Litter Box Aversion help

I made a post last week about my two cats who can't look at each other without claws bared - there's Bit Bit who is the 20 lb bully and Leon who is much smaller and the victim in this case. Leon was doing really great about using the litter box but two nights ago he peed in my dirty clothes basket and pooped under the bed; tonight he pooped under the bed. Bit doesn't even sleep in the bedroom (I put a litter box in the bedroom about a week ago just for him) and I just don't know what to do with the two. Crawling under a bed at 5 AM is just not my ideal wake up call and while I can be pretty understanding of the situation my boyfriend is starting to get really really mad.....

Was hoping you guys may know some type of trick that I hadn't yet read on the subject! I know he's avoiding the box because of her - at least I think because just yesterday he walked right into the box in the living room and used it no problems! I don't under stand why it's sometimes box sometimes under the bed!

ciarabd said:

I made a post last week about my two cats who can't look at each other without claws bared - there's Bit Bit who is the 20 lb bully and Leon who is much smaller and the victim in this case. Leon was doing really great about using the litter box but two nights ago he peed in my dirty clothes basket and pooped under the bed; tonight he pooped under the bed. Bit doesn't even sleep in the bedroom (I put a litter box in the bedroom about a week ago just for him) and I just don't know what to do with the two. Crawling under a bed at 5 AM is just not my ideal wake up call and while I can be pretty understanding of the situation my boyfriend is starting to get really really mad.....

Was hoping you guys may know some type of trick that I hadn't yet read on the subject! I know he's avoiding the box because of her - at least I think because just yesterday he walked right into the box in the living room and used it no problems! I don't under stand why it's sometimes box sometimes under the bed!

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What are you using to clean the accidents?  If you don't use a good enzymatic cleaner, the cat will still be able to smell the urine and think it is his own personal litter box.  I would start by blocking under the bed.  He knows he is safe there, but it's not an ok place to poop.  You can try to block all ways under or just put your mattress and box springs directly on the floor for awhile.  I know this is a pain.

He needs to feel safe using the litter box.  The golden rule of litter boxes is one per cat and one extra.  You would need 3.  Also get some Dr. Elsey's Cat Attract litter.  It might help to attract him to the new box.

What type of litter trays are you using?  Cats usually prefer unhooded boxes and boxes that are a bit bigger.  I use the Sterlite under the bed storage containers. 

Do you clean the boxes each day so they are clean enough to be used?

If it's purely the one cat being a bully, you will need to keep a close eye. Here is a good article that addresses lots of litter box issues.

https://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/cat-behavior/litter-box-problems

I think you need to start by adding more litter boxes.  Also check the placement of the boxes.  Are they in a place where a cat would feel cornered and have no way to escape?  Rethink placement.

I don't think I'm using the proper cleaner, I haven't been able to find any "proper" enzymatic cleaners around but I'm using Resolve for pets which says it breaks down - not sure how accurate that is.

Unfortunately I can't put the mattresses directly on the floor but I will definitely be looking into finding a way to block him from going under it somehow..

For litter boxes I have four. None with hoods. Three are the large storage bins you can buy at Walmart with low sides, one has high sides that I cut an entryway into. I was thinking maybe trying a hooded litter box and seeing if being enclosed would make him feel safer?

Besides the box in the bedroom which is only sitting in the closet for lack of room the other boxes I think are placed appropriately in low traffic and slightly hidden areas. Unfortunately, my biggest problem is space when it comes to these things... I'm in a two bed room apartment right now and there just isn't a lot of options for litter placement.

I've had Leon since August 2014. Upon getting him, no problems and would use the box. When October rolled around and he started getting picked on that's when everything began. But this is the first accident in about two weeks.

Look on Amazon for good pet urine enzymatic cleaners.  Resolve is just covering up the odor.  You also can try a pet store.  They should be able to help you.

I wouldn't try a hooded box.  He could feel trapped.  You need him to feel safe. 

A question that comes to mind, how did you introduce the cats?  Cats are very territorial.  When you bring a new cat into the home, it upsets the apple cart.  Proper introductions need to be done or problems will arise.  Litter box problems often occur because one cat is being very dominant over the other. 

You may need to separate the cats and try introductions.  If you do, the cats need to have no face to face time with each other for awhile.  I can post articles for you if you are interested.  It takes time, but the cats need to learn to co exist peacefully. 

Do the cats ever fight?  Also are they all fixed? 

I know I definitely introduced them wrong. I didn't know then that there was a method, but now... I know a lot more about cats. They didn't fight, though, when Leon came home. It started a few months later and I want to say it was jealously over the baby kitten getting more attentioN than the 20 lb cat who doesn't fit well in my lap anymore!

I attempted an introduction but it didn't last long. I read a lot of articles where people said their cat of choice to put in the sanctuary room was the bully. So, I put Bit Bit in the room and she's at the door meowing for hours to get out if I'm not in there. She was scratching hair off her face I guess from stress. Roles reversed, Leon runs out of the room the second the door is opened. But I really wanted him to have the run of the house and feel comfortable there enough to use all the litter boxes.

