.Yes it has the rubber line with the butterfly mostly used on children and a 21 guage ultra thin walled needle at the end.

All come ind.packaged & sterile.So on the box it says Terumo Surflo winged infusion set

50 per box 21GX3/4" Pt # SV21BLK gives you a 12'' leader of line and will fit on the end of your syringe.I think I paid like $30.00 box or something like that.

Your kitty maybe hydrated well now.I also gave Maxwell oral water in his canned meat as it all helps.So with my boy with 60 subq and water in his meat he was getting about 90-100mls per night.You should be seeing big pee balls in the toilet .Other member's can guide you how to test your kitty for hydration.

Just all depends on your kitties blood numbers.The urine specific gravity or usg & just how dilute it was at the last urine test.Dilute urine meaning your kitty pees out more water than what would be staying in the body.Maxwell's numbers.creatinine low 2's and usg 1.035 HTH Honey & Hugs to the Babe.C.

pawprints1986 · Nov 12, 2015

Not sure if this is helpful at all... but i did a count earlier today... and between about 2am last night (im a night owl), and about 3pm this afternoon, she had 4 good sized pees. her brother, on the other hand, only had one (he loves his kibble - he definitely gets less water in his food *but* his food makes him thirsty so...) we do see him drinking, i havent noticed her drinking since ive been wetting the food so much. I purposely kept a community water bowl where they are most often (as well as their own in their food areas), but i havent noticed her just drink to drink water.... not since the huge increase in wet food.

catminionjess · Nov 13, 2015

Well I've been adding water to my cats' wet food for about 2 months now, but Jumbo still drinks from the water bowls excessively a pees excessively. Boogie Bear and Sgt Pepper seem to drink and pee about the same ever. Actually, mostly they just paw at their water the same as ever and pee the same ever. So if your girl is drinking less now with adding water to the food, I don't know if that's an improvement or not. I would ask your vet to know for sure.

pawprints1986 · Nov 14, 2015

weve definitely been enjoying our time off from fluids

today is day 5 without.... but weve still been eating well (between 133-170 mils through the day with her food). i think she is definitely thankful for the break.

my plan is to call him back on tuesday, describe how shes been acting and eating, and see what he recommends (maybe a smaller dose?) so she doesnt stay squishy for so long.... and hopefully wont feel so unwell assuming we do need to start doing them again, even if its only once a week on a lesser dose, as a little booster.

she still gets so suspicious when we do fluids though.... probably because she felt so lousy after the last couple of times... i hope maybe this time off will help her forget about that nasty reaction (but then, when it starts a couple hours later, i wonder if she would even associate the lousy feelings with the fluid session? hmm)

mrsgreenjeens · Nov 16, 2015

Pawprints, from what you described, with the "fluid balloons" lasting so long, etc. it does sound to me as if she was getting too much. It's hard to know, but they shouldn't have still been there 24 hours later is all I know. BUT, with kidney cats, fluids are life, so it's a fine line. My girl gets lots of fluids internally with her fountain and in her food, since she eats many, many meals per day, all of which have extra water added, but she still always feels better when she gets her sub-qs. I'm sure I'm repeating myself, but she only gets between 100 and 150 ml twice a week. We just give them until she starts to seem uncomfortable, then we turn her loose. Some days we could probably do more, but we don't. Normally after fluids she will look like a little lioness because they normally go around her neck and chest so it puffs out her fur there, but within just a couple of hours, she's almost back down to normal and i can't feel any pockets of fluids anymore.

