Day-Old Abandoned Litter of Five

dustytiger · Feb 7, 2015

I honestly have no idea what to do if that's the case. Both of the vets I took the kittens to recommended it, and the web site as well as the packaging says that it contains essential fats for kittens but now that I've read the actual fat content it's only 5% when most websites say kittens should be getting anything from 10-20%. So I should substitute it for goats milk? I could try and find some. I could also see if there are any alternative kitten milk formulas on the shelves. For the time being is there anything I could do for them before I've found the goats milk? Like an emergency diet I can start them on and help them gain some of the fat they've been missing??

This is awful. None of them seem to be in critical condition at the moment, but if that's the case then there's no telling when they might reach that point. I really felt like they weren't getting as big as they ought to be, but I had no idea why and I took them to the vet again to have them looked at and he said that everything was fine as long as they were meowing and that I wouldn't be seeing much growth while they were at this age. I don't think I can trust his judgement anymore about the kittens. I was starting to worry that they had worms which was stopping their growth because when I previously raised kittens they gained weight very rapidly. At the time I used to see a different vet who handed me bags of powder which he said were his own recipe for kitten formula.

I'm absolutely furious. The current vet I've been taking them to has been telling me that I should expect at least one of them to die and "try not to save ALL of them, just be proud of the ones I DO save" because they don't have antibodies and then giving me a formula that starves them! I'm starting to doubt that any of them know what they're doing! I'm going to go BERSERK on somebody! I swear, I'm going to raise hell if these kittens don't make it because none of the new vets seem to know what they're doing! I did NOT struggle for this long to let them die!

I should probably stop ranting. I'm sorry, I'm just so frustrated and worried for the little guys. Is there some kind of crash course diet I can start them on? It's already time for their next feeding and I don't know what to do anymore!

Kat0121 · Feb 7, 2015

DustyTiger said:
I honestly have no idea what to do if that's the case. Both of the vets I took the kittens to recommended it, and the web site as well as the packaging says that it contains essential fats for kittens but now that I've read the actual fat content it's only 5% when most websites say kittens should be getting anything from 10-20%. So I should substitute it for goats milk? I could try and find some. I could also see if there are any alternative kitten milk formulas on the shelves. For the time being is there anything I could do for them before I've found the goats milk? Like an emergency diet I can start them on and help them gain some of the fat they've been missing??

This is awful. None of them seem to be in critical condition at the moment, but if that's the case then there's no telling when they might reach that point. I really felt like they weren't getting as big as they ought to be, but I had no idea why and I took them to the vet again to have them looked at and he said that everything was fine as long as they were meowing and that I wouldn't be seeing much growth while they were at this age. I don't think I can trust his judgement anymore about the kittens. I was starting to worry that they had worms which was stopping their growth because when I previously raised kittens they gained weight very rapidly. At the time I used to see a different vet who handed me bags of powder which he said were his own recipe for kitten formula.

I'm absolutely furious. The current vet I've been taking them to has been telling me that I should expect at least one of them to die and "try not to save ALL of them, just be proud of the ones I DO save" because they don't have antibodies and then giving me a formula that starves them! I'm starting to doubt that any of them know what they're doing! I'm going to go BERSERK on somebody! I swear, I'm going to raise hell if these kittens don't make it because none of the new vets seem to know what they're doing! I did NOT struggle for this long to let them die!

I should probably stop ranting. I'm sorry, I'm just so frustrated and worried for the little guys. Is there some kind of crash course diet I can start them on? It's already time for their next feeding and I don't know what to do anymore!

Are you in the US? Wal Mart sells quarts of goat milk.It's by the soy and almond milks

catapault · Feb 7, 2015

@StefanZ and @catwoman707 what are your opinions on this - how about mixing a raw egg yolk into the kitten milk that @DustyTyger does have. Just in the short term until she can find goat milk and / or KMR (kitten milk replacer) It should add more fat and nutrients.

Edited to add: If you are concerned about salmonella most bacteria are on the outside / shell of the egg. Here's a home technique I found online to pasteurize raw eggs without cooking them.

"To pasteurize large eggs, place them in a saucepan filled with water and fitted with a digital thermometer. Turn on the heat and bring the water up to 140F.
Keep the water temperature at 140F for 3 minutes (and no more than 142F), reducing the heat on the burner if necessary. Remove eggs from hot water and rinse thoroughly with cold water.
Store in the refrigerator until needed or use right away."

catwoman707 · Feb 7, 2015

Wow how did I miss this thread?!

