How Can I Get Grizzly to Gain His Long Lost Weight?

grizzlysapien · Aug 29, 2015

Hello!

Our "patient", Grizzly, is a 17 month old, mixed breed, male neutered cat.. We recently had a severe aggression incident and for the past few weeks I've been getting help, advice and input from respectable members on this thread:

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/302485/my-cat-literally-slashed-my-mother-please-help#post_3794946

The thing is that Grizzly has lost weight. His losing weight was kind of a combination of 2 factors:

Since summer started bringing us heatwaves, Grizzly has been mainly sleeping during daytime and feeds mainly in night time.. Not as equally as he would if it was winter time.
Since the incident (24th-25th of July) he went through a major stress period and he fed even less.. Now, that his stress has reduced significanly, he feeds more often than during the period right after the incident..

I must note that before the incident, Grizzly wasn't neutered. I neutered him a week after (July 30th).. When I took him to the vet for the operation, the vet examined him and concluded that he'd lost weight..

Grizzly's weight varies from 7,2 kilos to 8 kilos, normally.. His highest weight has been during winter, when he feeds more often.. He reached 10 kilos when he was 10 months old.. Until he reached the age of 12 months, he was stable between 7,2-8 kilos.. But he never seemed overweight, even at 10 kilos..

By the time that the vet examined him, he was at 5 kilos..

His body structure is quite slim. He is quite tall and "long".. He is usually heavier than he seems.

I play with him several times a day, especially during winter.. Now, during the summer he plays very early in the morning and after the sun sets.. It's too hot inbetween.. But generally he is very active. He burns anything he eats..

So when the vet told me that he needs to put on some weight, it wasn't an easy task to accomplish. He feeds less during summer and almost exclusively after the sun sets..

I forgot to note that the vet did a blood test on Grizzly and his glucose index was quite high, triggering many of the other indexes to be raised as well.. When I talked about it with the behaviourist (we're having a session on Monday) he and the vet agreed that high glucose was probably due to overstress.. Grizzly hates going to the vet and at the time they drew his blood he was already stressed out, due to the whole situation..

He is going to have a re-run on the blood test in 2-3 weeks..

I don't want to exhaust you with reading endlessly, so I'll just attach in links the posts where I explain what I've been feeding him:

This is the post where I explain what I had been generally been feeding him (food + treats), prior to the incident and his examination:

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/302485/my-cat-literally-slashed-my-mother-please-help/60#post_3800487

This is the post where I explain what I've been feeding him after his examination, my objective being for him to gain weight in a healthy way:

GrizzlySapien said:
Today I gave him Canagan again along with Simpson's Premium, specifically this one:

chicken salmon shrimp-500x500.jpg

grizzlysapien

Aug 2, 2015

(Sorry for the large thumbnails, but I wanted you guys to be able to see the products and read clearly the details)

Also, I do need a high callory food for Grizzly these days, since (as I have mentioned) he has lost weight. So the dryfood I've selected to help him gain weight healthily, is Canagan Free Run Chicken, which is this one:

catchicken.png

grizzlysapien

Aug 2, 2015

I try to maintain a philosophy of "biological suitability" if I might say, regarding his feeding. I am not on the "raw food" side (at least not yet). But I always tried to give him more proteins.

From the Simpson's Premium I've been feeding him, I've given him the kitten kind also

kitten food-500x500.jpg

grizzlysapien
Aug 29, 2015

And the Nature's Menu

pro_162.jpg

grizzlysapien
Aug 29, 2015

And just yesterday I purchased to run a crashtest on Miamor

18647__PLA_rgb_Miamor_Ragout_Royale_in_Jelly_Kitte

grizzlysapien
Aug 29, 2015

The Canagan dry food is suitable for all ages so, my question is more about the canned food. Should I continue giving him the kitten kind along with his regular foor, to give him a "boost"?

white shadow · Aug 29, 2015

GrizzlySapien said:
This is the post where I explain what I've been feeding him after his examination, my objective being for him to gain weight in a healthy way:

Just a heads-up.....

The link you wanted to provide.....does not appear in your post.

grizzlysapien · Aug 29, 2015

White Shadow said:
Just a heads-up.....

The link you wanted to provide.....does not appear in your post.

Yes I know, @White Shadow thanks! I accidentally posted it without having finished..

I also added a poll which got lost somehow - Maybe I will talk with the ModTeam to help me recreate it..

grizzlysapien · Aug 29, 2015

Oh, OK the poll is at the top..

