I need help with Akodo - he's an aggressive player

xisare

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Hullo!

I really need help with Akodo, our two year old ginger male. He loves to play... with out feet and hands. He will stalk us around the house, and pounce on us at random times. At the beginning it did not hur much, but recently he has become more persistent and strong in his biting, to the point that he would pounce on my feet four or five consecutive tmes before I manage to take him off. And it hurts too. He has drawn blood a couple of times but what really worries me is that a couple of times he has tried to do it while I have a hot mug on hand or while I've been cooking, and I don't to spill hot water or oil on him!!

We've tried ignoring him, distracting him with noises or toys, before he actually pounces but nothing works. He would look at us and then keep stalking. We can't move out of room becasue we live in a studio so we have open floor and both my husband and I work from home.  And for now we're alone, but what will happen when we have children?

We're both commited to keep him with us but we don't know what to do. On October we will move  to a bigger apartment, and in many places I've read that a good idea is to bring a younger kitten that teaches him and keeps him occupied. Does this work? what can we do in the mean time?

Thanks!!
 

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Is he neutered? 

Anyway, does he HIDE and then pounce? It might be beneficial for you to fill in hiding places so you can see him getting ready to pounce and move out of the way. 

I would try to tire him out with different toys. What toys do you play with him currently? There are toys on rods so he won't be trying to pounce on you, but only if you move it in a way that is interesting enough for him so his focus is redirected. 

Getting a cat tree or cat shelves might help get him off the floor too and expand his territory vertically. 

To be honest, all of my suggestions come from watching cat videos, particularly from My Cat From Hell and Jackson Galaxy. I would suggest you watch some of those episodes and his videos and maybe something will pop up. 

And thank you so much for being adamant about keeping him, despite his attacks. It's such a relief to hear that :)
 

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Hullo!

I really need help with Akodo, our two year old ginger male. He loves to play... with out feet and hands. He will stalk us around the house, and pounce on us at random times. At the beginning it did not hur much, but recently he has become more persistent and strong in his biting, to the point that he would pounce on my feet four or five consecutive tmes before I manage to take him off. And it hurts too. He has drawn blood a couple of times but what really worries me is that a couple of times he has tried to do it while I have a hot mug on hand or while I've been cooking, and I don't to spill hot water or oil on him!!

We've tried ignoring him, distracting him with noises or toys, before he actually pounces but nothing works. He would look at us and then keep stalking. We can't move out of room becasue we live in a studio so we have open floor and both my husband and I work from home.  And for now we're alone, but what will happen when we have children?

We're both commited to keep him with us but we don't know what to do. On October we will move  to a bigger apartment, and in many places I've read that a good idea is to bring a younger kitten that teaches him and keeps him occupied. Does this work? what can we do in the mean time?

Thanks!!
ANother cat, perhaps not a kitten, but a very playful cat friendly cat could go a long way to helping.  Play for cats is mostly a predatory behavior (killing the mouse) and some cats have a bigger pray drive than others.   Naturally play aggressive cats should be given as much interaction with toys that separate you from the cat, but never pet your cat right after doing this, give them a chance to settle down.

Another cause of this is cat's who don't get enough attention, and then they turn to you, but it sounds like you are giving your cat plenty of attention.  If he bites and doesn't let go you can blow air on his face or push into his mouth instead of try and pull out which makes it worse, then ignore him for a few minutes so he learns that he loses your attention when he hurts you.

Carry small toys with you like mice in your pockets at all times and if you see him getting ready to pounce, immediately toss a mouse.  And consider another cat who is playful and confident and won't be cowed by him and that likes other cats.
 

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Are there certain times of day, or times when you are doing things that this happens?  It is worth identifying any regular point and to watch for the signals he is about to start hunting you, as StephenQ says, and try to get in before him with a different kind of hunting play.  Whether it is the toy mice suggested above that distract him or if he needs a more interactive, hands on kind of attention, the trick is to stop him before he gets to what you want to stop happening.  That way hopefully you can give the reward attention at a point that gets him to learn that it is something else he is doing which results in play, not the biting.  

