Vet says raw is bad

leann baker · Dec 8, 2014

Our five-year old kitty, Monkee, has been at the vet with gastroenteritis since Saturday morning. The vet says that it is caused by her raw diet. Can this be possible? I have two other kitties who have been eating the exact same diet for almost 14 years and they are healthy! I am very careful about preparation and I pick up their plates within 15 minutes of putting them down. My husband gives Monkee "treats" of Fancy Feast appetizers and whipped cream, which I do not believe in but she is a daddy's girl. On Wednesday, Monkee caught a bird, then my husband gave her FF for dinner. That was when she threw up. She seemed fine on Thursday, eating only her raw food. Then on Friday, my husband gave her FF for lunch. She refused her dinner and threw up the FF again. We took her to the vet first thing Saturday morning, and I was scolded (for the umpteenth time) for feeding the raw diet. The vet says that she will give me documented proof of the dangers of the raw diet when we pick her up to bring her home this morning. I am so confused right now.

jcat · Dec 8, 2014

It's hard to say, though it would surprise me if she's never had trouble on a raw diet before. Were any tests run? Did the vet know she caught a bird?

Our cat had an EHEC (enterohemorrhagic Escherichia coli) infection when we got him, presumably from eating/being fed something raw (it could have been meat, raw milk or vegetables; according to his old vet, Mogli's former owner fed raw). He also has IBD, diagnosed by biopsy, and went through diet trials with the help of a pet nutritionist. It was determined (by examination/analysis of his stool) that raw food went through him virtually undigested, so obviously some cats simply can't tolerate it.

ankitty · Dec 8, 2014

It could also be the bird or FF.

silverpersian · Dec 8, 2014

Could you please share whatever documentation the vet gives you on the dangers of raw diets? I feed raw, but am open to learning other perspectives.

joleca · Dec 8, 2014

Maybe time to find a new vet??? My 3 kittens will be 9 months old this Saturday, they've been raw since they were 9 weeks old and came home with me.. My vet's only concern was that I feed them a "complete" diet.. (not just isolated raw proteins).. In basically 7 months, Ian (the biggest & only boy) has gone from 2.8 lbs to 9.5 lbs. Mia from 2.4 lbs to 8.7 lbs and Darby (the runt of the litter and always the smallest) from 2 lbs even to 7.12 lbs. All 3 are healthy, active, have beautiful glossy, silky coats and more energy than you could imagine.

And not my first experience with feeding raw.. I lost my "baby girl" Amber at the end of April. She was 23 years old (her birthday was April 10th and I lost her April 29th).. She was grain free for about 12 years and raw for about the last 2.. And other than "senior" stuff (achy joints just like me.. and she became deaf a few years ago), she was still fine.. I'm in a townhouse with 6 levels and she could actually still beat me up and down the stairs.. She waited for me to get up for work, butted me, purred and closed her eyes in my arms... She waited to say goodbye Mommy and that was all... No pain, no ailments, just her time.

So, I'd keep feeding raw, get hubby to stop feeding the FF (unless its the original pate versions, at least they're grain-free). and find a vet who really understands what kittys are meant to eat.

ritz · Dec 8, 2014

I agree with Joleca: time to find at least a more open minded vet. I think the bird or fancy feast is the culprit.
(And if/when your current vet shows you documentation, check to see who wrote/published/funded the documentation/study. Could be Purina, Hills, etc.)

p3 and the king · Dec 8, 2014

I think it's ill advise to tell her that her vet is wrong. Vets have gone through a lot of schooling to get to where they are. I am not saying people on here do not know what they are talking about... However when a vet advises someone that raw is bad, it may not be because of what you think. And saying things like "Vets are not nutrition specialists" is very unhelpful... As if any of us can claim to be?

