Hercules and Ritz, sitting in a tree, not kissing (yet?)

I've mentioned before about this cat I am fostering (adopting). TNRd by me in May 2012; always been inordinately friendly. About six months after I first TNRd him, he showed up with a chunk of fur missing that had been professionally clean and sutured. Clearly, he has at least one other caretaker and favorable exposure to humans. Weight is fine.
When it was bitter cold in February I simply picked him up, but him in a cat carrier and took him home with me. ("FOUND Cat" notices went unanswered.) Followed suggestions on TCS and reading. Screen door was very very useful.
About two weeks ago I let them out together for the first time. Ritz charged at Hercules but then stopped short when Hercules did not react. They have progressed to Ritz sniffing Hercules butt and Ritz and Hercules sniffing each others’ noses. Hercules has (had....) always submitted to Ritz; he's walk away or around Ritz, honoring her Alpha stage. Ritz will hiss and sometimes growl if Hercules got too close.
But last week things changed, perhaps because Hercules is very much at home in his new place. To wit: there are two cat condos and one tall cat tree next to each other, facing the garden/front yard, where foxes/rabbits/squirrels/deer/only animals cats can see frequent. Best chair in the house. Ritz was sitting on the far left one (again, these condos/tree about two hands worth apart from each other), Hercules walked up to the cat condo and took a swipe at Ritz to get her off the condo. Ritz of course obeyed, cowered under the table for a while. Yesterday while I was in another room, I heard hissing/growling on both Herc’s and Ritz’ part and based on what I observed, it was Hercules who was chasing Ritz.
But just today Ritz was on top of her cat tree and Hercules under her in the tunnel; and both were enjoying the sights outside. And they will share a sofa (Ritz on my lap, Hercules on the other side of the sofa).
My question is: why the role reversal? Will/does Ritz need to reassert her independence, which only she can do. I can’t do it for her (life lesson somewhere here…..). Ritz is prone to stress induced UTIs and calming remedies don’t have any effect on her. And advice?
Thanks for reading.
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...=d8b291ec9f3f898a12374e9153abcc9f&oe=55AB29B8

When Marvin came into the house, my resident cat, Jake was the top cat.  He was more of the aggressor.  He wanted to be in charge.  Then after a few weeks, it switched and Jake was very submissive with Marvin being the aggressor.  It continued this way for awhile.  Jake was actually scared of Marvin.  Then over time, the rolls switched again.  Now Marvin is very submissive and Jake is back to top kitty.  I have heard that there can only be one alpha cat.  It's not always the cat that was first there.  I think they had to work it out.  It took about a year and a half.

Sounds like your two are making great progress. 

It's so wonderful to see them together like this, hisses and all! Well done! 

I think you're very right not to intervene. Like you said, no one except Ritz can assert her position. Why do some cats become the "top cat" is anyone's guess. I think only the cats know and understand the intricacies which are probably related to scent more than we realize. The same goes for role reversal, which could happen again in the future. 

Don't you wish you could sit Ritz down for a talk and have her explain these things?  I know I wish I could have cats explain their mysteries sometimes. 

I'm afraid cat politics are a mystery to me. The hierarchy here seems to change on a daily basis, although it's usually the smaller females who are the top cats and the big dumb boys who get bossed around.

Susy, who seems to be the alpha cat more often than not, suffers from stress related UTI's as well. She's much better now that we've moved house and there aren't as many other cats around. 

Is Ritz on a prescription diet for her UTI? I had Susy on one but it didn't make any difference at all.

Thanks for the insight/advice, though I vacilate daily/hourly whether to keep Hercules or adopt out/return to colony. Patience is not my strong suit; nor is seeing Ritz unhappy, stressed.
I need to sit down with Hercules and explain these things about Ritz--how they are alike in some ways (both abandoned by inhumane humans), Ritz is more sensitive than Hercules, and while I know some of what you (Hercules) does is innocent (he loves his cat nip and, well, he's a guy), Ritz is frightened by it.
I have told Ritz that it is ultimately her decision whether we keep Hercules. And said a prayer to Saint Francis of Assisi.
Ritz is on prey model raw, has been for several years, and had one or two UTIs in that period, one of which was bacteria based ('bad meat" said the vet).

I wonder if trying the calming remedies on Hercules would have any effect. Maybe if he was more chilled out he wouldn't bother Ritz so much?

That's a good idea; although calming remedies don't work on Ritz, maybe they will work on Hercules.
Hercules got into another tiff with Ritz yesterday; put Herc in his safe/cat room. Ritz jumped right up onto my lap and went to sleep. Not sure how to interpret that.

any progress? I'm hoping to get some clues of how to make Oberon and Sassy Josephine to get along

What I've tried:

-  the homeopathic rescue remedy drops (both instantly ignored treats with those sprinkled on. Both were mad at me for sprinkling them onto their backs.)