If you can play until he is tired out, including through those long sitting watching and waiting phases of the games, and once done give him a little food to signal the end of the game, he will hopefully learn more what the boundaries of playing with his humans are.  Once you have got this communication sorted between you it is a bit easier to avoid the stuff you don't want, and also to get him to learn what times are OK with you too.

Good luck.  I do believe altering this behaviour is possible but it needs patience and very consistent responses from all the humans around your cat.
 
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xisare

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Thanks for all the responses.

Yes, he's neutered. All the cats from shelters here in Texas need to be sterilized before adoption.

Believe me , he does not hide at all, I can see him at least with 20 seconds of anticipation. He does have a lot of toys and we play with him a lot with one of those fishing poles with feathers. We thinkg that he was previously in a house because he's incredible at catching fliying targets.

The only pattern I've seen is that he attacks us when we're barefoot or with sandals, and at noon/afternoon. Basically exposed skin. The thing is that we really love being barefood on the house, more so with the heat. Maybe is something in my smell? I do take medication for renal stones and that afects my sweat pH.

We do give him as much attention as we can, maybe I a bit less because i need go to out more often. But most of the time he's accompanied in the apartment..

he has a cat table, with the surface that he can scratch and also two of the legs are covered in cord. He loves that spot to look outside and I'm trying to get him used that that is his grooming spot. We've left him panting and to the point he does not even try to look at the feather, but 2 minutes later he may be ready to pounce again. He's really tireless.

We've trying bloing on him wehn he bites, but not pushing our feet. Maybe we'll do.

Also he does not like to be pet, or more clearly, he thinks that any hand that pets him more than 3 times is prey :p . But we 're already working on that, avoiding the head helps a lot (he just had treatment for ear mites). The funny thing is that at night he cuddles very close to me or sleeps in my side table, but not my husband's.
 

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Thanks for all the responses.
It's not your smell.  It's behavioral.  He is an extreme example of the rough player, and given all that you are doing with him, and i commend you for it, i suspect his best long term help will be with another carefully chosen cat.  Not just any cat.  A cat who can handle the attention, a confident cat who enjoys playing.  A kitten is not a great choice because they can grow out of the playing phase  and then you have a new problem, a cat who is picked on and unhappy, and a kitten could also get beaten up.  Think young adult.

Besides all the play you are doing, you could also for a couple of weeks during a retraining phase avoid bare feet.  And during this time match the play yo do with the withholding of affection and attention when he pounces.  He needs the carrot and the stick, in this case the stick is the lesson that he looses you for a little while every time he pounces.  ANd try carrying fake mice and tossing them. You could also try re-directing him by tossing treats.
 

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He does sound like he has a high play / hunt drive and is easiy excited.   Mouse's hunting times are morning and evening so I know he has to be kept out of mischief then, always good to know your cat's daily pattern.  

I agree with StephenQ's suggestion of a couple of weeks training period where you try covering up the seemingly most attractive prey (your feet) and try to redirect his attention during that time.  If the small toys being thrown doesn't do the trick then walking about with fishing rod toys / danglers and perhaps large grabbable toys like Kongs or larger stuffed toys which he could grab from you and wrestle with - the aim being to catch his attention with the toy rather than his seeing your body first.   I spent many months walking about with DaBird trailing after me, or waggling feather wands behind me as I walked to redirect Mouse from pouncing - except he pounced at my head not my feet.  I still do it but it is now the chosen game rather than it being to stop him doing other hunting tricks.

If Akado does still launch at your feet / legs then stop still and do that gently pushing in towards him trick Stephen has told you about, then remain still until he gives in - bored.  Give him time to settle (unless he is preparing to pounce again in which case put a large toy between you) and then introduce the chosen diversion toy and try to walk on.  It can be slow progress but hopefully it will work.
 
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xisare

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We've though about getting him a large toy, but we're unsure how successful would be given that he loves to throw his toys arouns the house and catch them mid air or race behind them.