The official reason most vets will say raw is bad is NOT because they do not agree it's a cats natural way of eating. Because they do. But, a lot of people do it wrong, which can be doing more harm than good. And causing a lot of problems much worse than the cooked or processed diet they had before. They may leave it out too long or the big one is they OVERSUPPLEMENT or UNDERSUPPLEMENT. They take advice from online sites or pages that may have no idea what they are doing. It is best to talk to your vet about the correct way to start a raw diet before doing so. And also to slowly progress so that your kitty doesn't reject it. It will be foreign to your kitty and some reject it at first. Always take the advice of a professional you know before any website is my advice. And find out why. Asks lots of questions. Don't just take "Raw is bad" and run with it. Ask what is meant by that and the best way to go about raw diets.

catpack · Dec 8, 2014

I just wanted to mention that we had to forgo FF Classics about 5 months ago. The cats had been eating as part of a rotation and it started to cause vomiting every time they ate it. I've fed the Appetizers before, but noticed in June that when I offered the Tongal Tuna to the boys for their bday, they turned their noses up at it (they use to LOVE the stuff!)

My mom and a few of our adopters still feed FF Appetizers to their cats and they haven't had problems.

LTS3 · Dec 8, 2014

CatPack said:
My mom and a few of our adopters still feed FF Appetizers to their cats and they haven't had problems.

The FF Appetizers are only supplemental food, not complete diets. In a pinch they can be fed but they should not be fed long term. The FF Broths are also supplemental foods.

catpack · Dec 8, 2014

Yes, the appetizers are not the main diet. Just fed as a treat. Just noting that I know several people feeding the appetizers that haven't had issues. On the other hand, I know several people that have recently (within the last 4-5 months) that had issues with the FF Classics.

Freedom · Dec 8, 2014

I just looked at several respectable sites discussing feline gastroenteritis. NOT ONE mentioned a raw diet as a possible cause. The list of things is long, and if your kitty goes outdoors she could have encountered any number of them. The most obvious are viral, bacterial or parasitic infections. That last one means the cat could need a dewormer.

More interesting to me was the statement that many cats will vomit once every few weeks. And that tied in with your description of this happening when she ate the Fancy Feast. Once she is home, do not use the Fancy Feast for a week (at least). Give her tummy time to settle.

Even the whipped cream could cause this, I think. Cats are 'lactose intolerant' and can't digest anything lactose based. I couldn't tell from what you wrote if it was 'real' cream whipped cream, or Cool Whip / fake stuff.

furmonster mom · Dec 8, 2014

P3 and The King said:
I think it's ill advise to tell her that her vet is wrong. Vets have gone through a lot of schooling to get to where they are. .... And saying things like "Vets are not nutrition specialists" is very unhelpful... As if any of us can claim to be?

First of all, most veterinary education is focused on diagnosis, medication, and basic surgeries; this does take a lot of schooling, I'll agree.

HOWEVER, when it comes to nutrition, most veterinary schools include only a bare minimum in their curriculum. The materials used in the few nutrition classes are most often provided by big pet food companies (Hills, Purina, Royal Canin, etc.,.) and taught by their representatives. Make no mistake, these companies have a vested financial interest in teaching vets to recommend their foods to the paying customer.

There is a great divide between "physicians" and "nutritionists", and Big Pharma and the Pet Food Industrialists like it that way.

So, no, most veterinarians are not nutritionists; they are simply regurgitating the information that the PFI has provided them with.

And that information is usually biased and incomplete; because, unless someone is under oath, they are not required to tell anyone the truth, the WHOLE truth, and nothing but the truth. Big Pharma and the PFI can and do cherry pick stats and points from various studies that will support their own agenda... and their agenda is making money. They will even go so far as to bury studies that do not support their products; after all, nobody is actually required to publish (*wink-wink, nudge-nudge*).

P3 and The King said:
The official reason most vets will say raw is bad is NOT because they do not agree it's a cats natural way of eating. Because they do. But, a lot of people do it wrong, which can be doing more harm than good. And causing a lot of problems much worse than the cooked or processed diet they had before. They may leave it out too long or the big one is they OVERSUPPLEMENT or UNDERSUPPLEMENT. They take advice from online sites or pages that may have no idea what they are doing.