Oh well... Blonde moment(s)...

Columbine · Aug 29, 2015

@GrizzlySapien. I hope adding in some kitten food does the trick for Grizzly. Just go steady in case he finds it too rich. Full fat goats milk could be another useful calorie boost for him too (assuming you can get it at a sensible price).

grizzlysapien · Aug 29, 2015

Thanks for contributing @Columbine

I'll be cautious on giving him some kitten kind.. I already am. I've been giving him some of it every other day in one meal.. So far, I haven't noticed anything wrong with his "going to the bathroom"

but I'll keep it in mind!

Full fat goat's milk seems like a great idea, but he doesn't like milk now that he's all grown up

Guess he thinks he's a big boy for milk..

BUT he does eat yogurt, so maybe I'll check if I can find some yogurt made from goat milk? Will that be as good?

fyllis · Aug 29, 2015

Before even attempting to give an answer to your question, I would have to know more regarding his glucose test results to determine if the hyperglycemia is specific to his the acute episode of stress or if there are other underlying medical conditions that are contributing to the high glucose levels.

Were high sugar levels only found in the blood? Or were they also present in his urine? Did they find any ketones in his urine? And did they do lab tests to measure the amount of fructosamine in his blood?

Because cats have a strong catecholemine response to stress, which leads to stress-induced hyperglycemia, it is extremely important to document glucosusria, as well as his appropriate history. Rarely, cats may have glucosuria secondary to stress-induced hyperglycemia.

Even the stress of being handled at the vet can raise his blood sugar. Personally, I would want to do further testing (periodic fasting blood and urine levels) to establish a sure diagnosis. Has the vet suggested that YOU check for glucosuria or fructosamine in his urine at home in a nonstressful environment?

I'm not doubting your vet, and I don't know the extent of testing that has (or hasn't) been done, but I guess it's just the nurse in me...

"This is my baby and I want to be damned sure what is going on so I can give the best treatment possible"!

I wouldn't want him to be misdiagnosed and have a resulting diagnosis crop up (possible kidney problems?) or to have him on an inappropriate diet that could exacerbate his condition.

On that note, I am stepping back from giving any opinions based on the unknown.

I hope you understand.

grizzlysapien · Aug 29, 2015

@Fyllis He only had his blood tested, not urine. We will repeat his blood test in 2-3 weeks (I have to be able to afford it as well).

My vet had told me that she can't be positively certain on what "high glucose index" might mean. That's why she wanted to do more bloodwork. Nevertheless, she said that the rest of his results didn't raise any concerns on any further health problems..

I have his results, so I can tell you the following:

His Blood Urea was 39 with reference values between 10-30

His Glucose was 250 with reference values between 70-120

His Creatinine was 1,59 with reference values between 0,8-1,9

His Transaminase AST was 28 with reference values between 8-52

His Transaminase ALT was 123 with reference values between 8-52

When I asked the vet, she said that most probably, his Glucose level triggered the other indexes to get high as well.. We will repeat his bloodwork but not yet. I have been trying to help him gain weight, so when we go back, we can have more "clear" results.. More "definite" results.. In order to determine if the diet I've been feeding him is effective. I have to be able to see what helps him. What doesn't help him, I'll eliminate it.

Right now, I keep him on a low fat diet. I want to avoid any additional fats. So, it can't be "wrong". BUT, since he's facing a weight problem, maybe some kitten food given to him, every other day in one meal, will be able to give him a boost.

It's OK if you want to step back, I totally understand! I know where you're coming from. Even the feedback you gave is very useful. Thank you!

LTS3 · Aug 29, 2015

Stress can elevate blood glucose levels in any cat. If you want to determine if your cat may be a juvenile diabetic, ask the vet to run a fructosamine test not a simple quick blood glucose test. Juvenile diabetes is rare but does happen and can be treated with insulin and low carb diet, preferably canned food.

grizzlysapien · Aug 29, 2015

Thanks @LTS3

So, what about the kitten food? Do I give him that, or not? because I am in the process of trying to get him gain some weight..

LTS3 · Aug 29, 2015

GrizzlySapien said:
Thanks @LTS3

So, what about the kitten food? Do I give him that, or not? because I am in the process of trying to get him gain some weight..

The kitten food is fine. Looking at the ingredients, there's nothing high carb in it that would possibly affect blood glucose levels: http://www.simpsonspremium.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=55&product_id=101

grizzlysapien · Aug 29, 2015

Yes, @LTS3 that's why this one is my top choice. Both the kitten and the adult kinds are really well made.

