Help Finding good foods for IBD cat!

First time poster here!  I am really at my wits end trying to find a good food for my cat who was diagnosed with either IBD or Lymphoma.  He was prescribed Hills Science Diet  z/d dry food at first, but since then I have done tons of research and had him on the wet Z/D for a while until I realized the main ingredient was Chicken Liver and it also had corn in it.  Both not super great.  The chicken liver is probably okay but I have read that you're not supposed to feed them too much liver.  So feeding this as a staple food to me wouldn't be practical.  There is also the fact that my cat is SUPER picky and gets tired of eating one thing all the time..so i'm in the process of trying to find him some good quality foods for IBD that don't have the gums/caragreenan(sp?).  He really liked Weruva Pumpkin Jack Splash but once I read a review a lady had up on amazon that said her cat pretty much got kidney failure from eating that food, it just makes me want to throw it out and not look at again.  I have some Ziwi Peak Venison canned food but he didn't seem to take very well to it even though it was the best thing I could find, but even after doing some research on that i'm not sure that is a good choice either because of the agar-agar which from when I looked it up it said it was basically carageenan.  So I guess my question is what the heck do I feed my poor cat?!  

I know i'm probably a little crazy with all the research and freaking myself out, but I really want to feed my cat whats best and making the food myself really isn't possible.  I heard about Radcat being a good choice, but i'm not sure how I feel about feeding a pure raw diet either. 

Any help is appreciated!! 

What works for an IBD kitty is really individual to the kitty both in terms of what agrees with kitty and what kitty will eat. 

Generally you want to feed something that is as close to just the meat, liver and supplements as possible.  It's usually a good idea to start with what is termed a novel protein, one that kitty hasn't eaten before.  Stick to one food for a while to be sure that it is one that kitty can and will eat then try another protein.

I don't know what your budget is but Nature's Variety LTD is a good one and comes in some of the proteins that are unusual in pet foods. 

Wild Calling and Hounds and Gatos are good but they do have more thickeners in them than the Nature's Variety.  Some kitties have issues with thickeners and others don't.

Welcome to the Cat Site, @Luckycharm! I'm sorry, though, to hear about what you're going through with your cat.

I couldn't agree more with all of @Denice's advice, particularly that finding foods for IBD cats is a very individual thing. Do you have any inkling at all of what's causing your cat's symptoms? Our previous cat, for example, did better when we took all the grains and fish out of her diet but I didn't figure that out until I started keeping a diary with details about food, vomiting, and litter box offerings.

If you think gums and/or carrageenan are causing your cat's problems, you could try the Nature's Variety Instinct foods that Denice mentioned. It's good food and something like venison might be new and exciting for your cat. Our cats don't like NVI (they're not big on pates) but many love it and do extremely well on it. There's also Tiki Cat, which makes great shredded food without thickeners, though most of them are fish- or chicken-based... and fish and chicken are common triggers for IBD, and lots of people, me included, don't like to feed much fish. Even so, if you're pretty sure your cat doesn't have a problem with fish or chicken, Tiki could be a great place to start because it lacks thickeners and carby vegetables. (One of our cats is sensitive to potato, so I'm always railing on potato fillers in canned foods!) Tiki does have some Gourmet Carnivore foods with beef, lamb, and liver, though I'm with you about not feeding too much liver.

As for raw food, Rad Cat is great food: our cats love their chicken and turkey. Our previous cat ate it in her last months and it seemed to agree with her pretty well; it was one of the few things she'd consistently eat. If you think you're even remotely interested in feeding raw foods, it might be worth posting in the raw/home-cooked food section of the Nutrition Forum: you'll get a lot of advice there. I'll just say this about raw food here: a large portion of our cats' diet is freeze-dried raw food, most of which is treated for bacteria, doesn't take up freezer space, and appeals to our picky cats, who have tender stomachs and demand a lot of variety in their diet. Not all cats like freeze-dried foods but ours do really well on a combination of various freeze-dried raw, Rad Cat, and canned foods.

Good luck! We went through a lot with our previous cat, who was too frail to be properly diagnosed for IBD and/or lymphoma but most likely had both. I hope you're able to find something your cat likes that agrees with him!

Hello and welcome, also!

I would have to agree with Denice and LiseHe, they are great advisors, as are everyone on this site. Their advice has helped me so much with my guy's diagnosis of IBD also. 