I would just like to point out this bit from the OP...

LeAnn Baker said:
I have two other kitties who have been eating the exact same diet for almost 14 years and they are healthy! I am very careful about preparation and I pick up their plates within 15 minutes of putting them down.

Looks to me like the OP is an experienced raw feeder. I don't think the so called "official reason" for objection holds here.

In reality, the official reason that vets are taking a harder line against raw feeders is because of the new rules the AVMA passed a couple years ago, stating that member vets should actively discourage raw feeding.

P3 and The King said:
It is best to talk to your vet about the correct way to start a raw diet before doing so. And also to slowly progress so that your kitty doesn't reject it. It will be foreign to your kitty and some reject it at first. Always take the advice of a professional you know before any website is my advice. And find out why. Asks lots of questions. Don't just take "Raw is bad" and run with it. Ask what is meant by that and the best way to go about raw diets.

ONLY IF the veterinarian has actually taken the extra course work in nutritional studies focusing on the biology and physiology of the animals in question... preferably by an establishment that is independent of the Pet Food Industrialists... good luck with that.

I agree with the other posters here: OP should find a more open-minded vet. Or, just stick to her guns, take his advise on diagnosis and medicine, and disregard his comments regarding nutrition and raw feeding. He is obviously heavily indoctrinated on that subject.

zoneout · Dec 9, 2014

Whip cream wouldn't cause gastroenteritis. No way. If it hasn't given her diahrea then she probably is not lactose intolerant. While I would question the desireabity of the sugar content and opt for something healthier like sour cream it wasn't the cause of her illness.

peaches08 · Dec 9, 2014

zoneout said:
Whip cream wouldn't cause gastroenteritis. No way. If it hasn't given her diahrea then she probably is not lactose intolerant. While I would question the desireabity of the sugar content and opt for something healthier like sour cream it wasn't the cause of her illness.

Actually, the whipped cream was my first thought about what could be wrong. Not because of dairy, but because of other ingredients. Some cats are sensitive to xantham and guar gum (found in Cool Whip) and some are sensitive to carrageenan in Reddi-Wip. Or other ingredients found in either one, I just picked the most obvious ones. It can be hard to tell sometimes which ingredient is bothering a kitty. But the first thing I'd do is go back to the basics and stop the treats that kitty can't find in the wild (other than cooked meats/organs).

p3 and the king · Dec 9, 2014

Furmonster Mom said:
First of all, most veterinary education is focused on diagnosis, medication, and basic surgeries; this does take a lot of schooling, I'll agree.

HOWEVER, when it comes to nutrition, most veterinary schools include only a bare minimum in their curriculum. The materials used in the few nutrition classes are most often provided by big pet food companies (Hills, Purina, Royal Canin, etc.,.) and taught by their representatives. Make no mistake, these companies have a vested financial interest in teaching vets to recommend their foods to the paying customer.

There is a great divide between "physicians" and "nutritionists", and Big Pharma and the Pet Food Industrialists like it that way.

So, no, most veterinarians are not nutritionists; they are simply regurgitating the information that the PFI has provided them with.

And that information is usually biased and incomplete; because, unless someone is under oath, they are not required to tell anyone the truth, the WHOLE truth, and nothing but the truth. Big Pharma and the PFI can and do cherry pick stats and points from various studies that will support their own agenda... and their agenda is making money. They will even go so far as to bury studies that do not support their products; after all, nobody is actually required to publish (*wink-wink, nudge-nudge*).

I would just like to point out this bit from the OP...

Looks to me like the OP is an experienced raw feeder. I don't think the so called "official reason" for objection holds here.

In reality, the official reason that vets are taking a harder line against raw feeders is because of the new rules the AVMA passed a couple years ago, stating that member vets should actively discourage raw feeding.

ONLY IF the veterinarian has actually taken the extra course work in nutritional studies focusing on the biology and physiology of the animals in question... preferably by an establishment that is independent of the Pet Food Industrialists... good luck with that.