Thanks for the advice!

grizzlysapien · Aug 29, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Handsome Kitty

Kitten food has more fat so it would help him put on weight faster.

I glad Grizzly is playing again. It was sounding very sad at your house for a while with everyone tiptoeing around.

I am quoting @Handsome Kitty's reply on my other thread. I had asked this question before I started this here.

If anyone else is experienced in cat nutrition, I would really appreciate any input on here.. Thanks in advance!

fyllis · Aug 30, 2015

GrizzlySapien said:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Handsome Kitty

Kitten food has more fat so it would help him put on weight faster.

I glad Grizzly is playing again. It was sounding very sad at your house for a while with everyone tiptoeing around.

I am quoting @Handsome Kitty's reply on my other thread. I had asked this question before I started this here.

If anyone else is experienced in cat nutrition, I would really appreciate any input on here.. Thanks in advance!

My two questions this morning are:
How is Grizzly doing to day? and, Is it Monday yet?

I know I said I was going to step back for a bit, but I am still concerned about Grizzly's lab results.

His glucose was elevated, but that doesn't bother me as much right now because there are other factors that could give reason for that such as his being under stress during the test and that it probably was not a fasting test. If he ate within 12 hours prior to the test, his glucose would be up; however, 250 is unreasonably high, regardless.

Although not knowing his full history has a bearing on things, his elevated Transaminase ALT causes me to wonder why your vet hasn't done further testing such as a bile acids tolerance test, urine analysis (which should have been done to determine glucouria), complete blood count tests and a thyroid test. I would think the vet would perform serological tests to rule out conditions like feline infectious peritonitis, feline leukemia virus and the feline immunodeficiency virus to cover all bases.

Benzodiazepines (Xanax) are metabolized in the liver and excreted through the kidneys of a cat. Again, I don't know what Grizzly's history is with the Xanax, so I can't say if that has had any effect on his liver resulting in the lab test such as it is. But, if there is another reason for the elevation, then I certainly wouldn't be adding drugs to his system at this point when there are alternatives.

There are SO many things that need to be taken into consideration and that is why I have been hesitant to say anything. I don't want to 'question' what your vet is or isn't doing.

I suppose, because I am a nurse, it is just my nature to ask a lot of questions. I feel if you don't ask, you never learn. I know when my daughter was young, I drove her Pediatrician nuts with all my questions. But, I don't regret asking a single one! As her parent, it was ultimately MY responsibility to get the answers.

I do the same with my two cats and because of that, I probably caught a serious mistake that could have caused injury to Keeker the last time he was in to see his vet!

When I took him in for the infection he got from Kricket biting him, he was given TresaDerm drops for dermatitis resulting from the bite. The vet wrote the prescription for drops to be applied A.U. (bilateral ears); however, when the assistant gave me the Rx and explained how to use them (which, thankfully, I already knew!), she instructed me to apply 3-5 drops to each EYE! (O.U.) She read the doctors order incorrectly and had I followed her instructions it could have caused serious eye damage!

Knowledge IS powerful!

At any rate, let me continue on with my answer(s) to your question(s)...

Please know this is strictly MY OPINION and NOT a specific recommendation! I urge you to talk with your vet before doing any dietary changes.

OK, even though I feel Grizzly should have a glucosuria level done(as well as the liver tests!), I will say that with the information you have given, and if I were in your position, I would give a low carb/high animal protein and fat diet (Go short-term with the fat. This is just to promote weight-gain, not become a habit).

Most CANNED cat foods generally meet the requirements. Avoid cat foods containing rice and corn starch as they have a high glycemic index.

Semi moist foods (this would include commercial treats - read the labels!) are not a good choice of diet for diabetic cats. These foods often contain a relatively high sugar content.

Avoid high fiber. High amounts of fiber in the diet can affect the absorption and metabolism of glucose and fat in the diet. The fiber will slow glucose absorption from the digestive tract so there is not a high peak in blood glucose level right after eating. High fiber diets also promote weight loss. To be most effective, diets with high fiber must also contain significant amounts of complex carbohydrates. (These diets can decrease the need for insulin). High fiber diets can result in an increase in intestinal gas, an increase in the frequency and amount of stool produced, result in bulky or loose stools, and may not be as palatable as other diets.

Also, avoid table scraps. Cats are cats - not humans. So stick to a diet that is beneficial!