From what I understand, IBD is such a frustrating, strange disease. I think most of the cats who are very finicky and fussy with food are experiencing it~~~~~~Just my opinion. 

But it seems the fussier they are, then they eventually end up with IBD. It could be Nature's way or the cat's way of telling us that their food is upsetting to them. 

You can follow my threads.. There are many of them. I do write a lot. 

The people here are so helpful. You came to the right spot. 

The most important thing to I can advise you to do is:  try, I mean try to tell yourself  to relax a bit. Once you get the inflammation calmed down with meds and a change in diet, things should improve. Maybe not to the point where it was before, but it can improve. 

Yes, switch to a novel protein. My guy seemed to like Nature's Variety. That is a very good product. Right now Artie is eating Pride Rabbit. This line of food, while not a single protein, is something he likes. It is rabbit and pork. It is also a line from Natures Variety. A lot of people raw feed. That is not for me.. so I am choosing canned. 

I discovered, on my own, that his vomiting was related to chicken. As soon as I took chicken away, he stopped vomiting..fingers crossed. For me that has been since the end of May. 

Before you get yourself crazy, there are 2 schools of thought on what to feed IBD cats. 

One is to stick with one novel protein. Many times, the cat may suddenly become have a reaction to that specific protein..like a acquired allergy. That is the time to switch to a different  novel protein..if you give many, you may run the rise of having a reaction and not knowing which food it is. 

Two, feed novel proteins. Give a variety of proteins which would minimize the chance of getting an allergy to one specific one. This is a newer and controversial apprach.  

Whichever one you and your Vet decide on is, IMO , a shot in the dark. No one really understands all the mechanisms of IBD.  I have gone through so many ups and downs with my guy.

This is a frustrating disease, with many ups and downs. You have to find the correct mix of both food and medications  for your baby. 

They do have flairs. I am not sure if I experienced one lately or not. Personally, I think it was Artie getting sick of just one type of food. 

I sound as if I know everything about IBD. I do not. I am so new at this....I read a lot and ask a lot of questions. 

I did have my guy go thru the ultrasound and the endoscopic biopsy. 

I do see a specialist in internal medicine, in addition to my regular Vet who is there for all other matters. I am fortunate to be within driving distance of 2 Animal Hospitals. Reminds me I have to go pick up a refill of Artie's steroids...

Any more questions, ask away!!
People here are great! I am glad I found this site...

Good Luck!

Luckycharm said:

 
I have some Ziwi Peak Venison canned food but he didn't seem to take very well to it even though it was the best thing I could find, but even after doing some research on that i'm not sure that is a good choice either because of the agar-agar which from when I looked it up it said it was basically carageenan.  So I guess my question is what the heck do I feed my poor cat?!  

I know i'm probably a little crazy with all the research and freaking myself out, but I really want to feed my cat whats best and making the food myself really isn't possible.  I heard about Radcat being a good choice, but i'm not sure how I feel about feeding a pure raw diet either. 

Any help is appreciated!! 

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Luckycharm,

I'm sorry you are having trouble feeding your little IBD guy, I empathize, my Mikey has IBD although he has been asymptomatic for quite some time now.

And you are not crazy at all, btw, for taking time to research the best possible diet for your kitty, rather than just settling for whatever and having a kitty on meds for the rest of his life.

I agree with Denise, LisaHE and Artiemom re: their suggestions.  As far as NV,  the Instinct line is entirely gum free (versus Pride which contains both guar and xanthan gums, although they are at the bottom of the ingredient list). Still, however, if possible you may want to consider avoiding gums altogether.

My cats were on Ziwi Peak for a bit, I wanted it to work, however, with that agar agar both had stinky stools and Mikey with his IBD, for all of ZP's meat based ingredients, his stools looked like mounds of Play-Doh.

Both my cats are mostly commercially raw fed although we still have Instinct canned as a back up.   The ones they like (and stools are okay) are: LID rabbit, LID pork, non-LID rabbit (contains pork liver) and duck / turkey.   In addition to Instinct's LID rabbit and LID pork, they make LID turkey, LID lamb and LID duck as well in canned formulas.

These foods are 95% meat, fairly low carb and high moisture.

While NV is expensive, I found it less so than ZP. Also if you shop around, the prices vary. Chewy has pretty decent prices for NV. 