- treats for both of them when they were in the midst of facing off (worked until the treats were gone)

- playing with a cat wand with both of them at the same time (with each capturing the wand when it was their turn and refusing to give it up) 

- putting a calming collar on Sassy Josephine (made her eyes swell up so I had to take her to the vet)

what I'll try next:

- switching the beastie band collars they are wearing so each has to smell the other constantly

(which sounds a bit mean so I haven't done it yet)

have you tried any of the feliway plugs?

Thanks for checking up.
Yes I've tried the feliway plugs, including a new one for multi-cats that my holistic vet ordered for me.
None of the calming homeopathic supplements work on Ritz, although I am using up the bottle of Jackson Galazy's stress buster in Hercules' food.

Hercules has now started to charge Ritz without any provocation. Usually Ritz runs away and hides, but once she happened to be on her back, belly exposed, claws out. Growling and hissing on both parts. Yet the night before, Ritz was on my lap sleeping/dozing, and Hercules jumped up on the sofa. He wanted to move closer to my lap, but I gently guided him away from my lap/Ritz. He settled down quite nicely, quickly, adorable, fully stretched out length wise against the back of the sofa, for a nice petting session/dozing. Meanwhile with my other hand I'm trying to pet Ritz and make her feel Number One.

My friend the cat mentor, who rescued, socialized and fostered Ritz, had a good idea: next time Hercules acts up, put him in an unsafe-to-him, unfamiliar room, not the room he is use to, i.e., the one I fed him in, sometimes sleeps and always poops/pees in! I have a small bathroom I could put him in for his next time out. Ideally, I'd put him in a cat carrier (which he hates and I probably couldn't get him in it quickly enough) or large dog crate (which I may be able to borrow from my friend the cat mentor). Hercules has to learn there are bad/unpleasant consequences for his behavior. I know he is doing what a cat does naturally, but I won't tolerate it at the expense of Ritz.

I also make sure they have individual time with me. I guide Hercules into her cat room and shut the door so it is just me and Ritz; and in the morning, when Ritz likes to stay in my bedroom looking outside at the deer/fox/squirrels/birds, I shut that door, so it's just me and Hercules.

Good luck with Oberon and Sassy Josephine !

Ritz said:

My friend the cat mentor, who rescued, socialized and fostered Ritz, had a good idea: next time Hercules acts up, put him in an unsafe-to-him, unfamiliar room, not the room he is use to, i.e., the one I fed him in, sometimes sleeps and always poops/pees in! I have a small bathroom I could put him in for his next time out. Ideally, I'd put him in a cat carrier (which he hates and I probably couldn't get him in it quickly enough) or large dog crate (which I may be able to borrow from my friend the cat mentor). Hercules has to learn there are bad/unpleasant consequences for his behavior. I know he is doing what a cat does naturally, but I won't tolerate it at the expense of Ritz.

 

Click to expand...

I really do not agree with this.  It is teaching Hercules to fear you and possibly Ritz.  I think it's fine to put him in a room for a short time out, but not in a room where he might be afraid.  He will then just associate you and Ritz as something to be afraid of.  The goal is for coexistence and possibly friends not fear. 

The process is one that can be very very slow.  My two took a solid year.  I had to do timeouts with Marvin, but only to his safe room.  It was not a room he would be afraid in, but his normal safe room.  I put him there for 15-30 minutes and then try again.  If he still went after Jake, he stayed a bit longer.  This worked almost every time.  I did not yell at him.  I calmly told him this was not acceptable behavior and he needed a time out.  I hoped he would choose a different behavior next time.  If he did it for a 3rd time, the cats were separated for the rest of the day and I tried again the next day. 

As far as the dog crate.  I used it as a socializing tool, but not a punishment.  I placed one cat inside the crate and covered it on 3 sides with a sheet.  I then allowed safe sniffing.  I fed each cat fresh plain cooked chicken or a special treat.  THey learned to associate yummy chicken with each other.  I then got a long shoe string and put it mostly inside the crate.  I would slowly pull it out.  The cat inside loved it and then the cat outside the crate wanted to play too.  They played and ate chicken.  The sessions started out lasting less than 5 minutes and gradually built.  If there was too much hissing or growling the session was over.   I tried to do this 3x a day.  Marvin generally did not like going into the crate, but Jake was fine with it.  He would do anything for chicken. 

You want the associations to be positive between the cats.  If Hercules is acting out towards Ritz, you need to back up the process and go a bit slower.    They both want your attention and right now they are not socialized enough with each other to know how to act with you. 

Just my .02.

I have an education in animal behavior and I can tell you that cats do not respond well to methods like this.Dogs would learn from that but Herc will just become stressed . The cats are working out their territories and should end up fine with each other.You have said they do share space at times without hissing etc. Just keep putting Herc into the safe room when problems arise.

 I recently went through this with my Desmond and new guy Milo.

For the most part things were fine but a few times a day Milo would try to wrestle with Des and Desmond was get very hissy, ears flat etc. At those times I put Milo into the safe room.I Had him sleep in that room every night for months Eventually I had to put Desmond in the room overnight . I adopted Milo last Sept. now everything is great. Desmond only gets hissy every few weeks and Milo walks away.