Actually I think we've made a tiny bit of progress because we've had a day without pouncing, but he just did it.... his schedule seems to be all over the place, though it is more frequent after lunch. I'll try walking with the fishing rod, see if that can get the atention out of my feet and hands. Today he started pouncing at out arms and hand while we were in the sofa.

I'd like to feel we're making progress... let's see if that is really the case.
 

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We've though about getting him a large toy, but we're unsure how successful would be given that he loves to throw his toys arouns the house and catch them mid air or race behind them.

Actually I think we've made a tiny bit of progress because we've had a day without pouncing, but he just did it.... his schedule seems to be all over the place, though it is more frequent after lunch. I'll try walking with the fishing rod, see if that can get the atention out of my feet and hands. Today he started pouncing at out arms and hand while we were in the sofa.

I'd like to feel we're making progress... let's see if that is really the case.
Good news, keep us updated.
 
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xisare

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I don't know what to think .... yesterday we almost had a couple of episodes that we managed to divert on time (and one we couldn't), but today we had two episodes. We had to be out of the home and when we were back he waited a couple of hours and pounced from behind, so I could not divert it.

I almost think that it was because he missed me, which would be very cute if not for my new two scratches. And I really don't want him to depend on either of us being all day in the house because soon it will not be that way (I'll be working out of home, my husband is going back to college). And we're still 5 months away of being able to adopt another cat.

About that: How do you select a cat for a situation like this? Would you bring Akodo to the shelter and look which cats does he play more? How can we do it?
 

stephenq

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We've though about getting him a large toy, but we're unsure how successful would be given that he loves to throw his toys arouns the house and catch them mid air or race behind them.

Actually I think we've made a tiny bit of progress because we've had a day without pouncing, but he just did it.... his schedule seems to be all over the place, though it is more frequent after lunch. I'll try walking with the fishing rod, see if that can get the atention out of my feet and hands. Today he started pouncing at out arms and hand while we were in the sofa.

I'd like to feel we're making progress... let's see if that is really the case.
Good news, keep us updated.
 
I don't know what to think .... yesterday we almost had a couple of episodes that we managed to divert on time (and one we couldn't), but today we had two episodes. We had to be out of the home and when we were back he waited a couple of hours and pounced from behind, so I could not divert it.

I almost think that it was because he missed me, which would be very cute if not for my new two scratches. And I really don't want him to depend on either of us being all day in the house because soon it will not be that way (I'll be working out of home, my husband is going back to college). And we're still 5 months away of being able to adopt another cat.

About that: How do you select a cat for a situation like this? Would you bring Akodo to the shelter and look which cats does he play more? How can we do it?
My adoption org wouldn't want you bringing your cat in to test with other cats and i don't know any group that would allow this. It's not a good test and unfair to your cat.  However you are in a fairly unusual situation so i would suggest that you work very closely  with an adoption group that you trust to create as specifically and detailed a match as possible.  I would look into "foster to adopt" as well. And you need a group or org who knows their cats really well.

 Generally you need most  if not all of the following:

- A young adult cat.

- A very  confident cat

- Highly social with other cats.

- Highly playful, but not an aggressive or rough player, but a cat who can accept  some rough play.

You can't guess at this, nor can your adoption group.  They need to know a cat with these qualities and it may take a while for them to even find a cat like this.  If you don't get the right cat, you could end up with a cat who is terrorized by your cat, but if you get the right cat, and with a proper introduction, you could go a long way to solving this issue.  Your cat has a very  high pray drive and frankly at some shelters would be a euthanasia risk.  The work you do on behalf of your cat is an investment not only in your happiness, but in his life.
 
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xisare

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I know, and that is why I'm so worried about this, we only have one shot.

Sadly, I'm new to the city and I don't know the shelters/ adoption groups very well.

Is anyone here from the North Dallas Area? that could recommend a shelter/adoption group to work with for this case? Akodo came from the Dallas Humane Society, that shares infrastructure with the Irving adoption center. They warned us that he was hyperactive, and that he was returned to the shelter after 3 months adopted for that same reason.
 