As far as raw feeding, I spent several months researching everything I could re: raw.  Maybe it's not something you are comfortable with now, however, there is no deadline, when or if you ever do decide to go down that road.  One site I found very helpful (in addition to TCS), is feline-nutrition.org.

Regardless, even on Instinct canned, my cat's stools, esp Mikey's, were in far better shape than when they were eating the following canned foods: Natural Balance, ZP, Weruva, Wellness.

Sometimes I wish I could find other canned alternatives that are gum free but shredded or non-pate meats, however, other than Tiki Cat Gourmet, which is mostly chicken based (other than their beef & liver and beef & lamb) foods, Instinct is the only gum free food I've found, other than Nature's Logic (which didn't go over well with the kids).

I hope this helps. I'm sure it will work out, it takes some trial and error but give yourself a nice pat on the back for going the extra mile for your fur-kid.

Wow!  I wasn't expecting such a response to my questions so I thank all of you guys very much for your help!! 

I guess I should have explained myself a little more and told you a little more about my cat too before going into everything.  My cat (Poke') was diagnosed with IBD or lymphoma back in April.  The vet did an x-ray on him and he had the thickening of the intestines and at the time the vet I had then told me that it wouldn't be wrong for me to put my cat down.  I thought he was insane!!  I didn't feel that my cat was in such bad shape that he needed to be put down so i decided to go the course of the pred's and feed him the z/d diet which he did well on for a while and then started having symptoms and flare ups again, plus he started to hate his food so that is when I bought him the Weruva tuna and pumpkin (because I heard pumpkin is good for tummies) and the Ziwi Peak.  He devoured the Tuna and Pumpkin for about a week.  I also bought him some Tiki Cat to try because I heard that one was good as well, he hated it...he would nibble it and then leave so I had to give that case of food to my sister. 

After doing some research, I found out about Weruva putting Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex in all of their seafood based products which was a huge no no because it could cause a number of problems in your cat, so i've stopped feeding him that all together.  He liked the Ziwi Peak for about two days and then would not touch it....so I let him try some of his z/d again and now he's back to eating that since that is the only thing I have in my pantry that he will eat even though i'm not really comfortable with him eating it. 

I looked up the Natures LID foods and ordered him the Turkey and the Rabbit kinds in hopes that he will like those.  I would love to be able to stick to one food for a while but my cat seems to only like it when I feed him a variety of things and he gets sick of eating the same one every day so hopefully at least sticking to one certain brand will help.  I was iffy about the Peas and Salt in the food, but I figure Peas and Salt are better options then having any types of gums in his food.  I'll give these a go and see if his symptoms improve.  He's been having diarrhea, but the pumpkin seemed to help that  a little.  My main concern is keeping some weight on him.  He'd dropped down to 6.4 pounds but since I think he's back up to 7.  I know it's going to be a long process and a gradual thing, but i'm willing to do whatever it takes to help him!  

Also, I think chicken may be a trigger for him because since i've been feeding him the z/d canned again....he vomited once and pooped on my carpet yesterday which he rarely does, so here's hoping Chewy sends me the new foods fast since he won't eat anything else right now.   

Wow, Luckycharm, thanks for providing the background on Poke's condition.

I can't believe the vet suggested putting him down?!

You are doing a great job, regardless of whether Poke stays on his medication for as long as needed, because sometimes even the best diets cannot alleviate IBD symptoms in some cats, you are really trying your best, Poke is a very lucky kitty.

It's too bad that you could not have sampled individual cans of Instinct instead of buying cases. Instinct does offer 100% guarantee on their products and Chewy is good as well so if it doesn't work out, hopefully you can get an exchange or refund.

There aren't that many peas in Instinct, I pick them out before serving, at least the peas are whole and visible versus other brands that not only use peas but pea flour.

I don't like the addition of salt in the food either.

Have you researched pork at all for Poke? It is sometimes the misunderstood meat, pork is actually lean, fairly easy to digest and palatable - I have read about some IBD cats on pork who do well on this protein.

I still have Mikey on pork (although commercial raw) but he will also eat Instinct's LID pork.

I too am very surprised that a vet suggested euthanasia at this point.  IBD is a frustrating disease to manage and can be progressive but your kitty is no where near the point of considering euthanasia. 