StefanZ has been very helpful, and has alot of great knowledge.

Of course since I do as well I feel this need to jump in here too!!

PLEASE get KMR immediately, they are getting a very rough start in life, as the milk they have been getting is not anything for newborn babies at all. It is very much lacking in nutrients and fat that they so badly need at this time.

So first thing in the am, run and get a can of powdered kmr.

You REALLY need a scale too, if you want these babies to live you must be able to weight them daily so you know if they are getting enough formula, and gaining daily.

8 mls per ounce of weight a day. This is the rule you will go by.

By now they should be using a bottle, when held upside down the nipple will quickly form a drop but until you gently shake it down it won't drop off, that's when you know the hole is appropriately cut.

Did I read right that you have the black smallest one separate? I sure do hope not! This is not what you want to do. They will all have worms, they all do and will need deworming when they get bigger. There is not anything wrong with the smallest other than size and strength, but the milk they've been on is not going to do them any good at all.

I am also very concerned about the water bottle as a heat source.

This is just not consistent enough of a temperature for them.

They need to be a constant 96-99 degrees at all times.

Under 96 and organs become dormant and will not digest the milk, causing death.

I'm afraid most vets are actually clueless with newborns! They truly are, I had to learn that myself many years ago. Clueless.

When you first got them, did they have their umbilical cords still? If so, they were 2 days old or less.

BY 3 days old the cord falls off.

They do look young in the picture, def. under a week, just a few days I'd say.

If that was 3 days ago then I think tomorrow they may be about a week old.

Did the vet at least tell you the right way to hold and feed them, etc?

Drives me crazy how little help they are with newborns. Ugh!

Are you able to contact rescues in search of a lactating momma cat as a surrogate? This is your best bet. Raising 5 newborns is a full time job for sure.

You can pull them all through this, but you must have a scale, kmr, a bottle, and a heating pad for them.

As for your cat, I would allow her to see them and even keep them warm/clean/pottied, she may do all of this!

Give her a chance, she won't kill them. You will know how she behaves with them right away actually.

StefanZ · Feb 7, 2015

Catapault said:
@StefanZ and @catwoman707 what are your opinions on this - how about mixing a raw egg yolk into the kitten milk that @DustyTyger does have. Just in the short term until she can find goat milk and / or KMR (kitten milk replacer) It should add more fat and nutrients.

Edited to add: If you are concerned about salmonella most bacteria are on the outside / shell of the egg. Here's a home technique I found online to pasteurize raw eggs without cooking them.

"To pasteurize large eggs, place them in a saucepan filled with water and fitted with a digital thermometer. Turn on the heat and bring the water up to 140F.
Keep the water temperature at 140F for 3 minutes (and no more than 142F), reducing the heat on the burner if necessary. Remove eggs from hot water and rinse thoroughly with cold water.
Store in the refrigerator until needed or use right away."

Yes, it should work.   Egg yolk is used in many receipts for emergency kitten milk.    @DustyTiger

Re the "pasteurizing" of egg shells. There are easier ways, I think.

Have the egg in a clean sink. Pour boiling water on it for a short while!

You can even make it more forcefully, and have some liquid soap in this water too...   Rinse off afterwards, by pouring clean water, dont need to be hot, enough with hand warm.

Be careful when cracking open the shell, so the shell does not touch the yolk.

You can train on some eggs before you do it for sharp. to use for kittens.   What becomes of the training eggs you can make an omelett for yourself, or for your healthy adult cat.

The same with the white of the egg. Raw white of the egg isnt so good for cats. So use it for humans, as omelette or baking something with it.

dustytiger · Feb 8, 2015

catwoman707 said:
Wow how did I miss this thread?!

StefanZ has been very helpful, and has alot of great knowledge.

Of course since I do as well I feel this need to jump in here too!!

PLEASE get KMR immediately, they are getting a very rough start in life, as the milk they have been getting is not anything for newborn babies at all. It is very much lacking in nutrients and fat that they so badly need at this time.

So first thing in the am, run and get a can of powdered kmr.

You REALLY need a scale too, if you want these babies to live you must be able to weight them daily so you know if they are getting enough formula, and gaining daily.

8 mls per ounce of weight a day. This is the rule you will go by.

By now they should be using a bottle, when held upside down the nipple will quickly form a drop but until you gently shake it down it won't drop off, that's when you know the hole is appropriately cut.