Forgot to say, all litter gets cleaned up in the mornings and at night. Both are fixed.

As for fighting, she chases him and he hides. If she can get close enough she'll swat at him. As soon as she spots him in a room it's like she's absolutely consumed with the thought of him. She watches everything he does. He likes to hide under the couch and she will literally sit and watch him under there for hours. But it's also like she knows she's going to get in trouble if she gets caught... as soon as she sees me she will run away. She's obsessed with him though!

ciarabd said:

Forgot to say, all litter gets cleaned up in the mornings and at night. Both are fixed.

As for fighting, she chases him and he hides. If she can get close enough she'll swat at him. As soon as she spots him in a room it's like she's absolutely consumed with the thought of him. She watches everything he does. He likes to hide under the couch and she will literally sit and watch him under there for hours. But it's also like she knows she's going to get in trouble if she gets caught... as soon as she sees me she will run away. She's obsessed with him though!

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You really need to try and stop this behavior and the only way is to do reintroductions.  Yes, it will be a pain, but the poor cat who is being stalked and hides for hours.  That is not right.  No wonder the cat is afraid to use the litter box.  He probably has been ambushed in the litter box too.  You need to really separate these cats.  Being consumed with another cat is just not going to eventually stop.  I doubt he likes to hide under the couch.  It is probably the only place he feels safe and knows she won't attack him. 

Disciplining the aggressive cat is not going to work either.  Cats do not respond well to discipline.  Instead it teaches them to be fearful and afraid of you. 

Please consider separating the cats and starting reintroductions.  It may take lots of time, but you are going to have a cat that is going to pee everywhere and spend a life in fear.  That is not a very happy life.  I am sure it stresses you out too. 

Here are some links to introducing cats.  The same principals apply for reintroducing.  Yet they need to be completely separated.  Use lots of food rewards for both.  But give them a breather from each other and start them on a happier note.

http://www.thecatsite.com/a/the-ultimate-yet-simplified-guide-to-introducing-cats

http://www.catbehaviorassociates.com/a-simple-little-trick-to-use-during-new-cat-introductions/

http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/cat-behavior/introducing-your-cat-new-cat

http://jacksongalaxy.com/2010/10/01/cat-to-cat-introductions/

I understand that Leon is terrified of her and they need to be separated but it's really difficult in my two bedroom apartment. No matter what I do to keep them apart, they always manage to see each other because both are sitting at the door trying to break it down to get out. Bit will not eat when I put her in the room, meows for hours on end, claws the door and the carpet up trying to get out. Leon is a little more manageable about being put up but when the door opens he immediately runs out. I don't think it will help Leon to be locked up though, he needs to know he can venture out from under the couch.

I've read a million blogs and websites on reintroduction I just don't know how I can manage to do it without Bit Bit becoming extremely stressed out. She's so worried about getting out of the room she doesn't even acknowledge Leons smells.

At some point you have to ask yourself if you're willing to put in the kind of effort needed. As ShadowsRescue said, this is no way for a cat to live life; forever in fear and anxiety. They absolutely need to be separated and re-introduced, and a 2-bedroom is more space than most people have. Leon seems to do better being in the room. I would start with that. It's better for him to be "locked up" for a few weeks during reintroductions than spend every day for the rest of his life looking over his shoulders. With cat trees, hiding holes and vertical spaces, a whole bedroom is big enough for a cat to not feel "locked up". A little vigilance would prevent him from running out the door. It's worth the effort, and we're here to help you in absolutely every way we can.

Otherwise he may be better off in a household where he can roam freely without another cat bullying him.

I think you're getting the wrong picture here. Leon isn't walking around the house getting attacked with every step. Right now he's running around and playing. Yes, he is scared of her but I don't just throw them in a room together and let them have a go at each other.

Either way, I have been trying, and they are as stressed out as I am. There's nothing I can do to make them not absolutely hate being in a room alone.

ciarabd said:

 Leon isn't walking around the house getting attacked with every step. 

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Even if he isn't, from what you described and in your own words, he's "extremely stressed". Even if he's not getting attacked every step, he's being bullied often enough that it is a very terrible way to live life.

 Yes, he is scared of her but I don't just throw them in a room together and let them have a go at each other.

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Which is why you need to re-introduce them.

 There's nothing I can do to make them not absolutely hate being in a room alone.

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Once again, this is what a re-introduction is needed for. ShadowsRescue has linked many useful articles on how to do that. I encourage you to try those methods out, or if you already have, detail the steps you have taken. More specific details will help us pinpoint what can be done differently.

I think you're reading more into this than your cats ever would. They WILL survive being kept separate from each other, and as long as they have sufficient space to explore - even  if it's contained within one room of an apartment, they can at least feel safe for a reintroduction. It's not impossible to separate cats, no matter how desperate they are to see each other.