Poke is a very lucky cat! What, by the way, was he eating that was bothering him *before* he had the x-rays? I'm just curious: might there be anything in common with the z/d food that seems to be bothering him? Maybe chicken? Or corn? I also wonder about the cellulose in the z/d. Also, did Poke's system do okay with the Weruva tuna/pumpkin food? I don't mean to be nosy, it's just always great to know what does and doesn't seem to bother a cat!

I hope the NVI food works out for him. LisaMarie12 is right about picking out the peas: I'm very pea-averse when it comes to cat food but NVI's low-carb and the peas are pretty easy to pick out of that food. And I agree that pork may be worth a try.

I'm so glad you didn't have Poke euthanized! I think a lot of vets don't understand IBD at all. Our previous cat's vets were totally clueless about her digestive problems for years--several at the practice told us they were either nothing to worry about or impossible to figure out--but the happy side of things is that she lived to be at least 17, despite probable IBD and probable lymphoma, plus definite mild kidney and thyroid problems, and a hellacious heart murmur that scared every vet that listened to her heart the first time. 

So, first step: fingers crossed that the NVI food helps!

I honestly could not believe the vet suggested I put Poke down either, but maybe he felt that due to the xray the condition was bad?  I'm not very sure...all I know is that I left the vet's office that day in tears.  I found it a little strange that a couple weeks later when I called to make a follow up appt, they told me that vet was no longer there.  The new vet I have seems to really want to try to do what is best for Poke.  The only option I had with him is xrays at the vet I go to.  I live in a small town and they don't have access to an Ultrasound machine, so i'd have to drive 2 or 3 hours if I wanted to do that for him. 

My cat has always had issues with vomiting since he was young, but every time I took him to the vet and told them about it..they didn't seem to be worried so I tried not to be worried about it either.  I honestly think the problem is that i've been feeding my cat dry food all of his life, but it seemed like every time I'd tried to feed him canned food as soon as he was done he would always throw it up so I never saw it as much of an option...but back then I didn't know anything about cat nutrition or what to feed a cat really.  I figured Science Diet and Purina food was a good choice for him so he'd been on that for most of his life up until now. 

He'd been acting a little funny last year....and he'd started pooping on the carpets...but I just figured at first it was because we'd just moved into a new house and he was having trouble transitioning.  He'd been losing some weight, but not enough that I felt I needed to be alarmed...but in April it seemed like he just did a quick drop and was vomiting a few times a day, pooping on the carpets more and losing weight fast which is when I made an appt with the vet ASAP and learned what I know now.  

On the semi bright side of things, his blood work as always been perfect....so he's never had issues with that, and when I took him a month ago they did another xray and he'd improved quite a bit from his last one as far as the thickening/inflammation goes. The dr had him on predisolone(sp) twice a day at .5, but since then i've been weening him off a little myself because it gave him REALLY bad diarrhea and I wasn't comfortable with him taking such a high dose.  

LisaHE, he did pretty well on the Tuna I think.  He never had bathroom issues and wasn't throwing up when he was eating that, but I'm not really comfortable giving him that anymore, plus the fact that feeding him an all fish diet would not be a good thing because of the high levels of mercury. 

I hadn't thought about giving him Pork, but I may try that as well if he doesn't like the other kinds, but i'm really hoping that he does!  My only concern is him getting tired of the foods and not wanting them any more so I may have to end up changing the flavor every now and then anyway. 

I really do appreciate everyone's suggestions and thoughts and experiences with their own cats!  It makes me hopeful that my cat still has a few years left in him.  He just turned 14 at the end of June but I was not expecting to lose him this quickly! 

I am hoping that getting him on a better diet and the medicine will help him. 

I also thought about trying some kind of probiotic as well for him but wasn't sure.  I'd heard things about Vitality Science but it's very pricey and i'm not sure their products would even work. 

Your story about Poke is so much like ours about Brooksie--her symptoms were very similar, the vets were totally unconcerned, and we didn't know how to feed a cat properly. I wish I hadn't learned about cat nutrition the hard way. I have to be quick for now but wanted to mention a few things:

-Poke's good blood work is a great sign! (Our cat had bad white blood cell counts, indicating lymphoma)

-Very interesting that Poke vomited when you switched him to wet food. In Brooksie's case, her symptoms eased considerably considerably in her last months by just switching her to grain-free foods (she'd absolutely loved some of those Fancy Feast canned foods loaded with wheat gluten... I think they didn't agree with her at all!) but it sounds like you've already tried that with Poke.

