35 days old already separated from her mother issues

anas9 · Jul 6, 2015

Hello,

we just brought 2 kittens from someone that i later realized is a breeder (

) and has no mercy nor knowledge about animals.

one of the kittens is 65 days old. however the second is only 35

. as far as i know that's too early to seperate a kitten from her mother. but it happened and no way around it now. i have no plants on returning him to that man. i would rather help him adjust and live a good life.

we are facing several issues in caring for the little one and i am trying to make up for any losses or mistreatment he may have gotten. by mistreatment i mean, the breeder not understanding the nutritions such a young kitten needs.

This is how we picked him up. he told us he is litter box trained, however he does have several accidents per day, both urine and number 2!

he told us she is used to Wiskas canned food. i read that this food is not good for a kitten his age and i am trying to remedy that. i just bought milk replacer (powder milk, pricey, but worth it if it will please the kitten and is good for him).

what should i do, i tried to move the kitten away from the canned in case he doesn't like it, and bought a wiskas Junior bag, sprayed a bit of water on the dry food. both kittens hated it, they ate a bit when i put it on the plate then stopped. and refused to eat it later, they preferred to stay hungry than eat it. so that bag is going down the chute. this is what i got them next. they seem to like it. http://www.dubaipetfood.com/shop/royal-canin-kitten-10031p.html

i also just switched them both to crystal type of litter sand. here is my observation so far

1- the big one sat on it twice but didn't go. i wil check in 1-2 hours to check if he used it.

2- the little one may have an issue with it. the crystals got stuck on his mouth. out on his lips and between his front teeth. note that this happened 5 minutes after i gave him a bath, i am not sure if that is related, but i am worried about him.

Also, note that i have yet to see the little one play. he got excited over a feather today. but he was not in a good mood to continue because he was hungry.

the above is just to put you in my shoes to understand how all my questions came up.....

Questions

1- how do we train the kittens on the new litter box and sand type (crystals)

2- should i use the formula milk and stop food on the little one, or is it too later now since he already started eating wet food?

3- i read about mixing the milk with his food. is this good advice? the milk comes with a kit for feeding him.

4- do kittens like semi dark or bright area for the litter box? should i move it to the bathroom. right now it's in a semi dark spot of the house that the little one likes to sleep in.

5- is it normal for a 35 days old kitten not to play at all. the older one plays a lot.

6- the little one's tail is almost 90 degrees with a twist at the end. it's the last 1 cm of the tail. and when i touch it or lightly press it, he doesn't scream or anything. i am just worried about that. i also noticed he always sits with his entire tail under him.

7- is it normal that the little one tends to be dirty down there. lots of poo traces on his bum's hair, legs and tail. is that just a training issue

8- any other advice for me. especially for the little one.

handsome kitty · Jul 6, 2015

anas9 said:
Hello,

we just brought 2 kittens from someone that i later realized is a breeder () and has no mercy nor knowledge about animals.

one of the kittens is 65 days old. however the second is only 35 . as far as i know that's too early to seperate a kitten from her mother. but it happened and no way around it now. i have no plants on returning him to that man. i would rather help him adjust and live a good life.

we are facing several issues in caring for the little one and i am trying to make up for any losses or mistreatment he may have gotten. by mistreatment i mean, the breeder not understanding the nutritions such a young kitten needs.

This is how we picked him up. he told us he is litter box trained, however he does have several accidents per day, both urine and number 2!

he told us she is used to Wiskas canned food. i read that this food is not good for a kitten his age and i am trying to remedy that. i just bought milk replacer (powder milk, pricey, but worth it if it will please the kitten and is good for him).

what should i do, i tried to move the kitten away from the canned in case he doesn't like it, and bought a wiskas Junior bag, sprayed a bit of water on the dry food. both kittens hated it, they ate a bit when i put it on the plate then stopped. and refused to eat it later, they preferred to stay hungry than eat it. so that bag is going down the chute. this is what i got them next. they seem to like it. http://www.dubaipetfood.com/shop/royal-canin-kitten-10031p.html

i also just switched them both to crystal type of litter sand. here is my observation so far

1- the big one sat on it twice but didn't go. i wil check in 1-2 hours to check if he used it.

2- the little one may have an issue with it. the crystals got stuck on his mouth. out on his lips and between his front teeth. note that this happened 5 minutes after i gave him a bath, i am not sure if that is related, but i am worried about him.