Did I read right that you have the black smallest one separate? I sure do hope not! This is not what you want to do. They will all have worms, they all do and will need deworming when they get bigger. There is not anything wrong with the smallest other than size and strength, but the milk they've been on is not going to do them any good at all.

I am also very concerned about the water bottle as a heat source.

This is just not consistent enough of a temperature for them.

They need to be a constant 96-99 degrees at all times.

Under 96 and organs become dormant and will not digest the milk, causing death.

I'm afraid most vets are actually clueless with newborns! They truly are, I had to learn that myself many years ago. Clueless.

When you first got them, did they have their umbilical cords still? If so, they were 2 days old or less.

BY 3 days old the cord falls off.

They do look young in the picture, def. under a week, just a few days I'd say.

If that was 3 days ago then I think tomorrow they may be about a week old.

Did the vet at least tell you the right way to hold and feed them, etc?

Drives me crazy how little help they are with newborns. Ugh!

Are you able to contact rescues in search of a lactating momma cat as a surrogate? This is your best bet. Raising 5 newborns is a full time job for sure.

You can pull them all through this, but you must have a scale, kmr, a bottle, and a heating pad for them.

As for your cat, I would allow her to see them and even keep them warm/clean/pottied, she may do all of this!

Give her a chance, she won't kill them. You will know how she behaves with them right away actually.

I'm going to try and answer things as much in order as I can.

Honestly, I'm having a ton of trouble finding a suitable KMR. I went to a ton of different pet shops and I've only been finding supplements and puppy milk. I got Parie Goat Milk Powder for puppies, because that's the only kind of goat milk I could find, but I'm honestly scared to give it to them at this point. Would it be okay to? Or would it just cause more problems because it's aimed at puppies and not kittens?

They CAN use a bottle, though honestly I've been using a syringe to keep better track of their intake, but I'll put them back on bottles.

The smallest one is NOT separated because I did a lot of googling and came to the same conclusion, tbh.

I don't think that temperature is exactly that much of an issue, I live in a topical country and it's always about 96 degrees here. The bottles are mainly for snuggle purposes as things rarely ever get actually cold here.

They did have their umbilical chords when I found them and they have since fallen off.

I've had previous experience holding and feeding babies before, so I'm pretty confident I know how to. I also watched a ton of youtube videos explaining and demonstrating different methods just to be safe.

There aren't really many shelter or rescue services where I am. People here don't really have animals as a priority. I called one that was closest to me but they said all the cats they had were spayed and none of them were lactating.

I tried showing one to my cat earlier but she hissed and ran away. She didn't seem to have any intention of hurting it, but she was definitely scared.

For now I'm going to try and mix the egg yolk with the milk I've been giving them until I know if the Goat Milk Powder for puppies is safe to use.

I'll update with the kitten's weights in a bit, as well as all the nutritional facts about the goat milk powder

dustytiger · Feb 8, 2015

I took their weights and these are them,

Big Tabby-- 100g

Big Black-- 95g

Small Tabby--95g

Black and white- 85g

Small Black-- 85g

Ugh, this isn't looking good.

I snapped a screenshot of the nutritional facts for the goat milk powder for puppies and here's what I got,

nutritionfacts.png

dustytiger
Feb 8, 2015

Would it be okay to use, or is it no good?

StefanZ · Feb 8, 2015

I know goat milk is useful for puppies too, so I want to believe powder milk for puppies for should be OK for kittens too.    But I dont really know.

But looking on the package of powdered goat milk I do have at home, I see the proportions are rather different: Proteins 22,5 g, fats 28g, carbos 43 g. In 100 gram dry powder. Ready made: 23 grammes in a cup, fill up with warm water till its 200 ml..., such milk will contain 3,2% fat.

I strongly suspect "my" powder is closer to the originale goat milk. It sounds just about right.

They "Puppiespeople" seems to have changed the formula, less of proteins and fat, giving more carbos. Still, Its probably better than this treat milk you had so far.

Sorry, I cant give you firesure advice at this moment.

The only I can say, try this variation for puppies, or the or the other alternative, the treat milk with egg yolk in.

In the time, proceed to seek more normal goat milk or goat milk powder.   Or some decent kmr, where the brand KMR in powder is the best and safest.

Send some friend to run around the city and seek, I suppose you yourself dont have the time - you must sleep too sometimes.

Good luck! @DustyTiger

StefanZ · Feb 8, 2015

I tried to google. They themselves tell about their pure goat milk powder, imported from Holland. They dont say about any changes.

