KC the Pregnant Stray

If the baby had blood from nose or mouth then it was squashed to death.

Whether or not it's head was through a hole or not, at this point is irrelevant now, if you are already aware that the holes are a danger.

But getting squashed means the basket is not large enough or baby would have scooted itself away from under mom eventually.

It's still a matter of not enough space, I would get a larger container so this doesn't happen again, as it very well may.

A baby can get layed on by mom, and will squirm and cry but work it's way out. If baby squirms it's way out but hits a dead end wall, then it suffocates.

catwoman707 said:

 
If the baby had blood from nose or mouth then it was squashed to death.

Whether or not it's head was through a hole or not, at this point is irrelevant now, if you are already aware that the holes are a danger.

But getting squashed means the basket is not large enough or baby would have scooted itself away from under mom eventually.

It's still a matter of not enough space, I would get a larger container so this doesn't happen again, as it very well may.

A baby can get layed on by mom, and will squirm and cry but work it's way out. If baby squirms it's way out but hits a dead end wall, then it suffocates.

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She used to sit on them and I had to move them because she was to heavy and they couldn't get out. And she was on my bed so they weren't backed up against anything. Regardless, I planed on moving them anyways because they are moving around more. I have a new question. One of the babies is a lot smaller so I got a bottle and KMR to feed her, but she will not eat from the bottle. Do you have any tips to help? 

Ryan Glenn said:

 
She used to sit on them and I had to move them because she was to heavy and they couldn't get out. And she was on my bed so they weren't backed up against anything. Regardless, I planed on moving them anyways because they are moving around more. I have a new question. One of the babies is a lot smaller so I got a bottle and KMR to feed her, but she will not eat from the bottle. Do you have any tips to help? 

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Someone else will give more precise details but a needless syringe sounds like your best best. I wish I could give better details but I don't want to risk giving bad advice since I've only done it with an older kitten (force feeding a 7 1/2 month old).

Are you weighing the kittens? That is especially important with the smallest one so you are alerted at once if it is not gaining. Get a kitchen scale that measures in grams and weigh daily at the same time. And yes, often a needleless syringe works better than a bottle. Get the kitten on its tummy and introduce the syringe to t he side of the mouth and squeeze a little at a time to give a chance to swallow. Get her to feed from mom too if possible.

Babies will NOT take a bottle as long as they are nursing too. Won't happen.

This means syringing to supplement. 

The reason the smallest ones often don't survive is not due to weak health but because they get bumped off of the good nipples, meaning they will get the top nipples to nurse from, and these just don't cut it as the lower filled ones do.

The baby will try to go to the lowers, and the bigger ones make sure this won't happen and push and push until the baby goes elsewhere.

So supplementing means they will get plenty to grow and thrive. If you watch before supplementing started, you would see a small gain daily, if any, so in days and weeks to come, it catches up to them, creating weakness and a downhill slide.

So now is the best time to start. 

You will need preferably a 1.0 ml syringe. (needle-less of course) This will give you the very best control over the amt that goes in, as small babies can only be given a couple drops at a time, in to their cheek area, wait to swallow and breath and repeat. Give 3 mls each time to start, 5 times a day minimum.

You will start with this but with taking the weight daily, can adjust it until the baby is gaining about 10 grams per day or more, you want a bare minimum of 6 grams a day gain, but it's important to get a good 8-10.

On tummy as the usual nursing position, head tilted slightly up, and relax! Slowly, patience, is critical and life depends on this. One drop inhaled when the baby wasn't ready or takes a breath after the drops are in, one drop inhaled causes pneumonia and baby dies in a day or so, so just an fyi-you don't want to lose this baby needlessly.

I like to keep a mug of very hot water with me with a very small cup floating on it with the milk in it so it stays good and warmed.

catwoman707 said:

 
Babies will NOT take a bottle as long as they are nursing too. Won't happen.

This means syringing to supplement. 

The reason the smallest ones often don't survive is not due to weak health but because they get bumped off of the good nipples, meaning they will get the top nipples to nurse from, and these just don't cut it as the lower filled ones do.

The baby will try to go to the lowers, and the bigger ones make sure this won't happen and push and push until the baby goes elsewhere.

So supplementing means they will get plenty to grow and thrive. If you watch before supplementing started, you would see a small gain daily, if any, so in days and weeks to come, it catches up to them, creating weakness and a downhill slide.

So now is the best time to start. 

You will need preferably a 1.0 ml syringe. (needle-less of course) This will give you the very best control over the amt that goes in, as small babies can only be given a couple drops at a time, in to their cheek area, wait to swallow and breath and repeat. Give 3 mls each time to start, 5 times a day minimum.

You will start with this but with taking the weight daily, can adjust it until the baby is gaining about 10 grams per day or more, you want a bare minimum of 6 grams a day gain, but it's important to get a good 8-10.

On tummy as the usual nursing position, head tilted slightly up, and relax! Slowly, patience, is critical and life depends on this. One drop inhaled when the baby wasn't ready or takes a breath after the drops are in, one drop inhaled causes pneumonia and baby dies in a day or so, so just an fyi-you don't want to lose this baby needlessly.

