Socializing Mom and Kittens

Friday was such a good day with Abbie that I went to bed thinking "Maybe I'll let her out of the crate tomorrow"...  but when I went into the room Saturday morning, she acted so aggressive that I changed my mind    She was growling and hissing at me before I started doing anything.  And when I placed my hand on the crate door/latch to give her some food, she lunged out.  Later in the evening on Saturday, as well as today, she was sitting outside the cube, all stretched out and just relaxing.  I was talking to her and she even took a few pieces of turkey and tuna from my fingertips.  I went to check her water bowl and she got up, hunched her back, pinned her ears and growled fiercely.  Then she proceeded to retreat to the inside of her cube.  Both times I moved very slowly and continued to talk to her in a soft tone.  Any ideas?

Looking for any advice / suggestions on what to do with Abbie.... or just some explanations on why she's reacting negatively.

Every time I feel as though I'm making steady (but slow) progress with her, she takes 100 steps backwards, and I start to think I'm getting nowhere.  She's reverted back to waiting until I leave (or appear to be leaving) the room before she comes out of her cube to start eating.  And when she is eating with me in the room, she'll look up from her dish, pin her ears back, and growl/hiss at me.  I'm not looking directly at her either and if I do make eye contact, it isn't done intentionally.  When she's not growling or hissing, I'll slowly extend my hand out towards her with bits of turkey, placing the tips of my fingers just inside the crate so she can see and smell the turkey.  She'll cautiously come out of her cube and take the turkey from my fingertips but will then go back into her cube, look at me and give out a few hisses and growls.  I'm not sure there's a direct link, and it could just be a coincidence, but it seems as though she started acting this way soon after she started taking food from my fingertips and even more-so once she started taking the food consistently.

I would really like to let her out of the crate - I hate seeing her confined while Maggie and Pippa can run around the room - but not knowing how she'll react makes me resist the idea.  I don't know how well I can trust her.  I'm fearful she'll attack me and that her negative actions towards me will influence Maggie and Pippa.  That's my biggest concern - undoing the progress I've made with them.  And I don't think she would hurt them in any way, but is that a possibility as well?  I don't want an angry Momma cat going after her kittens and hurting them.  If letting her out into the bedroom turns out to be a bad idea, then I'm faced with trying to trap her again to get her back into the crate.

I don't like the idea of letting her back outside either.  For one thing, it's cold!  I would make myself sick worrying about her.  As I mentioned previously, I'm living in a rental and hope to be moving out within the next few months.  I know if I let her out and we move, there are no other neighbors who would provide food and shelter.  Not only would she be without her babies, she would have no reliable source of food and shelter without me.  I want to give her as much time and patience she needs to overcome her fears of me, but what if she just isn't going to respond?  I'd feel much better letting her out into the bedroom if she would stop growling/hissing/lunging at me.

One other thing...   Pippa is beginning to act as though she's in heat - making strange noises, rolling around on the floor, etc.  I'm positive Maggie is a Maggie but when Pippa is rolling around and making noises, she acts out what a boy cat would do.  Is that normal?

It seems you've made your decision about keeping Abbie inside - good call. So, having made the decision, it is time to put your energies into figuring out how to make that work. I seriously doubt Abbie will attack you. Unless cornered, feral cats choose to hide. I would leave her in the crate for a bit more. I say that because you may have a bigger problem to deal with first - if Pippa is in heat, she and Maggie need to be fixed ASAP. They will only drive themselves and Abbie a little crazy otherwise.

Also, if you are moving soon, having her in the crate will make moving her easier. If she is let out now and just barely starts to adjust to life outside the crate and you move, she may be next to impossible to secure and transport.

Is there a way for you to expand her living space (add another crate and connect it to the current one?). I used to link two double-door crates by zip tying those metal grids to one door on each crate and creating a "hallway" between both crates. In effect, it made an "en suite." One crate was the bathroom and the other was the bedroom. The space made by the doors was extra lounging space. Secure Abbie in the carrier while you work on this. Once the en suite is done, she can come out and explore her newly expanded territory. And I will bet money she'll be grumpy. That seems to be her modus operandi - she'll make the changes begrudgingly but everyone will know she is NOT happy.

If this isn't possible, then just maintain the status quo for now. Let things be with Abbie and get Pippa and Maggie fixed. As annoyed as Abbie is, she is still safer where she is. She may never appreciate it but honestly, unless she's bouncing off the walls of the crate, I'd wager she is fine with things.

BTW - Abbie's crate is a lot bigger than many cats have in shelters, so give yourself a big pat on the back for that.

I Magee with Ondine....Abbie's acting like a feral considering finally tempting the waters you TWO big issues are 1: you're moving & # 2 kittens aren't fixed (moms not either???? Or did I miss that earlier ? ALL need to be fixed -yowling, rolling, begging, scratching, etc, all symbolizing need to be fixed. If MOM's NOT fixed, her aggression might back down after fixing (fingers crossed!!!!!). Her crate is huge - & for a short term like this I think you could get her in when you get the babies in (at or around same time). Whole house might be a lttlle mellower! Abbie might feel a tad less defensive is spayed. And it'll take a lot of the need to sexually procreate for babies -even as tiny as they are. So I'd keep them confined till fixing, but a few weeks after that, start slowly letting them have all 3 run of room. With animal specific "spots" (shoebox with cuddle linings & catnip or turkey smelling suffer mouse for Abbie to curl in & claim"......you get the idea. You're SO close to fixing -& so many good things (less agression #1!!!!) out of out!!! So let us know what happens!!!! Don't forget kittens & cats don't ------discriminate---mom looks as good as sister as Brother looks to sister. Eek! And it truly only takes ONCE!

