Musings on Raw

I hope this post doesn't seem to disjointed. I have several things going on and I thought who better to run them by than the raw feeders on TCS.

As you have heard I have 3 cats. I began feeding them commercial raw. recently I bought some food from Hare today and they loved it.My cat Remy is 8 and he is FIV+ and also has FHV. He has been sick for the past 5 or 6 weeks. My vet does not want me to feed him raw and hopes I will switch back to commercial food using HPP. I thought that perhaps I could use Dr. Pierson's recipe for Chicken and Turkey and supplement with some Primal complete diets. I feel that commercial food does not use top of the line ingredients but is still better than canned. I do not want to buy a grinder at this time so the chicken and turkey will have to be boneless to go through the food processor. The Primal does contain bone. Does this sound ok for Remy?

I am still going to order the food from HT. I have been pricing chicken and turkey thighs. Dr. Pierson obviously wrote about making cat food years ago and prices have gone up. The least expensive chicken thighs I can find here are $4.99 a lbs. Strange that at the whole foods here turkey thighs are $3.99 a pound. I thought they would be more expensive than chicken.

 I intend to leave Desmond and Milo on HT raw . I just don't want to do much cooking. I will do it for Remy but think it will be much easier to have the majority of prep be uncooked. Do I sound nuts? Maybe I should cook for all of them.Hmmmm.

By the way, after several weeks keeping an eye on craigslist for freezers I ended up buying one from Home Depot. There just was nothing on CL day after day. I can't wait to get this freezer. It is a 4.3 cubic foot upright. I still have space in my regular freezer for about 12 18 oz. mason jars at a time so combining that with a new freezer I will really be in business. My younger brother wants to pay me to make food for his 2 kittens every week. He really doesn't need to pay me. I am just happy he is starting out right with raw. If he pays for the food that is enough.

My freezer will not be here until Dec. 11th/15th so I am sad that I am missing HT's sale on rabbit this week. I just want to make sure my next order is a very big one to save as much as possible. At least for now I will use Alnutrin for food with bone and Alnutrin for food without bone.

 I just wonder what is right for Remy. Deep down I feel that the way I prepare food is no threat to him. I managed restaurants for many years and am well versed in keeping things safe and clean and not cross contaminating. I am not sure. He is sick now because his FHV is flaring. He just finished his second course of anti-biotic and still feels bad. Taking him back to the vet first thing in the morning.

Thanks for listening

Several members whose cats are FIV+ feed raw. I think if you take the necessary precautions, you'll be okay.
I would give your cats probiotics.
Are they also getting l-lysine?

Yes, they do get probiotics and I put Ly-Lysine powder in the food twice a day.Remy has just lost 1 lbs. He has had no change in appetite. The vet just put him on Famicyclovir ( anti-viral) I am hoping this is his FHV and not a symptom of active FIV. I did switch him back to Primal because of the HPP and will begin using Dr. Piersons recipe. I just found a great buy on chicken thighs and turkey thighs at 50 % off.I think he is sick because the vet convinced me to give him a low dose of prednisolone after is dental surgery a couple months ago. He has been sickish ever since.I dropped the steroids but he is still sick. She does think this is due t the steroids and maybe it is just taking longer for him to clear . He has also had two recent courses of antibiotics. At least his appetite is still strong. There is no way he can smell the food he is so congested. I am surprised he is still eating.

I think you know our Chumley is FIV+. When we moved, the stress caused him a baaaaad URI. He was bubbling out his nose he was so snotty. I doubled his thymus supplement, put him on colostrum AND 1/2 a capsule of Transfer Factor Plus in addition to the lactoferrin 2x a day, and I doubled the lysine (and kept him on the probiotic). It cleared up in three days. I don't know which probiotic you use, but make sure it has L. plantarum in it: that helps fight URIs (and helps prevent them).

I am SO sorry about the pred. I've never heard of pred after a dental, and especially in an FIV kitty. In the future, if an anti-inflammatory is needed, I highly recommend you use 300mg of standardized longvida curcumin - you can add 5mg of peperine if you like, though the longvida curcumin is not supposed to need the peperine to increase bioavailability. This is a VERY powerful anti-inflammatory. It is how I am controlling Flowerbelle's asthma without steroids, and Pawley's "terrible" arthritis is gone (we just had an x-ray done). (With no peperine, though I do rotate brands of curcumin and do not only use the longvida by NOW).

I seriously doubt he's sick because of the raw food. Why does the vet think this? And what are his symptoms?

In your shoes, I'd do what I did. :lol3: I'd keep feeding the raw, but add some immune system support. If he's not already getting lactoferrin, that is the number one supplement used by people with FIV cats, and the one Joel Kehler (author of http://www.fivtherapy.com) recommends as the "if I had to pick just one supplement..." Most use Jarrow brand, 1/2 capsule 2x a day.

If you can afford thymus peptides, you could go that route for the two weeks or month that is recommended. I can't afford them, so I use a thymus glandular. I give it one month on, one month off. During Chum's URI flare, I gave one capsule twice a day instead of once a day. I use Nutricology, and I buy it on amazon.