While I give my boys free-fed dry kibbles (yea, I'm lazy, I admit it!), I also provide them with canned food to ensure they are getting adequate fluids (they also have a fountain for water instead of just a water dish. They love it and drink more!

Store bought treats are expensive and tend to have sugar and a lot of 'unnecessary crap' in them, so I do make them homemade treats and meals several times a week.

When cooking for cats, use the less-lean products or add refrigerated chicken fat, beef tallow or suet. Avoid products that have had chemicals added to allow unrefrigerated storage (propyl gallate, BHA, etc.) or those that have nitrites added.

Ground chicken has about 1% fat. You can give Grizzly steamed chicken (not fried!), but you might want to add some diced dark leg meat, hearts and gizzard for added taurine. Too much fat in the diet can cause greasy stools. It will also contribute to obesity and it is thought to be a predisposing cause of pancreatitis.

Because toxic chemicals and heavy metal concentrations in fish are unpredictable, I limit fish-containing meals to two days or less per week. I avoid feeding canned tuna. I have found that cats that eat a lot of it, soon will eat nothing else and do not seem to thrive. Most cats love fish-flavor cat foods. However the portions of the fish that end up in cat food can be the ones too high in iodine. When my boys do get fish, it is steamed salmon; raw fish can also be high in thiaminase leading to a B-1 vitamin deficiency. I avoid tuna due to the high murcury content.

The protein in eggs is very high in quality - higher than that of meat, poultry or fish. It is also the most easily digested protein source. The protein in eggs is more available to your pet when the eggs are cooked (I give hard boiled eggs cooked about 12 minutes) rather than fed raw.

Talk with your vet! Don't be hesitatnt to ask questions. Don't be hesitant to get a second opinion! (especially if your vet is not forthcoming with all the answers).

Why are you doing this?
Is it mandatory this be done?
Why aren't you doing this?
What results should I expect?
What are the possible negative effects?
What are the alternatives? (medications vs behavior training)
Explain these tests to me.
What exactly are you looking for?
Should any of the tests be done or redone while he is fasting?
Can I obtain samples for future tests at home? (urine)
Can I get some testing supplies to test him at home?
What can "I" do?
What is the exact diagnosis?
What else is going on and will he fully recover?
What is the possibility of this leading to other complications?
What should I look for? (positive and negative)
When does he need to be seen again?
What will be done during his follow-up visit(s)?
What can I do for him at home?
What is the preferred diet right now?
How can I introduce a new diet without causing him more stress?
What should he NOT eat?
When should I change his diet again - if at all?

I know you are a great Cat Mom and I am not slighting you or what you have and are doing so, please, do not feel insulted! I think you are doing great! I am just making suggestions based on what I would do in your situation.

Keep up the good work and keep us posted!

Hugs to you and Grizzly from me and the boys.

grizzlysapien · Aug 30, 2015

@Fyllis Just to be clear - I asked for your opinion and for what you would do if you were in my shoes.. Not only YOU but everyone that might be reading this. So, I am not insulted in any way! I am grateful for your detailed contribution!

You recommended this:

if I were in your position, I would give a low carb/high animal protein and fat diet (Go short-term with the fat. This is just to promote weight-gain, not become a habit).

Most CANNED cat foods generally meet the requirements. Avoid cat foods containing rice and corn starch as they have a high glycemic index.

I must remind you that this IS the basis of Grizzly's diet. I stay away from carbohydrates and sugars, as well as unnecessary fats. I combine dry + wet food that contain more protein and less fiber (grain free etc).

Regarding his treats, to make it clear, they do not come out of a bag. I usually steam chicken or turkey. SOMETIMES I give him turkey slices (the ones we use on sandwiches), the kind with no glutein (it's the same I eat myself). He HATES livers, so I cannot give him any.. I'm counting on his dry+wet food to get his taurine.

His dry food is high on carbs, as well.. And the only extra I wanted to add (and I did) was the kitten food of the same wet-food brand I've been giving him. I give him the kitten food in only one meal, every other day. So, to keep those "extra" fats under control. I don't want to "shock" his system, since he's been in a mostly "free-fat" diet.

Regarding the vet:

She did recommend extra tests at first, just to be on the safe side. He will take them in the next 2-3 weeks. As I said above, I wanted first to see what I could accomplish with his diet and get him to gain some weight.

This vet is not on my "favorites' list" right now, cause every question I tried to ask, she'd be too busy or too tired to answer.. I am like you. I break peoples' balls with questions (no offense and excuse my language!

