Poop problems

Hi TCS,

My 5 year old cat, Sophie, has been having some bowel problems for about 3 weeks.  

It started with her passing gas, which was unusual for her.  She's never been gassy before.

Then I noticed her inner eyelids started showing... which I hear is a sign of infection in the body, I think?

After that she's been having soft stools.  3 times she's pooped on the carpet in the 3 weeks.  The rest of the time she's pooped in her box, and rather regularly.  But I find little turds everywhere, that are about the size of a pinky fingernail.  Her stools are greenish, and have the consistency of modelling clay. 

Other than she is fine... eating, happy, spunky, perhaps a bit subdued at times, but with this cold weather, I don't think it's too unusual.

I took her to the vet whose initial guess is that she may have worms, as she is an outdoor cat.  She gave her a deworming pill.  That was 1.5 weeks ago, and I don't see any real signs of change.  Not worse, thankfully, but not better.  She hasn't gone outside since I took her to the vet. 

I will probably take her back to the vet, but I thought I'd check here first.  Her other guess was IBS, but it happened so quickly and suddenly that it just seems not extremely likely.

Current symptoms - 

Gas is less often, but I have smelled it once in a while recently.

Inner eyelids are still showing.

Poops are regular but still green/modelling clay consistency.  The last two times she pooped on the carpet were probably within the past 24-36 hours.  

Any ideas? Thanks so much!

ETA:

I feed her Satori dry kibble 24/7 and Elegant Medley (Fancy Feast) wet food 2x a day.

I recently bought a couple new bags of Temptations, and just in case there is some correlation, I stopped feeding her those for the past 3 days... 

Bump... Any advice or suggestions?

Tico, when I got my kitten from the shelter two years ago, I noticed her stools were not as solid as they should be.  This presented a problem because the softer poops did not always cleanly drop off and I was always having to catch her after pooping to wipe her butt off so that fecal matter was not being deposited around the house such as on furniture, bedspreads, rugs, etc.  I was alternating both dry and wet cat food for her meals, all grain free.  I started asking around about how to firm up her stools and the only suggestion that worked was to feed her raw chicken patties which she had no problem eating.  The brand was Vital Essentials.  I can honestly tell you that her problem was literally solved overnight.  Not only were her stools well formed, but they were smaller in size.   Apparently with the raw foods, their body really utilizes the protein and as a result there is very little waste to eliminate.  Additionally, this little kitten could really pass gas which I did not perceive as a problem.  However, I noticed the gas passing stopped too with the raw diet. The pet store that recommended this product basically supports a raw diet for cats and dogs over the canned and dry food. 

I kept her on the raw diet for about two months, then weaned her off and back on the canned and dry foods with no further stool problems.  The only reason I did not keep her on the raw diet is because it was not going to be convenient to leave food out if were we were going to be away all day or over night.  The one thing I learned about my kitten once I adopted and received her medical history from the shelter vet is that she had received a lot of different antibiotics and meds after she came into the system and foster care.  She and here siblings were very malnourished, lacked muscle development and were sick.  I think the meds really destroyed the natural micro flora in her gut causing the soft stools and that seems to be exactly what the raw diet restored. 

If you think your cat will eat the raw food, you might want to give it a try for a while.  I know there are other brands of raw foods for cats other than the Vital Essential in case you can't find this brand.  Vital Essentials basically were little frozen "hockey pucks" that I would let thaw in the refrigerator.  They can be warmed a touch in the microwave at low temperature to slightly take the chill off as long as they don't start to cook.  Good luck.

Thank you for your response!  

Your reply jogged a recollection in my mind!

The last time I bought Fancy Feast Elegant Medley - while the cans looked the same, the box had changed, and the price had dropped from $11 to $7!  I've never seen Fancy Feast go on sale EVER in the five years I've been giving it to her.

I wonder if they changed their product at all?   I just found my receipt and I bought that box of canned food on Dec 13!  The timing is coincidental! 

The only reason I give her the Fancy Feast stuff is because its the ONLY thing she'll eat.  I tried all the good quality foods over the first year I had her, and she would have none of it. She just likes the shredded meat and gravy.  