So I dearly hope its quite normal goat milk powder, and the puppies is mostly as a marketing trick: there is more money in selling to puppies and dogs, than selling to kittens...

I want to think, this should be OK, even if the contains is somewhat different than the powder I do have made in Poland.

If you find a more clear cut variation use that.

But for beginning, try this here, it should be good enough, I pray and hope.

Good luck! @DustyTiger

dustytiger · Feb 8, 2015

Thank you all so much! Caring for these kittens is turning out to be quite a roller-coaster, but hopefully it'll turn out alright. They seem to be hanging on in spite of the tough ride we've had so far. I'll give the goat milk a try and see what happens. I just really want to see them gain weight and grow up properly. The big tabby even seems to be close to opening its eyes!

reba · Feb 8, 2015

Boy are you bringing back memories, I had a b**** of a time figuring out how much they should eat. I do remember once I figured it out, I would mix up just enough formula for each kitten and feed them in separate bottles so I could keep track of how each one was doing.

I used GNC powdered milk replacer available form Petsmart until the shelter gave me KMR. When I had to buy it, I got the KMR from Amazon or Tractor Supply Stores.

I finally bought a box of pet-ag nursing bottles from Amazon because it was just cheaper/easier:

I would say hands down, this was the most helpful cheat sheet in terms of hand-rearing kittens:

http://messybeast.com/handrear.htm

It also mentions what people are talking about above as far as non-commercial formula and a recipe for something called kitten glop as well as rehydration formula - like I said there's a lot there in terms of resources.

I also found I needed to pedialyte on hand. The videos from Maddie's fund were great to, though it sounds like you have more experience than I did.

I agree with everyone who said the vets are clueless. Is there a mobile vet in your area?

catwoman707 · Feb 8, 2015

DustyTiger said:
Would it be okay to use, or is it no good?

Here is the ingredient list for kmr-

Not showing in as good detail as yours but ingredients listed are in order of content volume.

KMR^{[emoji]174[/emoji]} Powder for Kittens

Ingredients: Whey Protein Concentrate, Casein, Dried Skimmed Milk, Vegetable Oil, Butter Fat, Corn Syrup Solids, Egg Yolk, Monocalcium Phosphate Lactose, L-arginine, Lechithin, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Potassium Phosphate Monobasic, Dicalcium Phosphate, Magnesium Carbonate, Taurine, Potassium Phosphate Dibasic, Magnesium Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Zinc Sulfate, Dipotassium Phosphate, Silico Aluminate, Niacin Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Copper Sulfate, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin B₁₂ Supplement, Calcium Pantothnate Manganese Sulfate Vitamin D₃ Supplement, Ethylenediamine Dihydroiodide, Folic Acid, Riboflavin, Thiamine Hydrochloride, Pyroxine Hydrochloride, Biotin, and Mono and Diglycerides.

Nutritional Information:

Guaranteed Analysis

Crude Protein	40.0% Min
Crude Fiber	0.0% Max
Crude Fat	27.0% Min
Ash	7.0% Max
Moisture	5.0% Max

So as we see, the nutritional needs are quite different, especially noticing the taurine, which is critical for cats.

I think it should be okay to feed, but only until kmr is acquired.

Can you order it online and rush shipping maybe?

catwoman707 · Feb 8, 2015

You know who might be really best to ask is @LDG

Let's see what she thinks.

jcat · Feb 8, 2015

Reba said:
I would say hands down, this was the most helpful cheat sheet in terms of hand-rearing kittens:

http://messybeast.com/handrear.htm

It also mentions what people are talking about above as far as non-commercial formula and a recipe for something called kitten glop as well as rehydration formula - like I said there's a lot there in terms of resources.

I also found I needed to pedialyte on hand.

Very useful info, especially the kitten glop recipe. There's a very similar one from kitten-rescue.com here: What to feed

dustytiger · Feb 8, 2015

@Reba,

thank you so much for the helpful information, as well as the helpful links! I have read the cheat sheet and, I'm not gonna lie, reading about all the things that could go wrong had me reeling for a few seconds, but after the initial terror and further reading I feel much more prepared to deal with any of those awful situations should they arise. I've also decided to copy down the recipes and hang them on the fridge just in case--seeing as if I can't get my hands on KMR I'm going to need all of them.