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stephenq

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I know, and that is why I'm so worried about this, we only have one shot.

Sadly, I'm new to the city and I don't know the shelters/ adoption groups very well.

Is anyone here from the North Dallas Area? that could recommend a shelter/adoption group to work with for this case? Akodo came from the Dallas Humane Society, that shares infrastructure with the Irving adoption center. They warned us that he was hyperactive, and that he was returned to the shelter after 3 months adopted for that same reason.
Well going back to the place you got your cat from is often a good idea.  And clearly he has a history :(  you can also go to www.petfinder.org and plug in your zip code for rescue groups of just google cat adoiption or cat rescue etc.
 
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xisare

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I could do that, I just waslooking for personal references, or groups anyone could vouch for. There's just so much info you can get from the internet and here I'd rather have a personal touch
 

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I could do that, I just waslooking for personal references, or groups anyone could vouch for. There's just so much info you can get from the internet and here I'd rather have a personal touch
Understood.  One of the areas i work in is Adoptions and probably the top reason why people will select the "wrong" cat for them is they don't make a behavior motivated choice instead selecting due to coloration, gender, etc, sometimes even ignoring staff's recommendations, and then the next reason is that the staff either doesn't know their cats well enough or want to push a certain type of cat on the adopter.  but in my experience, mostly the former and not the latter.

Whatever your personal motivation in selecting your cat, it was an altruistic thing to do in that he is both an at-risk cat and obviously harder to adopt, and while one could argue you weren't the best home for him (he'd probably do great in a multi cat home as an example) the fact remains you opened your heart to him and he is with you now.  But this is not an easy fix and you basically have 3 choices, 1) fix it, 2) live with it or 3) return him.  If you want to do #1, i will suggest that this is going to be difficult, but to the extent that you can get him and yourselves through this, you are going to have to continue to work hard at it.  A professional behaviorist would be a good start, but as we have both been discussing, another cat (or 2) could be a great way to go.

So where ever you go, and yes a personal recommendation would be good, failing that i would suggest you get the highest ranking staff possible at the shelter where you got him to assist you, as they and that group will be motivated to help as they will know that if it doesn't work out that the cat may be coming back to them, which they do NOT want for multiple reasons.

As i said before, the selection process has to be very carefully considered and if you don't find the right cat when you go in, and by "right" I mean in your gut and with staff nodding up and down "this is the cat you need" type of "right", under no circumstances just pick a cat who is somewhat right. You need to be patient.  If you get the wrong cat you will have a world of unhappiness on your hands.  Even the "right" cat may not be right enough, there is no guarantee of a solution.

In many situations like this, people who's second cat is the wrong choice usually/often end up keeping the second cat (he was so picked upon i felt so bad!!) and end up returning the cat they were trying to help in the first place.

Last thought, assuming you try for a second cat, this choice is ALL about your cat, and not about your needs at all.  At least, your needs are entirely secondary to the health and happiness of the current cat.
 
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xisare

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Actually it went a bit that way with Akodo.

When we went to the shelter we also went with my sister and her boyfriend who were visiting from Chile. They fell in love with Akodo, while I was not so sure, because he was by himself over the cages our of reach of all the other cats, and did not seem very curious about us. All in all, when we learnt he was returned to the shelter I caved in.

I have never regretted it, don't get me wrong. But now I need truthful advice from someone who really knows their cats. I'm not sure about going to the same shelter, because Akodo did not seem to interact much with the ones that were there, though of course, I hope the current resident will have changed by when we visit. :D:D

We're determined to fix it, in the short run and in the long run, because we can't live with it, he could scrtach someone that is not that friendly, or that has health issues, or our (future) children. And we're not even thiking in returning him again.

That's why I'm asking for references in shelters/adoption centers.