I like to keep a mug of very hot water with me with a very small cup floating on it with the milk in it so it stays good and warmed.

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Thank for all of the information. I have been weighing them and I noticed that the runt was getting pushed off of the nipples. So I just put the KMR in a smaller container and then put it in a cup of very hot water to heat it up? No microwave? I want to make sure that I do not spoil the KMR. 

Okay after reading everything from the message I received (thanks @Reba) and reading everything that @catwoman707  said, I am still finding it hard to do this. I cannot get her to sit still and she keeps spitting out everything I put in her mouth. I put in a drop and the next second it is on her fur. And she cries so momma winds around my legs trying get me to put her down. Also I cannot seem to keep the milk warm. I lost the records that I had of their weight. I have the records from when I weighed them at about three days old and then I weighed her tonight and she has only gained 1.1 ounce since then. I do not want her to die from malnutrition, but I also do not want her to aspirate this stuff. 

Ryan Glenn said:

 
Okay after reading everything from the message I received (thanks @Reba) and reading everything that @catwoman707  said, I am still finding it hard to do this. I cannot get her to sit still and she keeps spitting out everything I put in her mouth. I put in a drop and the next second it is on her fur. And she cries so momma winds around my legs trying get me to put her down. Also I cannot seem to keep the milk warm. I lost the records that I had of their weight. I have the records from when I weighed them at about three days old and then I weighed her tonight and she has only gained 1.1 ounce since then. I do not want her to die from malnutrition, but I also do not want her to aspirate this stuff. 

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It's okay Ryan, you just seem to need a bit of a pep talk and encouragement.

Everyone I can think of who has had to supplement for their first time goes through the very same as you. It is frustrating and feels hopeless.

Of course it's not.

Try wrapping her up snugly like a burrito in a hand towel. Only her head poking out. You won't hurt her, and she won't be able to squirm.

Get the formula and syringe, paper towel, etc ready and set up first. Take her in a room alone, without momma cat or any other distractions.

It's best for mom too, so she doesn't hear her baby cry and get all stressed out, which causes stress for you as well.

Sit someplace comfortable, I like my kitchen table so I have all my supplies right there in front of me, handy.

Create like I said, sort of a double boiler type thing, very hot water in a dish or cup, and a very small container with the milk floating on the hot water.

If you have to stop for a minute to reheat it up, it's fine. She is tiny and fragile, but don't be worried, except of course about the timing, as you really need to watch she doesn't inhale any.

Some are really squirmy and it def makes it more of a challenge, but you can do this.

If you tilt her head up a bit more, better chance she will swallow it rather than it running out.

She will hate cool milk, so it is important to keep it good and warm, however you choose to make that happen.

Just relax, put her close to your face and watch her, watch how she breathes, just do it slowly, start with the first couple drops, wait to swallow and breath, get your timing down, do it again, try to avoid it coming out, as mls are very, very small amts, I always take a paper towel and put it under the neck to catch any that isn't swallowed, and can also tell how much went to the paper towel rather than in tummy. Fill the 1 ml syringe and squirt it on your palm. You will see what a very small amt that is, so if the paper towel gets alot on it, then give more syringes.

You will do just fine. We have all been right where you are now. We all have had our first, and know the anxiety it causes us!!

Slow and relaxed. The more often you do this, the better you are going to get at it.

Hi Ryan.  First of all it is challenging!  I had to go to a away and when my family came to bottle feed the kttens, they had a terrible time trying to do it. 

The way I kept the milk warm was:

1.  Put a cup of water in the microwave and heat it, oh gosh, trying to remember how much.  I think it was 2 minutes. (never ever EVER put the milk in the microwave)

2.  I had prepared the KMR and put it in a nursing bottle.

3.  Then I stuck the bottom half of the bottle in the water, not for very long, maybe 10-15  seconds - actually not sure about this at all, but I learned  it's better to do it in short bursts because if the milk gets too warm you have to sit and wait for it to cool.  You can experiment with some water in the bottle to see how long it takes.

4.  Shake the bottle - this is very important because the sides of the bottle get hot and it heats the milk unevenly

5.  Take a human digital thermometer (people will tell you to use your wrist to check the temperature, mine was never reliable) and stick it in the milk.   Make sure the tip is in the center of the bottle and check the temperature.  I used to have to do this three or four times until it hit 99 - 100 degrees.  101-103 you have to wait for it to cool down.  I was kind of nuts about this stuff, others may tell you you don't need to be so picky.  I figured every thing I bent over backwards to do right made a difference in them overcoming the things I got wrong.

6.  Try and feed kitten

7.  As you say the milk will cool off rather quickly.  So I would feed them a little and then put the bottle back in the water to heat it up again, then put the thermometer back in, etc.  After about 5 minutes I would also have to reheat the cup of water.

Hope that helps!  I have a video somewhere of it, if I can find it I'll send it to you.

Bottle feeding starts at 2:28


This woman uses a pipettte.  I don't know where you'd get one of those, asj CVS pharmacist maybe?  I would have had a hard time holding the kitten and pushing the plunger of the syringe, but this seems easier.

