Liver Only - No Other Secreting Organ

abby2932

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My cat Malibu is starting to have really smelly, mucous-y stool again. The first time this happened, I realized he couldn't handle lamb or beef. Well, I introduced pork recently and I thought he was doing just fine with it (he was having normal, raw poop). Over time, I'm noticing that it is smelling more than Kali's poop and yesterday it was very mucous-y and VERY smelly. I'm going to take the pork out of the rotation for about a month and see how he does. I feel bad that he can't eat anything other than poultry or rabbit but I just don't know what to do about that.

For his PMR portion of his diet (since HT changed their quail supplier) I was going to use 5% duck livers from HT and 5% pork kidney or spleen from my local butcher. Since Malibu is intolerant to red meat (definitely beef and lamb & now, possibly pork) I don't know where to get another secreting organ. HT only has beef kidney and my butcher only has non-liver organs from beef, pork, goat and lamb. They do have poultry liver but no other organs from poultry or rabbit. 

So....I looked at the recipe on www.catinfo.org and she only uses liver, no other organ. She uses about 7.5%. Then I looked at the recipe on feline-nutrition.org and theirs only uses about 7.5% liver as well, no other organ. I know it is ideal to use the 5% liver and 5% other organ but if I can only use liver, does anyone know the correct ratio?

Would it be 80/10/10? Or is 10% liver too much and that's why Dr. Pierson only uses around 7-8%?

Thanks in advance,
 

furmonster mom

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I believe Dr. Pierson's recipe includes other supplements that might be otherwise covered by the "secreting organ" category.  That could be how she manages with liver only.
 

peaches08

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Dr. P used to use the Nutricology Immoplex Glandular capsules, but I think she stopped using them.  I use them only when using a meat/liver or meat/bone/liver grind chicken thighs with bone or pork or beef.

From everything I've read, 10% liver won't hurt cats necessarily and often times to meet the recipe requirements I add a little extra since one container won't quite be enough but 2 containers with smaller amounts will be a bit over what's required, but be aware that some cats find liver to be too "rich" for them and may get an upset tummy on the higher amount.  I wouldn't go lower than the amount suggested in Dr. P's recipe, though.  And ounce or two in big batches won't matter quite that much but I wouldn't drastically reduce the amount of liver.  If any of that makes sense. 

Also I believe @LDG and maybe some others use the individual glandular supplements.  I think some of her cats have different requirements is why, like giving this cat the powdered glandular because he won't eat kidney and giving this other cat extra of whatever because of a chronic condition.  Until this business with Freckles, all of mine were healthy and I just wanted to give a more complete diet as far as other organs:  http://www.thecatsite.com/t/262985/nutricology-immoplex-glandular-and-increased-water.  Mine still drink more water, but I just don't worry about it.  They pee a lot and there's nothing off about the pee, and they play, look healthy...so I just ignore it.
 

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I was reading this thread with interest, because I only just started adding the Immoplex multiglandular supplement to anything that isn't a whole animal grind.  The extra insurance is nice and frankly it's easier than procuring and feeding non-liver organs.  Will watch for the increased peeing issue. 
 
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abby2932

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Thanks for the input everyone! 


I did look into the glandular supplements. However, they are all made with organs (kidney, spleen, pancreas, etc) from either beef, pork or lamb. All of which my cat is sensitive to. I think people use those  when they either can't source organ or their cat won't eat it fresh, like @peaches08  mentioned.

My situation is a bit different in that I can get beef kidney (and I will, for my girl Kali) and Malibu would eat it if I served it to him but it messes him up inside and he gets really stinky, mucous-y stool. I would have to think the same thing would happen from a glandular supplement made with the proteins he's sensitive to. Well, I technically don't know for sure if he would be sensitive to just the kidney which would only be 5% of his diet but I'd rather not risk serving it. Apparently, if you feed a cat a protein that they're allergic to (ex, beef) along with another protein that they're fine with (ex, chicken) then there's a chance that the body will start to have sensitivities to the other protein (in this situation, chicken) over time, which is something I don't want. 

Soooo....I'm placing my large HT order on Wednesday this week and I am going to order the non-ground rabbit organs. That is literally the only way I can get non-liver, non-beef/pork/lamb organs (that I can think of!) It is supposed   to be a mix of 50% liver, 25% kidney and 25% heart but I just have a bad feeling that the kidney will fall short of the scale. Hopefully not... 