@catwoman707,

I was worried that might be the case. I'm going to check out one last pet shop--a new one that opened recently-- tomorrow and see if they might have any options. I've went there a few times to get food for my adult cat, Juliet, who was starved by her previous owners and developed liver problems when she was a kitten , and they've helped me get her back to a healthy weight. I was going to go there sooner, but it's several hours away and I haven't wanted to leave the kittens for that long so I was just checking the nearby places first. As it is, I'm going to be dropping the babies off at my sister's house and showing her how to feed and care for them while I got see if they have any. I'm hoping they might have some KMR on the shelves or at least know someone who does. If they don't, I'll have to see if I can order it, but I honestly don't know when it'd arrive so I'm looking for some temporary alternatives to keep the kittens going until then.

@jcat,

Thank you! It really helps to have alternate recipes just in case.

I really appreciate all the help everyone here has been giving me!

catapault · Feb 8, 2015

Before you go driving off - Can you telephone the newly opened pet store to A) see if they have KMR and / or B) any suggestions for where to get it if they do not have it?

dustytiger · Feb 8, 2015

Honestly, the store clerks at the pet stores here seem as clueless as the vets about what is and isn't KMR. I asked all the stores I visited over the phone if they had KMR first, and they ALL said yes they did (cruelly getting my hopes up, if I might add. *sobs*), and then upon arriving there I found only supplement milk for adult cats or they attempted to sell me stuff I didn't actually need. In fact, the clerk that gave me the goat-milk powder that I have now--the one that has the word "Puppy" written pretty much everywhere they could possibly squeeze the word in-- insisted that it was for ALL animals and that I could even give it to my hamster if I had one, so I'm just going to go everywhere myself since I'm inevitably going to get dragged down there by employees telling me what I want to hear anyway. Since I'm gonna be there, I might as well ask them in person where I might find some if they don't have any on the shelves.

catapault · Feb 8, 2015

Just thought that with the fatigue you are no doubt experiencing the "go there and get it" might have overwhelmed any thought of letting your fingers do the walking.

I've heard goat milk referred to as "Type O" because it is suitable for all animals (puppies, kittens, hamsters . . .) but that might be the fresh milk. And it wouldn't work for seals which need super amounts of fat from their momma's milk.

Good hunting. Hope you find the "real" KMR

reba · Feb 8, 2015

Well that's pretty maddening. Perhaps, to save you all the running around, they can grab a can and tell you what it looks like. It's Pet-Ag KMR. Picture of cute little silver-ear tipped kitten on front of every can.

Seriously, the GNC stuff at PetSmart worked fine at first. Unfortunately they don't sell the powered KMR at Petsmart and only sell the liquid online (and boy did I have problems when I used the liquid - it was just too rich for their system). I got from Amazon, but you jogged my memory that it did take for-ev-er because they shipped it ground from the West Coast. Tractor supply was the only place I found it on the shelf.

Have you considered asking the shelter if you you could buy some from them if they have it. Mine was great that way, in fact they gave it to me for the first few weeks.

riley1 · Feb 8, 2015

Don't know how I missed this tread either. I am a experienced foster, as well. I take kittens from the shelter all spring, summer & fall. From the picture you sent I don't believe they are newborns. Their ears are fully up & I assume their eyes are open as well. Sometimes, if not feed enough they are just small. Here is a link for how much to feed them.

http://www.maddiesfund.org/search-r....maddiesfund.org/index.htm&ss=4725j4293899j17

If you can't see it, go to Maddie's Fund & enter feeding kittens in the search box. It is a chart to feed them by weigh, stomach capacity & timing of feedings. At this age they should be feed about every two hours round the clock. If they are asleep you should wake them up for feeding. Maddie's fund is a wealth of information on all things kitten even if you are experienced. Could you order a type of KMR over the internet? They also sell something called First Milk for the antibodies. At this point they may be too old for the absorption.

I would not let your resident cat anywhere near them. When I fostered & Rizzo was here, I would change my clothes & use hand sanitizer each time I would leave the room. Also, put booties on my shoes. Even so, kittens usually have URIs and can be easily transmitted to your adult cat. If the kittens develop URI's they need antibiotics They need distemper shots in three series. Also, although rare FIP, FIV & Feluc can be transmitted from the mother to the kittens. You are right to deworm them but many dewormers are not safe for kittens. Neither are ear mite or flea medication. My kittens gain 3 oz per week on average. If they don't start gaining after you get the right thing to feed them, there is something wrong.

I hope this is of help & I did not repeat a lot of what has been already been said.

Good luck & thank you for helping these homeless & orphan babies.

Day-Old Abandoned Litter of Five

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