Also, note that i have yet to see the little one play. he got excited over a feather today. but he was not in a good mood to continue because he was hungry.

the above is just to put you in my shoes to understand how all my questions came up.....

Questions

1- how do we train the kittens on the new litter box and sand type (crystals)

2- should i use the formula milk and stop food on the little one, or is it too later now since he already started eating wet food?

3- i read about mixing the milk with his food. is this good advice? the milk comes with a kit for feeding him.

4- do kittens like semi dark or bright area for the litter box? should i move it to the bathroom. right now it's in a semi dark spot of the house that the little one likes to sleep in.

5- is it normal for a 35 days old kitten not to play at all. the older one plays a lot.

6- the little one's tail is almost 90 degrees with a twist at the end. it's the last 1 cm of the tail. and when i touch it or lightly press it, he doesn't scream or anything. i am just worried about that. i also noticed he always sits with his entire tail under him.

7- is it normal that the little one tends to be dirty down there. lots of poo traces on his bum's hair, legs and tail. is that just a training issue

8- any other advice for me. especially for the little one.

1 I am not familiar w/ crystals I will say the litter should be non-clumping. Kittens will try to eat it and it will clump in their stomachs - very bad. They may not like the crystals you need to try different kinds. Is the litter box too tall for the kittens?

Some tricks: Take their accidents and put them in the litter box so that their scent is now in the box. You can try cat attract or a litter w/cat attract in it. Put the kittens in the litter box after each meal.

2 keep up with the formula, You can try pouring it over the dry food they don't like it may make the diff. You can also serve it in a dish like a shallow bowl or small plate. You can also mix it with the wet food, especially for the younger kitten - make like a kitten mush. Kittens eat a lot and more as they grow. If they seem hungry (crying) feed them more. They also need a dish of water.

3 You can try feeding the younger one with a kitten bottle if he doesn't drink from the bowl.

4 I don't know about the light, dim is probably better. Location is more important. Small kittens have small bladders and can not go too far, which may explain the accidents. Depending on how big an area the kittens have to roam you may want to set up multiple boxes around the house. You can use the disposable aluminum pans. With 2 cats you will eventually need 3 boxes.

5 the younger kitten should be playing. Try crumpled up paper balls. Or play with the older one in front of him. Kittens learn from watching each other.

6 If the tail isn't bothering him, leave it be. It could be genetics, or broken in utero.

7 His mother should still be looking after him. So you will have to be mom. Use a warm damp towel or cloth and wipe him down. Hopefully he will start cleaning that area on his own. About 5 weeks is when they start grooming themselves, so you may want to give him a good grooming once a day like mom would.

I don't think it's a good idea to give the kitten a bath. Just use a cloth and try to teach him how to groom. He will also see the other kitten grooming. Kittens like to hide in caves, so any little spaces you can create or 3 sided boxes for them to play in or around would be fun for them.

i am glad you are not returning him to the breeder.

catpack · Jul 6, 2015

1- how do we train the kittens on the new litter box and sand type (crystals) If you are not already doing so, the kittens need to be confined to a small room or bathroom. You can even use a large dog crate, though make sure the little ones cannot get their heads wedged between the bars. The best type of litter to use for such young kittens is a non-clumping clay litter or a natural pellet litter (paper is a good option) because kittens are notorious for tasting things and trying to eat things they shouldn't. If you want them on the crystal-type litter, best to wait until the youngest is 12-16 weeks old and then make the switch.
As for training, they need access to several litter boxes that should have low sides and be easy for them to get in and out of. Place kittens in box after meals, you can even move their paws gently to scratch at the litter. You can also place their accidents into the litter box to help them get the idea. They need to be using the boxes in the small space before giving them access to a larger area.
The baby is just now reaching the age to start litter training as around 4 weeks is when they start to begin to gain control of their bowels. PATIENCE is key!

2- should i use the formula milk and stop food on the little one, or is it too later now since he already started eating wet food? Continuing formula is ideal. Get a bottle and see if he will drink from it as kittens typically will nurse until they are 10-12 weeks old. Canned food only should be used for the youngest as his teeth are not strong enough to handle the dry food. In fact, canned food only would not be bad for either to eat right now. The addition of dry can be done when the youngest is around 6-8 weeks old; but, canned food should still be apart of their diet.