I'm on hold on the phone with Purina to find out if they can tell me anything about this change in packaging.  (Hope this "Please continue to hold... we have high call volume" isn't actually an error and that they're actually closed for New Years...!)

Maybe I'll try something like your suggestion, and hopefully get her to eat it and see if that fixes her symptoms!

Thank you so much!

Tico, were you able to find anything out from Purina? I seem to remember that a few months ago some Cat Site members were writing about cats suddenly rejecting Fancy Feast... I don't remember details but it might be worth searching.

Will Sophie eat more grain-free, real-meat shreds, like the ones in Weruva or Soulistic food? Our cats like those and some of them even have pumpkin, which can help stabilize the pooping. Weruva also makes packets of just pumpkin. I avoid the Weruva foods with potato, though, because one of our cats seems to have a sensitivity to potato. (Gassy!)

If you want to try raw food and can't get Vital Essentials, there are a few commercial raw brands that we feed our cats: Primal (freeze-dried or frozen), Stella & Chewy's (freeze-dried or frozen), and Rad Cat (frozen only). Rad Cat and Stella & Chewy's have simpler ingredient lists, which could be an advantage if there's any possibility you're dealing with a food sensitivity.

Good luck, these problems are no fun!

After 90 minutes on hold with Purina, I'm convinced their offices were closed for New Years and they just didn't say so on the recorded message...  I'll try calling back tomorrow.

That's quite interesting about the other complaints...  Although Sophie has never vomited. The packaging and price changes definitely only were on store shelves the last time I bought wet food, which was on Dec 13.  I wish I could remember when she started getting gassy, and when I first fed her from that box.  They were very close together, within a couple days of each other... but I can't definitely say the new food preceded the change in health...  

I sure hope it's this.  I just want her to get healthy again, and for it to be nothing more serious.... 

I'll definitely try Weruva or Soulistic Food and see how she likes that.  Thanks for the suggestions because it doesn't look like I can get Vital Essentials where I'm located. 

It's amazing how small changes in foods can make a huge difference: I hope that's what happened with Sophie's food!

If you try Weruva, I think their Cats in the Kitchen canned foods are some of their best: they're moderately priced and are lower in carbs than their more expensive foods. They have shreds (I feed our cats the ones with chicken, one also has beef, another also has turkey) and there's a sort of jelly-like sauce. The cats especially like Chicken Frick a Zee. Another good brand of shreds is Tiki Cat, which is more expensive, but there are no fillers, just a broth.

Oh, one other brand that a lot of cats (including picky ones) seem to like is Nutro, the Natural Choice line. Our cats especially love the minced chicken.

So I got through to Purina today. 

They said there have been no changes in the recipe formula for any of the Elegant Medley lines.  What was interesting is that she didn't have any record of a packaging change.  She couldn't explain that. 

She was concerned and wanted to know all the symptoms.

She also said the stores set the pricepoint for the food, when I mentioned that this box was the first time that I've seen anything less than $11 for a box ever, in the five years I've been buying it.  But there has got to be a cause for my grocery store to have dropped the price by almost 60%.  But she's mailing me a refund for the box I purchased, which is nice.

So, it's all still rather a mystery.  

Off to buy better brand and hope that it makes a positive difference!

That's very strange, Tico! That was good of her to send you a refund, though.

I hope you're able to find some food that agrees with Sophie in all ways: that she'll eat it and that it doesn't upset her stomach! Do ask if you need other food ideas. And, again, good luck!

It could be giardia? It says it causes greasy, green, stinky poo. 

http://www.petmd.com/cat/conditions/infectious-parasitic/c_ct_giardiasis

http://www.vcahospitals.com/main/pet-health-information/article/animal-health/giardia-in-cats/119

So this affair is unfortunately not over.  I'm posting here just to get some advice as to what my next step might be.  

Here's the timeline of her health problem in a nutshell:

1. Mid-December: She started having soft, greenish bowel movements.  Very plasticene-like.  Eventually started pooping outside box and so I took her to the vet. I also took her off her regular diet (Fancy Feast Elegant Medleys) and bought some more quality food product recommended at the pet store (Similar to the Natural Wellness brand). 