Use your body as a barrier, like propping your leg in the way of the door as you enter and exit. Toss treats to distract the cats as you open the door. Take advantage of times when they're napping to go in and out. Many, many, many people have been able to do introductions and reintroductions very successfully with less space than you have available, and probably with even more assertive cats. It may seem inconvenient to you now, but will a couple weeks of keeping a door closed be more inconvenient than years of Leon sulking around, anxious, and soiling your floors and belongings?

Your cats won't resolve this themselves, and they've shown that. It doesn't matter that you don't actively force them to engage with each other; they choose to do so anyway, or at least Bit does. You're contradicting some of the things you say, that they can't look at each other without claws being bared, but that Leon is happy and playing but fearful? Those things don't go together in a happy, well adjusted, confident cat, which is what we're aiming for.

There is no quick fix for this, and there is no way you can just tell them to get along and they would make it so. In all honesty, reintroducing them IS the easiest way to address this.

I understand that, and have for a while now. But you're right, I probably am reading more into it than I should. My cats truly are like children for me and it kills me to isolate them in a room and listen to them try to get Out, but if it helps them I'll do whatever it takes. When she stops eating and starts pulling her hair out though, I really don't feel like I'm helping either.

Anyways, how much do other cats affect the reintroduction process? Should I keep everyone out of the sanctuary room except for Bit and Leon to assure that only their smells mingle in that area or it doesn't really matter as they will be able to tell the difference?

Also, in a lot of videos it says that you should only feed them meals and not just "free feeding" to help them associate food with their respective smells. That's a slight issue for me as I'm usually gone for around 10 hours a day on the days of my classes so would it be ok to keep food near the door or what other method could I use? I don't want them to starve on days where I have to be out of the house for an extended period on certain days of course but I still want them to acknowledge and associate good things with each other.

How often is it that the cats should experience a room swap and can it be done too often? I wanted to at least rotate it where each night one is out, then the next night that one is in the room so that they don't think one gets special treatment because he's always allowed to sleep in the bedroom etc if that makes sense?

ciarabd said:

My cats truly are like children for me and it kills me to isolate them in a room and listen to them try to get Out, but if it helps them I'll do whatever it takes.

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I know how you feel, and I can say with certainty that most members here feel the same way. The whining will get to you -- I always feel like the worst human being in the world when I put my cat in a carrier to go to the vet, and he makes really pathetic meows. But the alternative -- where he will be sick and miserable until he is treated -- is much worse, and I think about that as I steel myself and ignore his whines in the carrier.

ciarabd said:

When she stops eating and starts pulling her hair out though, I really don't feel like I'm helping either.

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You're right. That's why I think Leon is much better suited to be in the sanctuary room. Bit is also your resident kitty, with Leon being the (somewhat) newcomer.

ciarabd said:

Should I keep everyone out of the sanctuary room except for Bit and Leon to assure that only their smells mingle in that area or it doesn't really matter as they will be able to tell the difference?

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No one should be in the room except for Leon. Bit should be outside. They will not see each other at all in the first phase. I'm re-linking for reference:

http://www.thecatsite.com/a/the-ultimate-yet-simplified-guide-to-introducing-cats

http://www.catbehaviorassociates.com/a-simple-little-trick-to-use-during-new-cat-introductions/

http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/cat-behavior/introducing-your-cat-new-cat

http://jacksongalaxy.com/2010/10/01/cat-to-cat-introductions/

In the first phase, you're doing scent swaps. Pretend as if they've never met each other, and you just brought Leon home for the first time. The first phase can take days, weeks even. Don't rush the process. The goal in this phase is to get each other used to their scents. 

ciarabd said:

Also, in a lot of videos it says that you should only feed them meals and not just "free feeding" to help them associate food with their respective smells. That's a slight issue for me as I'm usually gone for around 10 hours a day on the days of my classes so would it be ok to keep food near the door or what other method could I use?

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You can leave some food for them; one outside, one inside, directly opposite the door. Do the meals when you're home (for example, when you wake up, and when you go to bed). You don't want to starve them, but at the same time, the meals help them associated each other's scent with something nice (food).

ciarabd said:

How often is it that the cats should experience a room swap and can it be done too often? I wanted to at least rotate it where each night one is out, then the next night that one is in the room so that they don't think one gets special treatment because he's always allowed to sleep in the bedroom etc if that makes sense?

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I would wait until they're comfortable with towel swaps and meal-at-the-door first. A few days, a week, maybe even a couple of weeks. I would save room swaps for phase 2. Once you do that though, every other night is okay.

It's very tempting to want to rush the process and get them to be friends, but it doesn't work that way. Ultimately, only they can tell you when they're ready to co-exist, and sometimes, some cats just have to be only cats.

It is definitely going to be a painful process. Leon is only about a year old and so playful and rambunctious. He's going to miss playing all night with his best buddy Greg but I really do know this is no life for a cat.. I really do just hate the idea of them being alone all day. Hopefully this only takes a few weeks! Thank you for the encouraging words and the help. I know I'm not the first or last person dealing with this, if only it weren't so difficult to have just one cat!