-Interesting, too, about tuna not bothering him since fish is often problematic. I feed very little of it to our new cats and don't feed them anything at all with menadione. I just don't trust the stuff! Even so, at least you know that food worked for him, which is a positive thing.

Thanks for all those details... those often help us come up with ideas!

Here's hoping the NVI and medication help.

Hope the NV ltd ingredient helps also. Good luck finding the pork. I find it is not stocked in our local stores. 

The probiotic my Vet has prescribed is: Proviable.  You can order it from Amazon or Chewy. One capsule a day, either mixed with food or given whole. I am not sure it helps my guy. 

I was advised to stay away from Forti-Flora because it contains 'animal digest', which no one really knows what that consists of. 

It is is a food allergy, you want to know what you are giving your baby. 

If you are in a more rural area, you probably do not have much access to a variety of pet stores for variety.  I believe there is a website named: Only Natural Pets. I think you can order individual cans of food, to try; before you order a case. I think Chewy has the best prices on cases. 

Good Luck!

Originally Posted by Luckycharm  

I am hoping that getting him on a better diet and the medicine will help him. 

I also thought about trying some kind of probiotic as well for him but wasn't sure.  I'd heard things about Vitality Science but it's very pricey and i'm not sure their products would even work. 

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Yes, a better diet along with the medication will likely help.

I am all for probiotics, I noticed a difference when I was using a probiotic, it really helped my little IBD guy, I used it in both my cats food.

Probiotics can be expensive. I had went through several bottles of Animal Essentials, however, which is affordable:

http://www.chewy.com/dog/animal-ess...ls&utm_term=&gclid=CJGB7cujtccCFZMWHwodUloPSQ

While it may not be as good as Vitality Science, it served its' purpose. 

Thank you guys!  I will take a look at those probiotics and look into getting one for him! 

LisaHE, I am really sorry to hear about Brooksie!  She was lucky to have you though because it seems like you were doing everything you could for her as well, just like I am trying to do with Poke.  I won't give my cat Fancy Feast, he's never had it.  To me it doesn't seem very nutritional and it's filled with the gums and caragreenan.  I've looked for a good one and I couldn't find any here that I liked. 

As far as pet stores go, there is only one in town called Petsense.  I spent about 2 hours in there one day looking through every single can of cat food they had to try to find a good one, and the only one I could find was an Earthborn Holistic one....so that is when I took my research to Chewy.  Haha. 

I am really hoping the LID works for him too!  I should get it on Friday so i'm crossing my fingers that he likes them because I can't keep feeding him the z/d.  He had another vomiting episode at 6am this morning.    I really don't know if it's the chicken liver or the fact that it has corn it in.  I'm leaning more towards the corn but just in case i'm going to not feed him anything chicken based once I get the other food if I can help it. 

I did look at the only natural pets website and unfortunately they did not have the LID cans there.    It's okay though, i'm sure whatever my cat doesn't like....my sisters cat will so I know the food won't go to waste at least. 

Sorry for such a short reply but I have to head back to work!  Thank you guys again for all the info and help!! 

Would just like to say that several of the ZP foods were a bit too "gamey" for my last rainbow kitty, who had several digestive issues. Any venison or rabbit made her sick. However, she did okay with ZP Lamb... along with NV Lamb... until all she could eat near the end, despite some of the things in it which I didn't like, was Wellness Core Chicken, Turkey & Chicken Liver.

I think that might be whats wrong with why he's not liking the ziwi.  Maybe the venison isn't agreeing with him.     I did actually buy him some of the ziwi lamb as well as the LID ones in hopes that he'll at least like one or two of those!  Haha!  Maybe i'll get lucky and he'll like all three and I can switch them around every once in a while and figure out which works best for him.  Here's hoping!  Thanks for the help! 

Luckycharm said:

LisaHE, I am really sorry to hear about Brooksie!  She was lucky to have you though because it seems like you were doing everything you could for her as well, just like I am trying to do with Poke.  I won't give my cat Fancy Feast, he's never had it.  To me it doesn't seem very nutritional and it's filled with the gums and caragreenan.  I've looked for a good one and I couldn't find any here that I liked. 