I agree with the other posters here: OP should find a more open-minded vet. Or, just stick to her guns, take his advise on diagnosis and medicine, and disregard his comments regarding nutrition and raw feeding. He is obviously heavily indoctrinated on that subject.

I think YOU may have missed MY original point... It is to point out what people do wrong most of the time that make vets not agree with the way they feed raw. These ARE the main reasons. People do not talk to their vets or asks questions often enough. They only hear "Raw is bad" they don't hear "raw is bad the way you are doing so." They do not ask questions often enough. Most of them just go "OK" and leave it at that and then go online and say "My vet says raw is bad." Then they get all kinds of flack saying their vet is an idiot and they shouldn't listen to them from (most of the time) people who do not know their pets circumstances, medical history, or what really is transpiring. These people say "switch vets" and "vets are not nutrition experts" and they LISTEN to these people and often make their pets health worse. They ask questions of strangers online rather than a medical professional who knows their pets health and circumstances. Does this seem intelligent? I think not. You may be a nutrition expert. I don't know? Who does? But most are NOT. They are just strangers online and they don't have credentials to back it up. That was my point. Not that her particular circumstance is not good for raw. I don't know? I was pointing out that she needs to ask these questions to her vet rather than to strangers and to all with similar issues to do the same. Not just say "OK" and get online and ask strangers you don't know and that don't know your pet.

mschauer · Dec 9, 2014

LeAnn Baker said:
Our five-year old kitty, Monkee, has been at the vet with gastroenteritis since Saturday morning. The vet says that it is caused by her raw diet. Can this be possible?

I'm sure it is possible but I don't see how your vet could claim to know it was caused by, presumably bacteria contamination in, raw feeding. But, just because your other cats didn't also develop gastroenteritis even though they ate the same food doesn't necessarily mean the food isn't at fault. The immune systems of the other cats might just have been better able to handle the possible contamination.

I doubt there is any way to know for sure what caused it.

Do you use probiotics? I didn't use to but have started to since one of my cats developed bacteria overgrowth.

furmonster mom · Dec 9, 2014

P3 and The King said:
I think YOU may have missed MY original point...

No, I did not miss your points.

I'm saying your points are not relevant to the OP. She is a 14 year raw feeding veteran.

Most veterinarians have very little real knowledge about how to feed a raw food diet, because their nutritional education comes from the big pet food companies which have a bias and agenda. Telling people to consult with such a veterinarian on how to feed raw is just as harmful as jumping into it without doing any research at all.

There are a few brave vets who have gone the extra mile and studied species appropriate diets. They are usually vets who have taken the holistic path of medicine. OP should find such a vet to consult with for nutritional concerns, as her current vet is obviously of the more conventional variety who would rather have her feeding kibble.

p3 and the king · Dec 9, 2014

Furmonster Mom said:
No, I did not miss your points.

I'm saying your points are not relevant to the OP. She is a 14 year raw feeding veteran.

Most veterinarians have very little real knowledge about how to feed a raw food diet, because their nutritional education comes from the big pet food companies which have a bias and agenda. Telling people to consult with such a veterinarian on how to feed raw is just as harmful as jumping into it without doing any research at all.

There are a few brave vets who have gone the extra mile and studied species appropriate diets. They are usually vets who have taken the holistic path of medicine. OP should find such a vet to consult with for nutritional concerns, as her current vet is obviously of the more conventional variety who would rather have her feeding kibble.

How is it not relevant? To the OP or others? That is YOUR opinion, the poster and others may believe otherwise. It may help her a great deal. Enough said. Please don't tell people their info is not relevant, if you didn't post it, then how can you know? Good day.