3- i read about mixing the milk with his food. is this good advice? the milk comes with a kit for feeding him.
Yes, you can mix the formula with the canned food to make it really soupy and easier for him to eat. You can also use the formula to soften the dry food into a mush; but, do not feed the dry food dry.

4- do kittens like semi dark or bright area for the litter box? should i move it to the bathroom. right now it's in a semi dark spot of the house that the little one likes to sleep in.
Again, kittens should not have fully reign of the house, especially the smallest. He still needs help keeping his body temp regulate. I would keep both kittens confined unless you are directly supervising them. As for light...typically indoor light is ok. You do not want bright light, though.

5- is it normal for a 35 days old kitten not to play at all. the older one plays a lot.
Yes, the youngest is just now at the age where he is getting his feet under him. He may even still be a bit wobbly and coordination is not great. He is just now entering the phase of learning to play. They start acting more like "typical" funny kittens around 6 weeks of age.

6- the little one's tail is almost 90 degrees with a twist at the end. it's the last 1 cm of the tail. and when i touch it or lightly press it, he doesn't scream or anything. i am just worried about that. i also noticed he always sits with his entire tail under him.
this can either be some thing he was born with or his tail may have been broken. It this point, just monitor. You can have your vet examine him when you take him in to be dewormed.

7- is it normal that the little one tends to be dirty down there. lots of poo traces on his bum's hair, legs and tail. is that just a training issue
Yes, completely normal. Momma would still be doing the grooming and even still stimulating him to go potty at times. You're likely doing to deal with this issue for at least a few more weeks. Fragrance-free baby wet wipes work well for potty clean up.

8- any other advice for me. especially for the little one.
He is a baby and need to be treated as such. Keep him warm and well fed. He still needs to eat about very 4 hrs, even at night. Going too long without food can cause the baby's blood sugar to drop quickly. By 6 weeks, you can go about 6 hrs at night.
It is good that you have the slightly older kitten to as he will teach the baby to play and both will continue to learn their cat social skills. The older one can also help keep baby warm when they sleep cuddled together.

anas9 · Jul 6, 2015

thanks all for the reply.

it was very helpful.

well. here is a few updates

i tried the milk with the little one. he didn't like it out of the bottle. tried it on a plate. didn't go for it. a few sips and he stopped. there is a chance i got the mixture wrong. i asked my wife to try again tomorrow. i hope she can get it better.

they hate the Wiskas Junior even in mushy form. i mixed a bag of soft food (the one they like) with the dry food and milk, (lol, i know an odd mix). they didn't go for it. but they went for another pack of soft food i opened. looks like that formula was a waste of money. but worth the try. because if u are going to raise a cat, u gotta invest money and time on them.

as for litter training. i will try the confined space idea. i did however observe the following today.

i put the old one on the crystals, he used it flawlessly. later i put the little one, he did go, but didn't bother smell nor cover it. the old one was watching him and went in right away and covered it. kudos for team work. the little one was watching. so i hope he learned. the disaster was seconds later. as soon as the old one covered the little one's poo, he did his own, but in the corner of the box. he tried so hard to cover it, but only made a pile of crystals right next to it. he tried a different angle to cover it, and failed, on his turning around for another attempt. he dipped his paw into his poo

. i had to water wash the paws. i think the box isn't full enough. going to buy another bag tomorrow and raise the level a bit.

i would say litter training progressed. i don't expect a 2 month old to perfect it. but i am glad the little one understand it's where he is supposed to do it. i just hope he learns to cover it.

looks like i am stuck on the softfood bags, but that's a heavy investment for me. i calculated needing to spend 150$ on soft food per month. i was hoping to spend less. LOL

i bought them a bunch of toys and one of the scratching poles with 2 platforms and a tiny little enclosure. i sprayed it with what is supposed to be a simulator similar to catnip. they were interested. but didn't see them go nuts over the spray. i have had kittens and cats 14 years ago that went nuts over catnip trapped in a little pouch.

catpack · Jul 6, 2015

They're still a bit too young to enjoy catnip. You can save that for a few more months yet.

Glad they are eating. This is the most important thing. The younger will likely learn from the older to cover his business in time.

These 2 kittens are very lucky to have ended up in your home!

Do they have names yet? We love to see pics here. =)

anas9 · Jul 6, 2015

CatPack said:
They're still a bit too young to enjoy catnip. You can save that for a few more months yet.