Hopefully your Vet will say you can keep things as is unless your little one starts acting differently...stops eating, starts vomiting, that type of thing.

pawprints1986 · Nov 16, 2015

mrsgreenjeens said:
Pawprints, from what you described, with the "fluid balloons" lasting so long, etc. it does sound to me as if she was getting too much. It's hard to know, but they shouldn't have still been there 24 hours later is all I know. BUT, with kidney cats, fluids are life, so it's a fine line. My girl gets lots of fluids internally with her fountain and in her food, since she eats many, many meals per day, all of which have extra water added, but she still always feels better when she gets her sub-qs. I'm sure I'm repeating myself, but she only gets between 100 and 150 ml twice a week. We just give them until she starts to seem uncomfortable, then we turn her loose. Some days we could probably do more, but we don't. Normally after fluids she will look like a little lioness because they normally go around her neck and chest so it puffs out her fur there, but within just a couple of hours, she's almost back down to normal and i can't feel any pockets of fluids anymore.

Hopefully your Vet will say you can keep things as is unless your little one starts acting differently...stops eating, starts vomiting, that type of thing.

Ive also been feeding more small meals with water added, instead of one or 2 bigger meals. shes actually used to being free fed, so to a point ive been just trying to make sure somethings is out at all times. but if i have the time i do like to hang around at least until i see that she has had some (the added water moreso, but food too).

How much does your cat weigh? Just curious.

with letting her loose, do you mean until shes uncomfortable as in that particular session/wont sit still anymore? or did you experience where they were uncomfortable a few hours afterwards too?

i have seen the lioness effect here too, definitely. that was actually the first day she had an off reaction, i thought it may have been where it migrated to.... that was before i had done any math with how much she gets with food.

tomorrow is the magic day..... most people would probably just go ahead with doing fluids... but id rather report with how shes been and get his opinion, rather than just go ahead with it again and have her feeling yucky afterwards again. he may recommend to keep holding off? He may say to do less of a dose? i guess it could turn into a play it by ear and see how she does day to day, if she starts seeming off, resume fluids? Who knows.... some owners probably dont keep as close of an eye though im guessing. Ill see what tomorrow brings

mrsgreenjeens · Nov 17, 2015

pawprints1986 said:
Ive also been feeding more small meals with water added, instead of one or 2 bigger meals. shes actually used to being free fed, so to a point ive been just trying to make sure somethings is out at all times. but if i have the time i do like to hang around at least until i see that she has had some (the added water moreso, but food too).

How much does your cat weigh? Just curious. 5 lbs, give or take

with letting her loose, do you mean until shes uncomfortable as in that particular session/wont sit still anymore? YES or did you experience where they were uncomfortable a few hours afterwards too? NEVER THIS, she's always hungry right after,and a happy little camper, because she feels better

i have seen the lioness effect here too, definitely. that was actually the first day she had an off reaction, i thought it may have been where it migrated to.... that was before i had done any math with how much she gets with food.

tomorrow is the magic day..... most people would probably just go ahead with doing fluids... but id rather report with how shes been and get his opinion, rather than just go ahead with it again and have her feeling yucky afterwards again. he may recommend to keep holding off? He may say to do less of a dose? i guess it could turn into a play it by ear and see how she does day to day, if she starts seeming off, resume fluids? Who knows.... some owners probably dont keep as close of an eye though im guessing. Ill see what tomorrow brings I would think everyone would pay close attention, but who knows?

Keep us posted as to what you end up doing

pawprints1986 · Nov 18, 2015

Talked to the vet yesterday, he suggested a few more days off.... then to try again but on a lesser dose. im just not sure how much less. he recommended 60ml, but last time when she was uncomfortable was only 90ml....

so im tempted to try 50 or even 45, just to see how it goes. he recommends once a week also... with considering what i add to food, and how shes been doing and what her numbers are at.

i have a happy cat on my hands.... but i just dont want to either do too much and make her uncomfortable again.... or not do any and have things be getting worse before their visible (like cats tend to do). if that part wasnt a fear, id be totally fine with just seeing how it goes and how she starts acting.... butbecause she wont act off until its bad... im nervous of that too...

what would you do?

mrsgreenjeens · Nov 18, 2015

I can only tell you that I know right away when my little one isn't feeling well. Her appetite will be off, and since I measure everything she eats, I know it immediately. Also, she will start to throw up froth, not to mention just being more withdrawn. Subtle signs, but you get to know them very well.