)

And you're right. The only way to get answers is to ask questions.

She did try to avoid prescribing him Xanax. BUT the behaviourist was the one who persuaded her to prescribe them, cause we needed Grizzly to calm down a bit, the 1st few days..

They co-decided that, based on his results.

Grizzly rejected any food that contained Xanax - I managed to give him some pills for 4-5 days. I then quit trying. Besides he had already started to improve, so I thought it was better to stop. So, he didn't take in that much of Xanax (hopefully).

He never ate anything fried, nothing unhealthy (I am talking about before + after his tests), no commercial treats etc.

As for table scraps, well.. he climbs on the table while we eat and steals food from our plates when he likes the food itself. He doesn't steal anything "fried" though.. We eat a lot of steamed chicken and turkey in this house, actually so, it's almost everyday that there will be something suitable for him to eat

He eats fish as well (steamed or cooked in the oven - no spices, or herbs) but not often.

Overall he eats mostly meat. Not fibers, veggies, sugars, fats etc. He never did actually. Oh! And Greek yogurt. He likes it.

So, adding some kitten food that has a bit more fat (but not tons of it), seems like a good idea?

fyllis · Aug 30, 2015

He really seems to be doing very well. Of course, he has a very wonderful Mom who is doing more for him than a lot of people do for their own children! LOL

I just know that I would be doing the same thing for either/both of my boys. They are so

spoiled rotten that if they were eggs I would to throw them away!

Be sure to ask the Behaviorist tomorrow (Yeaaaa! It's amost Monday!) if he feels Feliway would be more beneficial than Xanax. I'm just not in favor of giving pills (especially narcotics). I was a nurse for 22 years and it's just not my 'thing' to do when there are so many different alternatives... like the Feliway. Google 'pet essences for cats' - there are homeopathic solutions out there that don't have the side effects of 'drugs'. Atmosphere helps too. Sometimes throughout the day (on those days Keeker has his 'fur up') I will draw the curtains closed a bit to dim the light, turn off the TV and computer and turn on some 'relaxation music'. He loves soundtracks of 'nature' with birds chirping etc. He curls up on the couch or somewhere nearby while I read a book. During those 'quiet moments' he seems more open to mild affection and bonding. Of course, I always keep one eye open and the water bottle handy. And I have noticed that I don't even have to squirt the bottle (rarely) because as soon as he sees it he will shake his head (as if he just got wet) and stop misbehaving.

While I don't personally use Feliway (I have heard from friends it's really good, though!), I do use lavender scent in my home. Candles, satchets, oils, etc.

I wish Greece wasn't so darned far away from here! I would love to come spend an afternoon with you and Grizzly and maybe bring the boys! LMAO! Wouldn't THAT be an adventure!

Looking forward to what tomorrow brings!

LTS3 · Aug 30, 2015

Fyllis said:
Semi moist foods (this would include commercial treats - read the labels!) are not a good choice of diet for diabetic cats.

Also, avoid table scraps. Cats are cats - not humans. So stick to a diet that is beneficial!

Commerical 100% freeze dried meat or fish/seafood treats are fine for a diabetic cat

There are others. See this list: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/list-of-low-carb-healthy-treats.9172/ The list is somewhat old so some brands may not be available anymore or the ingredients have changed so the treats are no longer diabetic-friendly (such as the listed Poultry Crispies - they have molasses and honey now). Definiley check the website of the company that makes the treat for an updated ingredient list. I'm not sure if any of these listed brands are available in Greece but there may be something similar you can find.

Small pieces of plain cooked meat, even raw meat, are fine as treats.

grizzlysapien · Oct 20, 2015

Thank you all for your input

DSC_4198.jpg

grizzlysapien
Oct 20, 2015

Maybe you can't tell the difference.. Believe me, I can tell when I pick him up!

fyllis · Oct 20, 2015

GrizzlySapien said:
Maybe you can't tell the difference.. Believe me, I can tell when I pick him up!

What a gorgeous picture! He is so beautiful!

grizzlysapien · Oct 20, 2015

Thank you, @Fyllis!

Also, when the vet neutered him, she shaved him under his chin - I think she put the IV there? something that had to do with the operation - can't remember. Those hairs took so much time to grow back..!

How Can I Get Grizzly to Gain His Long Lost Weight?

Should I feed him "kitten" kind of foods along with his regular food?

Definitely Yes, it helps!

No Way! Stick to his regular food. It takes time for a cat to gain weight.

Be cautious..

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