Well, that is the thing, vets KNOW the pets medical history, needs and supplement balances BETTER than anyone else. So it would make sense to consult with them or another professional IN PERSON first. Before taking the advice of a web site. There is a lot of BAD information out there. That was my point. Again, you were putting words into my posts that were not there. Yes, consult a holistic vet if you must, for a second opinion but they will want to see your pets records, as well. This is how they figure the best diet and supplements for that particular pet.

furmonster mom · Dec 9, 2014

Originally Posted by P3 and The King

Well, that is the thing, vets KNOW the pets medical history, needs and supplement balances BETTER than anyone else. So it would make sense to consult with them or another professional IN PERSON first. Before taking the advice of a web site. There is a lot of BAD information out there. That was my point. Again, you were putting words into my posts that were not there. Yes, consult a holistic vet if you must, for a second opinion but they will want to see your pets records, as well. This is how they figure the best diet and supplements for that particular pet.

This is a fallacious assumption.

Considering that most vets are not nutritional specialists, and considering that they probably see hundreds of animals each month, it is not safe to assume that they are paying attention to dietary or supplemental needs. Medications, yes; Nutrition, no.

I submit my own experience as example.

I have a conventional vet that I have been going to for 11 years, ever since our momma kitty gave birth to kittens (two of which we kept). She certainly has several years worth of medical records for all our pets. When we visit, she has to refer to those records constantly, in spite of our long relationship. She most definitely does not know my pets better than I, being the one who lives with them.

Notice I said medical records; as in, surgeries, diagnosis, blood tests, medications, etc.,.

The only note she has on nutrition is that we feed raw. She does not tell me how to feed raw. She does not tell me how to supplement raw. She sees that my animals are healthy, without many of the illnesses that plague other animals, and she leaves me be. If she ever tried to lecture me on how to feed raw, after seven and a half years of doing so, I would go shopping for a new vet.

P3 and The King said:
How is it not relevant? To the OP or others? That is YOUR opinion, the poster and others may believe otherwise. It may help her a great deal. Enough said. Please don't tell people their info is not relevant, if you didn't post it, then how can you know? Good day.

Very well, it is my opinion that your points are irrelevant because the original poster is a 14 year raw feeding veteran and has two other perfectly healthy cats on the diet. Therefore, it is highly unlikely that she is "doing it wrong" (which has been your sticking point all along).

Also, given that the vet has berated the OP in the past for feeding raw (which she is not likely to be doing wrong), and the vet has ignored the variables (treats and bird catch), it seems obvious that the vet is biased to the point of blindness. Therefore, it seems reasonable to advise the OP to seek out a more open-minded vet.

I'm sorry if this logic escapes you.

Good day to you too, my dear.

peaches08 · Dec 9, 2014

Furmonster Mom said:
No, I did not miss your points.

I'm saying your points are not relevant to the OP. She is a 14 year raw feeding veteran.

Most veterinarians have very little real knowledge about how to feed a raw food diet, because their nutritional education comes from the big pet food companies which have a bias and agenda. Telling people to consult with such a veterinarian on how to feed raw is just as harmful as jumping into it without doing any research at all.

There are a few brave vets who have gone the extra mile and studied species appropriate diets. They are usually vets who have taken the holistic path of medicine. OP should find such a vet to consult with for nutritional concerns, as her current vet is obviously of the more conventional variety who would rather have her feeding kibble.

Really good points. My vet, who I respect as a vet, asks me about how to feed raw. I directed him to Hare Today and Alnutrin for ease of making the food, but also told him about catinfo.org for a veterinarian's "why's" behind raw feeding. He loves how healthy my cats look and feel and is stoked about raw feeding, but doesn't have background in it. I applaud the man for asking a layperson how they got started when the results are so apparent. I'm not an authority on raw feeding mind you, but I can say that I've got experience that he doesn't have. I've also told him to seek out this forum, especially the stickies.

I won't go into details since it isn't my story to share, but there has been a case of going to a holistic vet who advocates raw and the recipe given was either misunderstood by the recipient or the vet...it wasn't a recipe that I would feed my cats long term. Not that this vet was a bad vet, but I just didn't feel comfortable with the recipe given. Thank goodness we have people here like mschauer, LDG, and many others that share their experience with us on raw feeding. My cats get a more rounded diet because of the more experienced raw feeders here. If I had not found TCS, my cats would be OK, but I like the more rounded diet they get now. So do they.

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