Glad they are eating. This is the most important thing. The younger will likely learn from the older to cover his business in time.

These 2 kittens are very lucky to have ended up in your home!

Do they have names yet? We love to see pics here. =)

We haven't voted on the names yet. i had to go on a business trip 12 hours after getting them and just got back

. i have 4 kids. it won't be an easy task naming them.

i'll post photos tomorrow

anas9 · Jul 9, 2015

Hello Everyone,

here is an update:

1- i tried several food types and had to go to the one i heard from several sources that it's not good for kittens. unfortunately, it's the only thing they eat in large quantity, the rest including special meats in gravy for kittens recommended online and by pet stores. they are eating wiskas canned food.

2- i have a new concern, the breeder who like i said early knows nothing about cats in my opinion said was normal, but i have been reading online and don't think it is. both kittens have thick secretions out of their eyes. they are almost the same color as blood. i do plan on taking them to a vet for a complete check up ASAP. but what do you think for now? (see photos)

3- i still have issues with the little one cleaning up after himself. he doesn't know how to clean himself. and he doesn't know how to cover his business, the older one ends up covering it for him

. several times i found the little one's legs and tail full of poo. i did throw away all the crystals i have and went for clumping litter sand. better results on hygiene of the older one. no improvement on the little one

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handsome kitty · Jul 9, 2015

The younger kitten is still to young to clean up himself. His mom would normally still be doing this for him at this age. Unfortunately for you since he is eating solid food already his body is producing more poop than he would if still nursing. It is also a different Constancy. You will have to keep cleaning him for the time being.

The vet sounds like a good idea. It is not uncommon for kittens to develop eye infections. You may also want to ask him about worming the kittens i.e when, and get the prescription or the name of an OTC you can use.

NewYork1303 · Jul 9, 2015

Looks to me like an eye infection or an URI. My cat has chronic eye problems like that from a URI and herpes that he had as a kitten which led to him needing surgery to remove part of the eye (he was living under a bush with siblings, then mom vanished and the kittens were taken to a rescue). Definitely a good idea to take them to the vet.

catpack · Jul 9, 2015

You need a NON-Clumping litter for the kittens, especially the youngest. If the kittens ingest clumping litter it can cause an intestinal blockage that would need immediate surgery. The litter absorbs fluid from the GI system and expands.

anas9 · Jul 9, 2015

one more point i forgot to mention earlier.

the older one, plays aggressively with the little one. i am not sure if he is being playful or hates him.

he grabs him and bit him slightly, usually around the neck!!!. he also grabs him then start kick and scratch him with his legs. do i need to worry, or is he just playing with him?

handsome kitty · Jul 9, 2015

He may just be playing but with the size difference I would discourage it at this point. the little guy could get hurt. I actually give my cats a whole paper towel roll to bite and kick.

anas9 · Jul 10, 2015

by the way. from a breed point of view. is the big one realy a british short hair or a mix between british and persian? the person i got them from said the big one is british, and the little one is "Shirazi" which i believe a Dubai name for persian, but he sure doesn't look persian. he is much cuter

out of curiosity

handsome kitty · Jul 10, 2015

They're cute. You can post pics on the 'What does my cat look like' forum for an answer.

anas9 · Jul 13, 2015

Please don't judge after reading all the below. made a bad call and can't tell if it was the reason behind all my issues.

little one is not doing well at all. he is soooooo tiny i am starting to suspect he was born pre-mature. no Emergency vets around me.

issues started with not playing at all, but he did eat and poo well, no diarrhea.

i discussed the eye infection with the breeder i got him from and told him he needs to check his cats for it, he asked me to bring him to see him. i did,,,,,,,,,

as soon as i arrive, he put him on a table. he fell from the 1 meter high table and all hell broke lose

.

i first noticed he didn't want to move. the breeder started talking about high fever and gave him a Betamox injection

(a small dose), i should not have allowed him to do it, but i wasn't looking when it happened, my little daughter distracted me. he then gave him a thick brown liquid into his mouth and told me it was vitamines.

keep in mind, although the kitten is now 6-7 weeks old, he fits in my palm. the guy said he has high fever which is why he gave him the betamox injection.

now we have major issues that i don't know what to connect it to. is it the fall ot the injection. but all i can say, all hell broke lose and i can't sleep.

i notice he stopped moving at the breeder's house. he tried to move but used his front arms, his rear legs were just slipping on the tiles, i tried to feed him from my finger, licked it a bit, but had no energy to eat.

later he started slipping on all 4 legs. in other words he can't walk. and now he tends to shake his head in a manner very similar to wobble head toy, but slowly.

no emergency vets around. i am going to take him tomorrow, if he survives the night :'( ,

i know i shouldn't have taken him to the guys, but i was more concerned about the cats he has and their infection when he volunteered to help with my kittens fever. don't know how i am going to forgive myself if he doesn't survive the night

. going to try milk for the night. since he is not eating.

how can i post a video of his current behavior for advice

catpack · Jul 13, 2015

At this point, try to simply keep him hydrated.