2. End of December:  Vet tested her stool.  He put her on an antibiotic and forti-flora probiotic.  

The antibiotic made her stool much worse - much more runny and now she is pooping exclusively outside of her box.  I used very little of the forti-flora probiotic, as she didn't eat her food with it.

For a while, I wondered if the change in the look of the packaging in her regular food - Fancy Feast Elegant Medleys was perhaps the cause of the problem (see above).  Perhaps there was a change in ingredients, and I had just bought a new box. However, I realized, while the bowel problem and the purchase of new box were very close together, my receipt shows that the food was purchased a few days AFTER her symptoms started. So close, but no cigar. 

3. Mid-January:  Test on stool sample came back perfectly fine.  Vet still feels like it's a food allergy issue more than anything else.  Doesn't want to put me under a financial burden with running more tests, if it can be fixed by diet.

He put her on Z/D ultra wet food and Z/D dry food. Says it can take 3-4 weeks to see an improvement.

4. End of February:  Her stool is more solid than when she was on the antibiotic (which I guess is to be expected), but still on the soft side.  She is still pooping 95% of the time outside the box.  Bleh.

I just was browsing in one of those "Natural Health" type pet food store, and ended up talking to the owner.  She had a couple of comments, but no real suggestions:  

                      - She is against the Fort-flora product because it contains animal digest in it
                      - She thinks the "scientific" concoction in the Z/D ultra diet is very "engineered" and not the greatest choice. 

                      - She says that improvement should be seen in 48-72 hours, not 3-4 weeks, if the food is going to work. (This kind of makes sense)

                      - She says it's less likely to be a food allergy as allergies don't usually just "pop up" after 5 years, but that she ate something that was sick and that whatever made the animal sick is now in her                             system.

                      - She recommended a cat-specific goats milk product that is full of natural probiotics.

                      - She thinks that vets are poor at diet expertise - they just know what they were taught in university and aren't as aware as those involved studying in pet nutrition... (can't remember how she                                 worded it now..)

So now I'm not quite sure what to do.  Do I take her back to the vet for more testing?  Do I assume the Z/D diet isn't working and try the goats milk and something else on my own?  The pet-store owner made it seem like my vet wasn't making really good decisions when it came to her diet, so now I don't know if I should do my own thing.  But I'm starting to think that it isn't a food allergy, but that she ate something that has affected her system. 

I do agree with the Pet Store owner, that 3-4 weeks seems like a LONG time to see if diet is fixing a food allergy problem.  Even so, it has been that long now, and there is no difference.  

Just not sure what to do now. Any ideas. 

I'm sorry to hear about your kitty's issues.

First, exactly what fecal tests were done? What did they test for? Were they done at your vet clinic or sent to an outside lab?

As for the z/d diet...
I know there are atleast a few members on here that have benefitted from this diet, I am not one of them. When my Max (now 3 1/2) was 6 mo old, he did abruptly develop food allergies (beef and rabbit.) My now 16 1/2 yr old developed "sudden" allergies at the age of 13 (grain/gluten, pork, carrageenan, agar-agar.)

At a dermatologist's suggestion, I put Max on a hypoallergenic diet. The vet wanted him on the diet for a full 12 mo to rule out environmental issues. (I've learned A LOT more in this department since.)

Max was first put on Purina's HA. After about 6-8 wks on this diet, he and other cats eating the food developed diarrhea. Sent out fecal panels, all came back negative. Long story short, we also tried Royal Canin and Hill's z/d. After 8-ish weeks or so on different brand, diarrhea would start. As a result, the decision was made to do food trials...single protein, single carb source. I settled on Nature's Variety. They've done very well on this ever since.

I've used the Answers goats milk before in cats. But, never as the sole source of a probiotic. I typically use Culturelle.

I am unfamiliar with the dry food you were previously feeding; but, I would suggest going completely grain-free (dry and canned...or canned only.)

I would highly suspect either your kitty picked up something or ate thing while outside. Does she still have outdoor access? If so, could you possibly keep her indoors only for 2 weeks to completely monitor what she is eating?

I'm sorry to hear about your kitty's issues.

First, exactly what fecal tests were done? What did they test for? Were they done at your vet clinic or sent to an outside lab?