...

I am really hoping the LID works for him too!  I should get it on Friday so i'm crossing my fingers that he likes them because I can't keep feeding him the z/d.  He had another vomiting episode at 6am this morning.    I really don't know if it's the chicken liver or the fact that it has corn it in.  I'm leaning more towards the corn but just in case i'm going to not feed him anything chicken based once I get the other food if I can help it. 

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Thank you, Luckycharm! Brooksie had a good long life despite all her health problems and she was truly a wonderful cat. At least what I learned about food, though too late for her except in a palliative sense, has been very helpful for our new cats, who have rather sensitive stomachs, too!

My bet on the z/d would be the corn, too, though matters of IBD can be difficult to sort through! In Brooksie's case, the first thing I did was remove all the grains, which was an improvement, then started the food diary and figured out that fish was probably a problem for her, too. And I did stop feeding her Fancy Feast, both the ones with grain and the ones without; she was sensitive to something in those, too, because she vomited when she ate them. 

Here's hoping that Chewy.com shipment has something Poke will like and be able to eat!

Today has been a bad day for Poke.    He hasn't eaten much and I got him some of the lamb ziwi peak air dried food to try.  I only gave him a few pieces and almost immediately after eating them he threw them up.  I mixed in some of the lamb wet food with the z/d wet and he only ate a few bites and then wanted nothing else to do with it.  I get the Instinct LID tomorrow and if he doesn't like those or throws those up, i'm not sure what else to do.  I don't want to give up on him, but since he's back to throwing up things again i'm beginning to wonder if it's lymphoma.  He has an appt Tuesday and i'm really considering asking my vet to recommend a vet a few hours away and taking him there for an ultrasound to see if they can see anything more and see if it's actually ibd or cancer.  This really sucks.  I am sorry to turn a nutritional question into health issues.    I really don't want to lose Poke.   

I'm so sorry to hear yesterday was such a rough day for Poke! I hope today's off to a better start and the Instinct food entices him. It can be so hard to know what to do in these situations -- I remember going through this, too.

Let us know what happens. Maybe if the Instinct food doesn't work there's something from the past (like the Weruva pouch food) that didn't make him vomit that he could and would eat? I know the Weruva isn't optimal because it's tuna (and has menadione, too) but if at this point the most important thing is for him to eat, maybe it's worth trying? Also, have you tried using toppers on his food? Sometimes something like crumbled treats or chunks of freeze-dried food can really help get a cat to eat something.

I'm no help on diagnostics because Brooksie was too frail for them but perhaps someone else has some thoughts on that.

Good luck. We all know what you're going through -- it's not easy.

Luckycharm said:

 
Today has been a bad day for Poke.    He hasn't eaten much and I got him some of the lamb ziwi peak air dried food to try.  I only gave him a few pieces and almost immediately after eating them he threw them up.  I mixed in some of the lamb wet food with the z/d wet and he only ate a few bites and then wanted nothing else to do with it.  I get the Instinct LID tomorrow and if he doesn't like those or throws those up, i'm not sure what else to do.  I don't want to give up on him, but since he's back to throwing up things again i'm beginning to wonder if it's lymphoma.  He has an appt Tuesday and i'm really considering asking my vet to recommend a vet a few hours away and taking him there for an ultrasound to see if they can see anything more and see if it's actually ibd or cancer.  This really sucks.  I am sorry to turn a nutritional question into health issues.    I really don't want to lose Poke.   

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I'm sorry to hear about Poke.  I agree with LisaHE, kitty needs to eat first and foremost. The longer a cat goes without eating, the less inclined they are to eat. I would give your vet a call this morning (if you haven't already) and ask what he would advise, if there is something to control the vomiting at least until you can get Poke to the specialist you mentioned.

Sometimes a bit of meat baby food can help jump start the appetite, a temporary fix only because obviously it's not complete and balanced but for the sake of getting something into Poke's tummy, if he can tolerate it. Chicken or turkey baby food, check the ingredients - no spices (yes, some 2nd stage baby foods have spices).

The toppers LisaHE mentioned may also help -- freeze dried chicken or turkey.

Do give your vet a call today, however, and see what he suggests.

I empathize with what you are going through, this will get worked out I'm sure but it's certainly hard when you are going through it.