This does sound as there could be a neurologic issue going on, but certainly cannot give that diagnosis. But, I'm more suspicious of the fall since you noticed issues immediately after this.

I am so sorry to hear you and this baby are going through this.

Do you have any idea how much Betamox was given?

My guess is that the brown oral medication given was likely Petinic or something similar. This helps with anemia and does have other vitamins in it.

anas9 · Jul 13, 2015

do you mean neurologic at birth or malnourishment caused.

he gave him an extremely small dose,, that's what he said, we are talking on a syringe that is very thin and graduals are 10-20....up to 90. he gave him 10-20 only.

he gave me a pill told me this is quarter of a pill that you should divide in half and give it to him tomorrow, . the pill is dox4pvet tablets. not going to do any of that. when a person gets sick, he goes to a doctor, doesn't just ask the town's elder, especially that he insists all that yellow plasma and secretions out of all my cat and his cats are normal tears

i just managed to force him to drink up 7CC milk. i also tried the soft food, i had to dump it forcefully in his mouth to get him to chew it. sticking to milk, i still have 13 CC to feed him.

i am starting to think it's not damaged legs, but general dizziness, please tell me that injection may cause dizziness for a few hours.

and yes. all issues started after the fall. but he gave him the injection less than 1 minute later.

i am going to invest high on the top clinic Dubai has to offer with x-ray and everything. not giving up. i was so excited i got them a persian companion to play with, but let's just say anything bad happens to him will devastate us. we love him so much

handsome kitty · Jul 13, 2015

I think @CatPack meant from the fall. What kind of a surface did the kitten land on? Did you notice if the kitten landed on his head?

I don't know anything about the medication but CatPack should be back. or @sarthur2

catpack · Jul 13, 2015

I do not mean neurologic from birth, I mean a neurologic injury due to the fall. This can either be due to head or spinal trauma.

This would explain why the kitten lost function of his limbs, appeared wobbly and is also lethargic.

Antibiotics can cause nausea, vomiting and diarrhea. Rarely do antibiotics cause neurologic issues, but they can. This is most often when there is an overdose.

I looked up Betamox and the dosing says 7 mg/kg. This is with the 150 mg/mL solution.

anas9 · Jul 13, 2015

thanks for the help.

so, if there was neurological trauma from the fall. is that something that normally would be permanent. unfortunately i didn't see the fall. the guy was standing between me and him when he turned towards me and the fall happened.

my kitten is usually careful. he meows a lot if stuck on a high surface he can't jump down from. i don't understand what he was thinking

he has just pooed all over his body in my car, no litter box to do the business. i wonder if the annoying smell disoriented him.

well. i'll find out in a few hours. not going to sleep. i'll be at the vet in a few hours when they open for business.

i'll find out tomorrow how much exactly he gave him. this guy doesn't use science at all. and doesn't read/speak english, so he definitely didn't read the med's instructions, he replies on his 17 years experience dealing/breeding and raising cats (that he keeps mentioning). but i guess it may not be the issue. neurological trauma seems to be the prime suspect

i don't know if this is worth mentioning. he had 2 major issues at his house 2 weeks ago, after i picked up my lovely kittens.

one of his pregnant female, aborted 1 baby, that was a still birth and very dark in color. he went to the vet who injected her with something to force labour. she later dropped 3 more kittens, and stinky blood kept oozing out. the his vet injected her again with the same stuff. she later died from poisoning, it seems her babies died in her womb and caused a severe infection. another female cat he had that was also pregnant lost all her babies, but she is healthy now.

2 pregnant cats losing babies, is there some bad contagious disease in his house!!!!!!

anyways, just wanted to share, i will be taking all my lovely babies for a full blown out checks ups today.

35 days old already separated from her mother issues

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