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He read me the report but didn't give me a copy of it (nor did I think to ask for it...). But it was sent to an outside lab (pretty sure) and it listed like 30 things that it tested for. So it was a pretty thorough test.  The vet was actually quite surprised, as he felt sure that would reveal the source of the issue, because it tested for so many things. 

As for the z/d diet...
I know there are atleast a few members on here that have benefitted from this diet, I am not one of them. When my Max (now 3 1/2) was 6 mo old, he did abruptly develop food allergies (beef and rabbit.) My now 16 1/2 yr old developed "sudden" allergies at the age of 13 (grain/gluten, pork, carrageenan, agar-agar.)

At a dermatologist's suggestion, I put Max on a hypoallergenic diet. The vet wanted him on the diet for a full 12 mo to rule out environmental issues. (I've learned A LOT more in this department since.)

Max was first put on Purina's HA. After about 6-8 wks on this diet, he and other cats eating the food developed diarrhea. Sent out fecal panels, all came back negative. Long story short, we also tried Royal Canin and Hill's z/d. After 8-ish weeks or so on different brand, diarrhea would start. As a result, the decision was made to do food trials...single protein, single carb source. I settled on Nature's Variety. They've done very well on this ever since.

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Yes, clearly the Z/D diet is not working for me either. But... according to your kitties.. you CAN develop an allergy out of the blue.  Humm.  Sorry to hear of all the trouble you had to go through.  Should I try Nature's Variety?

I've used the Answers goats milk before in cats. But, never as the sole source of a probiotic. I typically use Culturelle.

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This product that she recommended is called Primal Pet Foods Raw Goat Milk. 

I am unfamiliar with the dry food you were previously feeding; but, I would suggest going completely grain-free (dry and canned...or canned only.)

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How do you know if something is grain-free?  She really likes the Z/D dry food, although she has little admiration for their wet stuff. 
 

I would highly suspect either your kitty picked up something or ate thing while outside. Does she still have outdoor access? If so, could you possibly keep her indoors only for 2 weeks to completely monitor what she is eating?

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I kept her indoors for a full month after the initial vet visit.  So I've fully monitored her diet for at least 4-6 weeks.  Now I let her back out every once in a while, but she usually doesn't go out for long periods (10-15 min close by).

And I know this is a really vague question, but...... if she picked something up, as you (and I) suspect, would diet alone fix it?  Or would she need to have a different medicine/treatment?

I'm just trying to decide - do I go back to the vet NOW as my next step?  Or do I do my own thing - some kind of grain-free, probiotic-rich diet first?

Nature's Variety Instinct (canned food) and refrigerated acidophilus from Wholefoods worked for my cats. 

Hill's z/d doesn't have very good ingredients. We went to a new vet and she told us that z/d doesn't have real food in it. It's too high in carbs and it also has cellulose. 

Tico said:

 
Yes, clearly the Z/D diet is not working for me either. But... according to your kitties.. you CAN develop an allergy out of the blue.  Humm.  Sorry to hear of all the trouble you had to go through.  Should I try Nature's Variety?

How do you know if something is grain-free?  She really likes the Z/D dry food, although she has little admiration for their wet stuff. 
 

I'm just trying to decide - do I go back to the vet NOW as my next step?  Or do I do my own thing - some kind of grain-free, probiotic-rich diet first?

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I don't have experience with this exact sort of problem -- particularly the thought of a cat picking something up and getting sick from it -- but do remember reading that other Cat Site members said their cats had developed allergies fairly suddenly.

As for the foods, yes, Nature's Variety is pretty good food -- our cats never quite took to it but a lot of members feed it and have seen big improvements in their cats' health, particularly digestive issues.

Grain-free foods don't have ingredients like wheat, corn, rice, oats, barley, or any other similar grains. You also don't want any wheat or corn derivatives, like wheat gluten or corn gluten. Beyond avoiding grains, I avoid potato because one of our cats seems to be sensitive to it. For cats, potato is really just empty calorie carbs -- and a cheap filler -- anyway. Other things I avoid are carrageenan and peas.