I guess I just wanted to see if anyone else uses liver as the only organ. When I look at the ingredients in commercial cat food (canned and raw), they only include liver. No other organs. I know that Dr. P only uses liver so I'm just going t have to trust that using ~8-10% liver is appropriate. I would like to be able to offer him a more comprehensive diet but I just don't know where to get poultry kidneys, testicles, spleen or pancreas.
 

peaches08

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Thanks for the input everyone! 


I did look into the glandular supplements. However, they are all made with organs (kidney, spleen, pancreas, etc) from either beef, pork or lamb. All of which my cat is sensitive to. I think people use those  when they either can't source organ or their cat won't eat it fresh, like @peaches08  mentioned.

My situation is a bit different in that I can get beef kidney (and I will, for my girl Kali) and Malibu would eat it if I served it to him but it messes him up inside and he gets really stinky, mucous-y stool. I would have to think the same thing would happen from a glandular supplement made with the proteins he's sensitive to. Well, I technically don't know for sure if he would be sensitive to just the kidney which would only be 5% of his diet but I'd rather not risk serving it. Apparently, if you feed a cat a protein that they're allergic to (ex, beef) along with another protein that they're fine with (ex, chicken) then there's a chance that the body will start to have sensitivities to the other protein (in this situation, chicken) over time, which is something I don't want. 

Soooo....I'm placing my large HT order on Wednesday this week and I am going to order the non-ground rabbit organs. That is literally the only way I can get non-liver, non-beef/pork/lamb organs (that I can think of!) It is supposed   to be a mix of 50% liver, 25% kidney and 25% heart but I just have a bad feeling that the kidney will fall short of the scale. Hopefully not... 

I guess I just wanted to see if anyone else uses liver as the only organ. When I look at the ingredients in commercial cat food (canned and raw), they only include liver. No other organs. I know that Dr. P only uses liver so I'm just going t have to trust that using ~8-10% liver is appropriate. I would like to be able to offer him a more comprehensive diet but I just don't know where to get poultry kidneys, testicles, spleen or pancreas.
If I understand correctly, you're worried about enough organ variety in the chicken thighs recipe, right?  If so, all I can do is tell you what I did.  The first more than year that I fed raw, it was the stripped down chicken thighs recipe.  No eggs, no glandulars.  Just the thighs, liver, and required supplements.  Since I was fighting diarrhea with my group, I wanted to start bare bones so to speak.  Actually I started with TC Feline and Better In The Raw, then on to Dr. P's recipe.  Over time I added egg yolks because of the yacking up hair balls.  Later I added glandulars in attempts to give "more" complete nutrition to the kitties since I can't source organs easily.  They got plain Cornish hen as less than 15% of their diet.  I started grinding pork and beef and using Dr. P's supplement recipe but added eggshell for calcium.  I used chicken livers for the liver since mine are OK with that.  Then I started grinding Cornish hens and using chicken livers and Dr. P's.  I added glandulars to all of these grinds.  It wasn't until ordering from HT that mine got all the other organs, depending on the grind.  I don't add glandulars to these grinds.

Basically, as far as Dr. P's chicken thighs recipe, I'd leave that recipe alone.  She's fed it for over 10 years with no problems, so it is a good recipe.  Alternate meals with the rabbit as far as getting organs in the diet.  I would be concerned about mixing meats in case he develops new allergies.  But I am no expert in that field!  But I can say that plenty have fed only the 2 meat recipes from Dr P and their kitties are fine.  Mine showed no changes when I started the HT grinds except constipation from them being a little bone heavy.  That passed.
 
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abby2932

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If I understand correctly, you're worried about enough organ variety in the chicken thighs recipe, right?  
Kind of...I'm worried about organ variety in my PMR portion of the cats diet, which is 1/3 of their total diet:
  1. 1/3 of their diet is commercial raw (Rad Cat) 
    • This is completely balanced so I'm not worried about this part
  2. 1/3 of their diet is whole ground animals (with bone) from HT + Alnutrin for Meat/Bone/Organ (and I add krill oil at mealtime)
    • This is also completely balanced so I'm not worried about this part either
  3. The final 1/3 of their diet is Prey Model Raw, which should be 80%Meat, 10%Bone, 5%Liver, 5%Other Secreting Organ
    • This is where I'm concerned about the organ variety....Since I can't give him beef, pork or lamb and I can't find non-liver poultry or rabbit organs (except maybe from the non-ground rabbit organs from HT. We'll see if there is an appropriate amount of kidney in there when my order comes in)
    • Hopefully, there is a decent amount of rabbit kidney in the organ batch from HT and all my worry will be for naught but if it is an insignificant amount, I'm not going to continue to purchase it just for a small amount of kidney (it is expensive)
**I'm just using Dr. P's recipe as a guide I guess. Seeing that she only uses ~8% liver with no other organ in her daily recipe, it is probably OK for me to feed ~8% liver in my PMR portion of the diet. Unless someone tells me differently?? 
 