This page discusses the thymus peptides: http://www.fivtherapy.com/bdmeds.htm#Thymus

This page has discussion of symptomatic vs asymptomatic, various natural treatments, doses used, whys and science, and discussion points on all aspects: http://www.fivtherapy.com/bdltimetherapy.htm

Thank you LDG!- I will take your advice. I do use Jarrow Lactoferrin and I have been giving him Primal Defense Probiotics. It has the Lactobacillus plantarum and S. boulardi.. I am going to take all your recommendations as far as anti-inflammatory.

I hope the Famociclovir the vet prescribed ( anti-viral) works.

Remy was given the Pred after a dental extraction. This was his second extraction and they did not remove his fang teeth ( all the rest are gone) He did feel so much better after those teeth were taken . sadly, his stomatitis flared with  a vengeance a few weeks after surgery. My vet wanted to put him on a low dose for a couple weeks to see if that resolved it.

 I feel guilty because I did not want to give him pred. and I let it happen. Vet ( and I ) want his fang teeth removed ASAP but now of course that is on hold until he is better.

 His symptoms are lethargy, isolating himself( he is very social) his eyes are just pouring and he is a big snot bubble. He has always been snufflely to one degree or another but this is bad. A few weeks back he was running a low grade fever and went through two courses of Clavamox. Fever is gone but he has lost 1 lbs in the last couple of weeks.

 He eats like a horse and that weight loss is worrisome.

 The vet does not think the raw food is making him sick. She knows it was the pred. She feels that if I want to feed raw HPP is safer for Remy due to his FIV. She also feels that is especially true right now while he is sick.

  I do feel that my long history of managing restaurant kitchens has made me a very clean cook. I am fanatically clean when it comes to preparing food for all of my cats. I have read your experience feeding Chumley raw and that encouraged me so much. I have been of the mind that the benefits of raw outweigh any risk.

I will see what I think once Remy is better . I am willing to make Dr. Pierson's recipe and will do that this week. Truly, I would prefer not to cook at all. I believe that in the months I have fed 100% raw Remy was fine and even better than fine. He does not vomit, poops are fine and his coat is glorious. The other two cats have so much energy I will have to start working out to keep up with them. My vet is open to raw but she would prefer Remy be eating canned. She and I respectfully disagree and so she compromised at HPP raw.

My vet freely admits that pet food companies dictate what vet students learn about nutrition. She is very much against dry food for any cat. I have to think very hard about what I feel best doing for Remy. I have been researching raw for over a year, I am pretty compulsive about it .Some nights I am up all night reading.I wish there was a consensus about raw for FIV kitties. I hate second guessing myself.

 My husband tells me that I watch my cats so carefully that I should trust my own instincts about what is right for them.

For now, I will up the supplements I am giving Remy based on your rec.s Thankfully I have Amazon prime so I get free shipping .I am praying that his weight loss does not indicate anything critical.

Oh yes, if he's that snotty and had a fever before (yes, the FIV can make it much tougher to fight these things), absolutely try the 1/2 capsule of Transfer Factor Plus 2x a day; I used ... Synbiotics? Colostrum, the Jarrow lactoferrin, and bump whatever lysine you use to 1,000mg divided into two doses, am and pm.

Chum did nothing but sleep when ge was sick. He did eat though. If need be, get empty gel caps and pill Remy with the stuff. I had to sprinkle powdered freeze drIed salmon on a couple if meals to get Chum to eat, but sardine drizzle ir tuna water might work with smell to penetrate the snotty nose.

If he doesn't eat what he needs a day, I recommend these syringes, they're so easy to use and clean! http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002AT7J8/?tag=&tag=thecatsite

And with his having been so sick, do expect it to take longer than it took Chum to recover. :heart2:

LDG- Thank you again. I am just sitting down to re-read what you have recommended and then I will jump over to Amazon.Remy is taking 1,000 mgs of Lysine. I just can never take him off it. I tried once or twice but his eyes start running right away. He is always congested but not usually quite this bad.My DH said Remy was better this morning ( I was out) he said while Remy didn't want to play he showed  much interest in the play between Desmond and Milo so that is a good thing.

 So far Remy still has the appetite of champions. I tend to feed at the same times everyday and it is funny because all 3 cats have it down pat. They come at precisely the right time from which ever corners of the house they may be in and I will look up and all 3 are sitting around me waiting for food.

 I want to tell you that when I first adopted Remy and then found he was FIV+ this site and all your information about FIV and reading about Chumley helped me. I was able to disregard my previous vets alarm about putting him down or isolating him for life and just resolve to feed him well, be vigilent and love my cat. Thanks LDG!

I don't know if this would be worth the expense, given his eye responds to the lysine. But just double-checking - does it respond completely to the lysine? Lauren's (Feralvr) Perla never responded 100% to lysine. I suggested she add lactoferrin. That helped - but the problem still didn't go completely away. After several years of trying to treat the eye (and with an opthalmologist specialist) she finally got a UR panel run - and found out the problem was mycoplasma (which is treated with doxy). So just something to think about....