As for your question about what to do, well, on a personal note, when our previous cat was very sick, we did both things you are considering as options: kept going to the vet and changed the cat's diet without following the vet's dietary advice. I did a lot of Internet research and found very helpful ideas and information on vet-written sites like Catinfo.org and littlebigcat.com. I also talked a lot with helpful people in pet food stores, like you did. One woman went through her whole store with me and told me about ingredients, her experiences feeding her cat, and telling me more about cat nutrition. It was incredibly helpful for that cat and for the cats we have now: I feed our new cats using her feeding model that combines canned and raw foods. In your case, it sounds like z/d, which is loaded with brewers rice, isn't making Sophie as healthy as she should be so you'll probably need to look for new foods anyway. It also might be worth seeing another vet for a second opinion, particularly if your current vet isn't a cat specialist and you can find a cat specialist. We take our new cats to a cat-only vet and it's like a whole different world.

Good luck, Tico! I know how hard these problems can be to handle!

I may be a good idea to ask the pet store owner and employees if they know any good vet in your area. 

ankitty said:

 
Nature's Variety Instinct (canned food) and refrigerated acidophilus from Wholefoods worked for my cats. 

Hill's z/d doesn't have very good ingredients. We went to a new vet and she told us that z/d doesn't have real food in it. It's too high in carbs and it also has cellulose. 

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Interesting.  Why do the vet clinics sell and promote it then? You would think the best quality products would be there! :O

LisaHE said:

 
I don't have experience with this exact sort of problem -- particularly the thought of a cat picking something up and getting sick from it -- but do remember reading that other Cat Site members said their cats had developed allergies fairly suddenly.

As for the foods, yes, Nature's Variety is pretty good food -- our cats never quite took to it but a lot of members feed it and have seen big improvements in their cats' health, particularly digestive issues.

Grain-free foods don't have ingredients like wheat, corn, rice, oats, barley, or any other similar grains. You also don't want any wheat or corn derivatives, like wheat gluten or corn gluten. Beyond avoiding grains, I avoid potato because one of our cats seems to be sensitive to it. For cats, potato is really just empty calorie carbs -- and a cheap filler -- anyway. Other things I avoid are carrageenan and peas.

As for your question about what to do, well, on a personal note, when our previous cat was very sick, we did both things you are considering as options: kept going to the vet and changed the cat's diet without following the vet's dietary advice. I did a lot of Internet research and found very helpful ideas and information on vet-written sites like Catinfo.org and littlebigcat.com. I also talked a lot with helpful people in pet food stores, like you did. One woman went through her whole store with me and told me about ingredients, her experiences feeding her cat, and telling me more about cat nutrition. It was incredibly helpful for that cat and for the cats we have now: I feed our new cats using her feeding model that combines canned and raw foods. In your case, it sounds like z/d, which is loaded with brewers rice, isn't making Sophie as healthy as she should be so you'll probably need to look for new foods anyway. It also might be worth seeing another vet for a second opinion, particularly if your current vet isn't a cat specialist and you can find a cat specialist. We take our new cats to a cat-only vet and it's like a whole different world.

Good luck, Tico! I know how hard these problems can be to handle!

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ankitty said:

 
I may be a good idea to ask the pet store owner and employees if they know any good vet in your area. 

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Thank you both for your help!!!  So appreciative! 

So here's my plan. I'm going to pick up Nature's Variety canned food and perhaps a grain-free dry food as the Z/D Dry Food has rice as the first ingredient (any suggestions?).

I also discovered I have a cat-only vet clinic/hospital in my own neighbourhood!  I think I'll wait a week and then try there for a second opinion.   (I'll also peek in this week and see what kind of food they are selling on their shelves! hehehe) 

Tico said:

 
Interesting.  Why do the vet clinics sell and promote it then? You would think the best quality products would be there! :O

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I'm sure prescription diets are helpful if used correctly, but I think some vets sell them more than necessary, because they give them good and stable profits. With z/d, if prescribed before ruling out other culprits (carrageenan, high carbs, etc.), it's useless. Our new vet doesn't sell prescription diets. 

To add to what others suggested, my cat had a problem with loose stool and scooting. I put him on 3 months of Culturelle kids stirred right into his food and it helped to firm everything up. Sometimes kitties' stomachs just get out of whack and I've found the probiotic helpful to get everything back on track.