If I were you, I'd try to get in 60 and see how she does. If all goes well, there you have it. If not, then she gets a whole week off again, and then you can re-discuss with your Vet about what happened and go from there.

Just my thoughts. You obviously know your cat better than any of us.

pawprints1986 · Nov 19, 2015

Im just so nervous for her... i hate the idea of making her uncomfortable again while trying to help her....

pawprints1986 · Nov 23, 2015

We ended up trying yesterday... She got really upset, bad location or something... We got 20mls in before she just wasn't having it anymore, so we let her go for the day.

Tried again in a lower spot the next day, got another 40mls in (on top of some with food).

The 40ml was what I was planning for. We were recommended at 60ml once a week, it took 2 days but we got it.

But I have a few terumo 20g utw needles on the way, maybe those will make her take it/them better? I'm hoping?

We started a new bag today too... We didn't know how the fluid works or if it could start to sting over time... It was almost gone anyway and it had potassium added.... I started wondering if the passion could have maybe had a stinging effect

mrsgreenjeens · Nov 24, 2015

Can't remember what type of fluids you are giving her, but here is an entire webpage devoted to sub-q fluids....types of fluids, etc, that you might find helpful (in case you haven't seen it yet): http://www.felinecrf.org/subcutaneous_fluids_tips.htm

donutte · Nov 29, 2015

Just throwing in my two cents regarding the food.

I think it really depends on what stage they are in, and what your vet is suggesting. Lucky had acute on chronic, and when he got diagnosed he was already at Stage IV. My vet's suggestion was that while it would be ideal for him to eat a kidney diet, we really needed to focus on just making sure he ate - period. That meant everything, human food included (minus anything toxic to them of course) was a go. He unfortunately only lasted 16 days after his diagnosis, it just knocked him down that hard and that fast. He was actually Stage V just two weeks after initial diagnosis. But we fed him anything and everything he wanted to eat, for as long as he would eat. We had quite the smorgasbord going on actually.

Now with Sara, who has results that are indicating very very early-stage kidney disease, my vet is suggesting we start putting her on a kidney diet in the near future. She is still eating right now and eats quite a bit actually. She probably would have no problem eating a CKD-specific food either since her appetite isn't being affected yet. He just wants to wait till she's off the antibiotic before doing that (she has a tooth infection and abscessed anal gland at the moment).

Then there's the in-between stages, that will probably end up being a myriad of things between kidney food, regular food, and at some point, phos binders possibly thrown in.

And yes, Tanya's website can be rather overwhelming. There is just SO much information, and if you don't have a lot of time (although I didn't realize just how little I'd have with Lucky) it can be even more difficult. But if it's early stages, you have a lot more time to absorb the information. I will probably be going through it again in the near future now that Sara is impacted.

pawprints1986 · Nov 29, 2015

We got really lucky with her numbers *touching wood*.

at first, it looked BAD, but luckily IV treatments did help alot.... and shes eating well now. she did come off her food last friday.... gave her a bit of mirtazapine... and it helped some but not to the degree it did before.... i was concerned a little bit.... but then on wednesday, i started to notice her trying to pee aLOT with only little amounts coming out, and one had some blood which freaked me out. got her in that day, and we had a urinary infection brewing.... which i asked about with the diet and they said that absolutely that could have caused her to not want to eat so much... not a blockage thankfully!! We had JUST had her in for overnight IV fluids... our wallets arent quite ready for that again just yet.

i caught it pretty much as soon as symptoms started to be visible though. even that night with the injection of antibiotic (14 day) and a painkiller (to stop that constant urge), she rested much better and made a normal sized pee later that night.

she started eating well again as soon as the pain killer would have kicked in it seemed. naturally i thought it was just kidney stuff, but there was actually more going on!

CRF/CKD Cat.... food?

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