Btw, what your opinions on Feliway? I just learnt of it from another thread here and looks like it could be a solution, even if it is until we can get our new furry friend (and dureing the introduction process)
 

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Actually it went a bit that way with Akodo.

When we went to the shelter we also went with my sister and her boyfriend who were visiting from Chile. They fell in love with Akodo, while I was not so sure, because he was by himself over the cages our of reach of all the other cats, and did not seem very curious about us. All in all, when we learnt he was returned to the shelter I caved in.

I have never regretted it, don't get me wrong. But now I need truthful advice from someone who really knows their cats. I'm not sure about going to the same shelter, because Akodo did not seem to interact much with the ones that were there, though of course, I hope the current resident will have changed by when we visit. :D:D

We're determined to fix it, in the short run and in the long run, because we can't live with it, he could scrtach someone that is not that friendly, or that has health issues, or our (future) children. And we're not even thiking in returning him again.

That's why I'm asking for references in shelters/adoption centers.

Btw, what your opinions on Feliway? I just learnt of it from another thread here and looks like it could be a solution, even if it is until we can get our new furry friend (and dureing the introduction process)
I hear you.  Re; Feliway, we all use it in shelters, and it can help, in my experiences when it works, it works, and when it doesn't, it doesn't.  I would try it but you can save some $$ and not start with the plug in defuses but instead just buy a single squirt bottle and squirt it everywhere he hangs out or sleeps, spray your hands and once dry pet him with it, just don't spray the scratching post or need the litter box.  If it works it will work quickly, like in a few days.

here are some groups I googled, but i can't comment on them as i don't know them.

http://www.operationkindness.org/opk/

http://www.dognkittycity.org/

http://dallascatlady.org/
 

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I like StephenQs suggestion of trying the spray Feliway - I have used both plug in and the spray and the spray has the added advantage of working more quickly so if your cat is hyper and or stressed, like if you have been out for a long time or are about to go out, you can use it and the effects should be aparent within about 30 minutes, where the plug in is a prolonged effect that takes time to build up. I use the spray in the car for transporting - as it is much cheeper it is a great way to see if your cat reacts to it or not.   I have used ther plug in when I was moving house twice in quick succession, then when I adopted Mouse and then when returning to work so he would be alone for long periods - it is a much more subtle influence.

Have you asked the shelter why Akado was on his own at the shelter rather than with other cats?   I am wondering if he was known to present different behaviours with other cats and maybe not such a good idea for him?   Worth checking out.  It can be for different reasons, such as he may not have been socialised with other cats, or he could have been and shown aggression or withdrawl.

On the day when Akado scratched you again after you had been out, had you played with him and tired him out after you came back in or had he had a quiet time and then appeared and the situation happened?  I know I have a routine with Mouse when I come back in to the appartment:   he has snuggles and kisses when I come in and then it is wild play time to tire him out.  He likes to have a snack, and after that he relaxes. 
 

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As per @MServant's comment, it would be useful to know if the shelter has any knowledge of Akodo's reaction to other cats.  If they keep written behavioral records or if there is someone there with instutitional memory, i would at least pursue that before attempting to get a second cat.
 
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xisare

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Thruthfully I had not even thought about it, it will be the first thing to check once we're ready for another cat.

On that day, no. he was not tired because I had came from work and I needed to finish something urgently so I just went direcly to work. I did stop to say him hi and try to scratch his head, but he was having none of it and tried to playfully bite me.

Today he behaved very very nicely.  I think he's learning that if he just stalk us and pounces but does not actually hit (he was very good at feinting today) he gets our attention without all the noise.

I've just played with him, enough to leave him panting (he looks so cute with his tounge out). I just did not do it in the moment he pounced because I don't want him to learn the he can dictate when we play.

With all the advice, i think that finally I'm starting to understand him.

One question though... when your cats play alone, do they meow loudly? like a sound between a growl and a meow, pretty loud but not angry... more like calling? he does that when he trhows his toys out of reach so we can get them to him, but he also does is while playing, seeming for no reason because if we try to play with him then he just stares at us and loses interest in the play.
 
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