 

I could not get bottle feeding down, so I just started giving momma KMR and making sure that all of the babies are feeding properly. Now I have a new problem. I have seen that the roof of one of the kittens moth is grey. He is also breathing weird. I have no many to take him to the vet. I do not have a job and my mom just got a new car, so no money. I have no idea what to do. Do any of you know what this could be? The other two kittens have pink gums. Also thank you for all of the help with he bottle feeding. Even though I failed epically.

He just died. 

So sorry this kitten died. It is always sad and disappointing to lose a kitten. There would have been no solution at this late date. Hang in there!

I am so sorry you lost the kitten.  Really hard.  How are the others doing?  I hope all continue to look OK.

Ryan Glenn said:

 
I could not get bottle feeding down, so I just started giving momma KMR and making sure that all of the babies are feeding properly. Now I have a new problem. I have seen that the roof of one of the kittens moth is grey. He is also breathing weird. I have no many to take him to the vet. I do not have a job and my mom just got a new car, so no money. I have no idea what to do. Do any of you know what this could be? The other two kittens have pink gums. Also thank you for all of the help with he bottle feeding. Even though I failed epically.

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Ryan Glenn said:

 
He just died. 

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Im sorry for the loss.  I had just catched with the tread.   He was apparently dying when you noticed him, and his grey roof.  The whole must have gone pretty quick.  My guess it was pneumonia, the most common cause healthy born kittens die off...   In practice hopeless even if you got him to the vet.

Mourn the dead,  RIP little one 

but proceed with the living...  They still need your help.

Pneumonia? I didn't hear anything different in his breathing. I often put my ear up to their chest to make sure everything is going okay. I am sad I didn't catch it in time. I am now always looking at the other kittens gums to make sure it doesn't happen to them. They are so far doing well. I couldn't get a hang of the bottle feeding so instead I gave KMR to K.C. and made sure she was getting as much food as she wanted. K.C. has gained weight! She was VERY thin after having the kittens. The last two kittens look to be about the same weight now. I have not weighed them in a while.

So K.C. has not gained as much weight as I would have hoped. She put on a little bit but not that much. She eat all of the time. So since I have had K.C. all of my boys have hated her and the kittens. Of course just I was in the clear Doctor had to start trying to mate with her yesterday. I was gone and my sister called me saying that she walked outside just in time to see her try to attack him. We have been trying to keep them separated. It is very hard because we live in a small place. Thankfully Mouse and Astrid do not understand that she is trying to mate and they stay clear of her. Now we have to try and make sure that they do not mate. Oh joy! She cannot go outside but neither can doctor. Now what am I supposed to do? This is going to be very hard. Now I just hope that Mouse and Astrid do not learn that what mating is. 

The important thing is that she is gaining some weight - if she stops gaining, then you have a problem. Cats do not learn about mating from watching - it is pure instinct and will take place whether they have ever seen another cat do it or not! The only answer to that is sterilising them.

Ryan Glenn said:

 
So K.C. has not gained as much weight as I would have hoped. She put on a little bit but not that much. She eat all of the time. So since I have had K.C. all of my boys have hated her and the kittens. Of course just I was in the clear Doctor had to start trying to mate with her yesterday. I was gone and my sister called me saying that she walked outside just in time to see her try to attack him. We have been trying to keep them separated. It is very hard because we live in a small place. Thankfully Mouse and Astrid do not understand that she is trying to mate and they stay clear of her. Now we have to try and make sure that they do not mate. Oh joy! She cannot go outside but neither can doctor. Now what am I supposed to do? This is going to be very hard. Now I just hope that Mouse and Astrid do not learn that what mating is. 

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Mating done?  Sorry, Im not really hanging on with the turns, dont remember the whole tread either.  But if we do have an intact female who wants to mate, and a unspayed tom whom isnt totally uniterested, here are two possible variations:   This is part of the beleguering and courting dance.  As she IS willing, we know for sure its just a ritual, not really an "Away with you your diryt swine, Im not interested at all".

The other interpretation, is they had just mated, and as soon he is done, he rushes off for his life, and she hunts him for a while...   The mating is done succesfully.   With inside cats, they usually also become pals, the war ritual ended, and just friendship and love left...

Anyways, the rcommendation is you go on with the spaying as soon you can arrange it, even if the kittens are too small to be weaned.   Tell the vet about the situation, so he lays the incision so she can proceed to nurse in 12 hours...   But prepare with gears so you can give you some kmr or goat milk, if necessary...

@JennyR  She seems to be gaining weight, just not as fast as I though she would. She eats a lot. But Nursing takes a toll on queens, right? I know mating is instinctual it seems that Mouse and Astrid just do not yet understand. I mean K.C. was all but rubbing her butt in their face and they ran and hissed at her. Doctor on the other hand knows exactly what to do. 

@StefanZ  I know they were mating. I just really hope it didn't stick. The vets near me will not spa her until the babies are 8 weeks. I am really trying to make sure noting happens between the two. I do not want her to have more babies. Since today she tried to get someone to mate with her, does that mean the mating yesterday didn't take?