No his eyes do not respond completely to the Lysine. It sure helps a lot but not completely. I can't honestly that I have noticed the Lactofferin does anything for him. I just remember that his eyes improved dramatically when I began the Lysine. I will talk to my vet about that test. He has a corneal scar which also matches up to FHV but if it is something else I want to know.Poor Remy , he is a white and gray kitty so when his eyes run badly it looks like they pour blood. I had thought perhaps Uveitis but the vet says no. He blinks so much. When I first met him I thought he was just the friendliest guy in the world but he blinks at inanimate objects!  I have to admit that he has a touch of dementia. He is just the sweetest guy in the world.

Awwwwwww! :heart2: :heart2: :heart2:

@Maureen Bradley, how is Remy?

LDG-Thank you for asking. This morning I had thought about updating this thread. Remy is doing much better as of week before last.Like you, I found I could not afford the Thymus Peptides so I went with the glandular. I had started him back on the Lactoferin and continued him on Lysine. Dr. had prescribed an antiviral.We had a couple bad days which required much sitting time in the bathroom while shower was running. He also needed nasal syringes of saline. Thankfully he is now his social self though, still snuffley. He always has been slightly congested this time was very bad and he was down for about 2 months. I do blame the pred given after extractions. The vet gave the pred because at his re-check his mouth was inflamed. His mouth seems pretty good now.Friday he will see the vet again. I do want a better idea of what his sinus cavity looks like. We are also going to do blood etc.if all vitals are A Ok. My vet has just added a feline surgical/dental suite to her practice and Remy needs those remaining 4 teeth out. I am fortunate in that the vet says she will do it for nothing as a teaching experience for her new employees.Remy had 17 teeth removed two years ago and all but the 4 fang teeth this past Oct. I had wanted all of them out but for some reason the vet was afraid of breaking his jaw in removing the fangs. She has since consulted with a few specialist and they all agree that with his FIV it is best to be aggressive and take everything out. While breaking his jaw is a possibility it is unlikely. It is certain however that he cannot take steroids .

 Thank you so much for your kindness in remembering Remy and for your fantastic information. I have learned so much from you and everyone else at TCS and I am grateful. I hope to read more about how all your cats are doing in your new home.I love reading about your colony . I think both you and Norachan seem to live in cat heaven!

Norachan has a lovely enclosure now. :heart2: THAT is cat heaven. I have to worry about mine disappearing. That is cat nerve-wracking. :lol3:


I'm SO glad to hear he's doing better! Given how bad it was, this seems a real improvement.

I feel so lucky that Chumley found us before he was REALLY a mess. He primarily had GI issues. I suspect that he had been "recently" infected with FIV, so having gotten his GI issues under control, with a healthy diet the herpes virus or whatever else he's got floating around in him didn't take "too" much out of him. :rub:

Chum has lost quite a few teeth - he can't chomp bone any longer. And he does develop gingivitis, so regular dentals are a must. But I've never heard of the fear of the jaw being broken removing the fangs. Chumley has had two removed? No - just one. But sounds like Remy is going to be in good hands. I really hope this helps him be more comfortable!


(As to the inside kitties - they are LOVING it here! They are flying around like kittens. Truly - knock me over with a feather. Each and every one of them adjusted so quickly and they are SO happy! Lots of good romps, and SO much room to play with wand toys now! Chumley and Pawley in particular - they just play, play, play. The turbo track, the mice that squeak, the little rattly mice - they are tossing and pouncing and bunny-kicking. But especially Chumley - being so chunky with his boxy frame - playing like that is - well, it's just hysterical to watch! His markings make him look enormous - but he's really slimming down, and has a serious waist now, and his hips are really defined - but it still seems so out-of-place to see him move so quickly and gracefully. :lol3: )

So happy to hear that Chumley ( and all the cats) are loving their new home.I  have read so much about Chumley that I have a mental picture of him playing. I bet all that space makes the cats feel they have died and gone to heaven! When Remy is feeling especially healthy he loves to run and play. My husband and I just love watching him because he has a way of running that reminds us of a puppy who is still growing into his feet. Because Remy has had so many bad times I get very choked up when he plays like that. My whole family does. It is not an every day event and so it moves us. Poor Remy spent 3 years in rescue before I took him home.  I hate to say it but he was not well cared for. They apparently did not test all their cats because either they didn't know or, chose not to tell me of his health conditions. That doesn't matter to me now as I am so lucky to have him.

I cross my fingers that after he gets the remaining teeth out the Stomatitis will be gone.- I know there are instances of fang removal resulting in broken jaws but I really doubt that will happen. I just hope the vet feels he is up to the surgery. The Pred sure wasn't great for him and has delayed everything. My husband doesn't feel Remy is well enough yet for surgery.

He may be right. There are times when I feel that I am willing Remy to be healthy I just want so badly for him to experience health and happiness for more than a few weeks at a time.