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If you look at the labels on Rad Cat and any other commercial raw, you'll find that none of them contain non-liver secreting organs.  Here is the chicken recipe for Rad Cat:

Certified organic, free-range chicken thigh and leg meat, certified organic, free-range chicken heart, certified organic free-range chicken liver, filtered water, organic egg yolk, organic powdered eggshell, organic kelp, organic dulse, gelatin, organic psyllium husk powder, wild Alaskan salmon oil

I think it boils down to this:  we simply don't know what the consequences are of not feeding non-liver organs.  I decided to get the glandular supplement because my cats are going to be eating my homemade food for a lifetime, as in 20 years if all goes well.   Mostly likely, though, the consequences are either non-existent or so subtle you'll never know it.  Look at it this way:  the raw diet with just chicken liver is WAY better than canned food.  Might there be something ever so slightly better?  Maybe, but if it's that difficult and expensive it's probably not worth driving yourself nuts about it.

If your cats can tolerate it, you can order some whole animal grinds from HT:  rabbit, pheasant, quail, mice, cavies.  If you feed that in whatever quantity you can afford (as a few of them are breathtakingly expensive) and use standard meat/bone/liver combinations for the rest, you'll be doing fine.  My two love the rabbit and I was thinking of trying the cavies next!
 

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  1. The final 1/3 of their diet is Prey Model Raw, which should be 80%Meat, 10%Bone, 5%Liver, 5%Other Secreting Organ
    • This is where I'm concerned about the organ variety....Since I can't give him beef, pork or lamb and I can't find non-liver poultry or rabbit organs (except maybe from the non-ground rabbit organs from HT. We'll see if there is an appropriate amount of kidney in there when my order comes in)
    • Hopefully, there is a decent amount of rabbit kidney in the organ batch from HT and all my worry will be for naught but if it is an insignificant amount, I'm not going to continue to purchase it just for a small amount of kidney (it is expensive)
I'm wondering what you experienced with the mixed rabbit organs from HT. I ordered this once, and I found only two kidneys in the batch and was really confused by this. I thought perhaps that I wasn't discerning hearts from kidneys properly, and was mistaking kidneys for hearts, or losing them somewhere among all the lung / other tissue, but I do know how to identify a kidney, so I'm quite sure that wasn't the case... I was just trying to rationalize / was so confused about the lack of kidney. Anyway, I'd continue to order this product if it really contained the ratio stated...
 
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abby2932

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cat7bird cat7bird , I would not order the rabbit organs again. I think I found about 8 kidneys but the entire product was different than I imagined. I was expecting literally ONLY liver, heart and kidney but in fact half of the package was tissue, etc. Definitely not what I was looking for...
 

cat7bird

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Looks like you did better on kidneys than I -- but still not substantial enough to order if looking for secreting organs. I wouldn't so much mind the lung tissue attached to the hearts etc if kidney, heart, and liver were all well represented. I definitely didn't having to sort through everything, and not knowing for sure what I had, and in what quantities. I think solo products work much better for me in general than mixed (I found a bunch of hearts in a recent batch of gizzards, and was a little annoyed). Anyway, good to hear about someone else's experience with this. And good luck -- I have a hard enough time sourcing secreting organs, at least with any variety, without dealing with a sensitivity to any protein -- not sure what I'd do if I had to avoid various animal sources...
 

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didn't *like* having to sort through everything...
 
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abby2932

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Thank you! Yes, I will be buying organs separately from now on as well. I do love the duck hearts from HT and the beef liver is MUCH more manageable that I expected it to be.

I'm actually thinking my cat has something else, instead of a protein sensitivity. If i don't include a probiotic in his food, his stools are mucousy and probiotic or not they are incredibly malodorous. I know something is not right because raw fed diet stool should not smell as awful as his do. I was blaming the food (red meat proteins) for a while but I have an appointment on Saturday to get a PCR test done, specifically for Tritrichomonas Foetus.

I'm hoping that they find something, as that would be an easy fix and then I (fingers crossed) wouldn't have to deal with any protein sensitivities!
 

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Good luck -- I hope you find it's something less complicated. I also love those duck hearts!
 
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