Keep us posted! You're a great, patient momma

Thank you for the replies

Yes, Ondine, I did decide to keep her inside even though I knew she would be a challenge.  And you're right - she probably wouldn't attack me if I were to let her out into the bedroom, but having her confined to one smaller area so I can work with her puts my mind at ease.  My husband doesn't agree with the way I'm going about it, though.  He feels she's becoming more aggressive the longer I keep her in the crate.  I do keep reminding him that it could be worse for her - outside in the cold, at the shelter in a smaller cage (or worse yet on "death row"), etc.

I did try to expand her living space - I purchased a cat playpen (the one that stands about 50" tall and has three shelves for lounging) but trying to connect the two cages was difficult, given the size of the bedroom and the area I have to work with.  Also, the taller cage was very unstable (even with using zip ties in strategic places to secure it).  Knowing how rambunctious Maggie and Pippa play, including climbing on top of Abbie's crate, I didn't think it was a good idea.  Although I feel bad keeping her in the crate, I realize she is much better off than being outside or at a shelter.  And having her confined will be much easier for transporting when we do finally move (hopefully very soon after the first of the year).  I'm very good at creating and building things, so devising a way to expand her living area will be my weekend project.  I haven't seen (or heard) her bouncing off the walls of the crate, although she does make quite a mess with her litter and cleaning up is always a challenge.  However, when I went in the room this morning, the inside of her crate looked like there was a litter explosion - it was such a mess, more than any other time!  Litter was everywhere - inside and on top of her cube, in her food and water bowl, etc.  So it's quite possible she had an episode of "get me out of here!"

Kittychick - Abbie has been fixed.  She was fixed the morning after I trapped her and she's been in the crate since then (Nov 4).  I caught Maggie and Pippa together in a large carrier a few days before Abbie.  I wasn't able to take them to the spay/neuter clinic the following morning and it was apparent they tried to get out of the carrier during the night.  Against my better judgment, I listened to my husband and let them out into the bedroom.  I'm pretty sure I can entice them back into the carrier but it may take a bit of ingenuity.

Since I'm not able to pick them up and get a closer look, is there any way to know for sure whether or not Maggie is in fact a girl just by looking at her backend?  I mean, I don't see any "jewels" back there but she has longer hair than Pippa so they could be hiding. 

Easieast way is to check their TNR papers - but sounds like you didn't get that far with the babies?

Sorry - writ ing through the flu  - not making for coherent writing  - or great memory. But the lunging will stop (or lessen considerably) when she doesn't have quite the wall area - with a babies - truly onsite every moment) to protect. So the two babies have NOT been fixed yet? if not - she could be reqctivin against that a bit. Getting them there asap is critical, because at 4 months, if opposite sex, you[ll likely have babies all over again!!!!!! Regardless of time of year (they don't care if they're related!). I've had great lock of string up one carrier per cat you need to trap in a room. Clear ss much possible hiding space (under beds, armoire, pils of clothes, behind bookshelves, etc. ---look EVERYWHERE!…then bring 0ut the laser pointer. Have one person sit with a string tied tightly  to the open edge of the carrier door (practice this WITHOUT cats first!!!!) ---and after slowly luring kitten with laser pointer in to waaaaay back of carrier (we also put a little piece of herring or mackerel back there too to lee them occupied so they don't think too much about door swinging shut) - - - , pull quickly the cage door shut. Hold it tightly shut - and Leaping into action, click the latch. THEN take them to the vet/clinc to be fixed.  If you can avoid putting them back where Abbie is while they rehab,that might be best - she may really go into "mamma mode" and that can be pretty intense.

Abbie may slow down once she finally feels safe, that furniture isn't moving,, etc. You even said you're moving soon - so I'm sure subtly she's aware of it. It would be hard to just 0ut her put now - she's definitely back more house cat than feral in  my opinion- but others may feel differently. Sometimes they actually "forget how to hunt"if pulled out of the environment too long. Don't give up on her yet - and give her her space.

Get the other guys in and get them fixed (unless I missed and they have)-----and keep us posted! YOu've got our ears!

Kittychick,  hope you're feeling better soon.  I'm just getting over a very nasty cold so I know the feeling.

Maggie and Pippa have NOT been fixed yet so aside from making Abbie's living space bigger one way or another (without letting her out of the crate), getting them to the clinic as soon as possible is a top priority.  I certainly don't need another set of kittens!  Unfortunately, I don't have another room I could use to let them rehab away from Abbie. 

I need to clarify the "moving out"... we aren't actively packing things and moving furniture around.  I just wanted to point out that we currently live in a rental and we are wanting to find a place of our own sometime after the first of the year.  It will probably take a month or two, possibly a bit longer.  I'm not giving up on Abbie and I have no intention on letting her back outside.

That warmed my heart to hear you don't want to give up on her! 

Your Abbie sounds more feral than my "Momma Kitty" was. I got her kittens in a spare room at 3 weeks and left her uncaged with them to nurse. I got her fixed the day after we trapped her also. The kittens tamed very nicely, we did have friends come over so they were socialized. We left "Momma Kitty" with them until they were 9 weeks old and over their spay/neuter and then released her. She has two older kittens that live outside that waited for her.  I was able to trap them when they were about 5 months old, but they are not that tame. I have 3 of her kittens as my inside cats and my daughter has the fourth.  Even though we got them very young they will react to a loud noise or sudden movement otherwise they are perfect cuddle bugs. I would clean and sterilize the room they were in every couple days, I put the babies with mom in a crate and took them to "the man cave" while I cleaned.  I did notice Momma Kitty would make weird chipping noises at the kittens, like come to me now, or don't go near her. It was strange commands she would give the kittens as so they would not loose their instincts. My daughters kitten was the worst hisser, turns out she is the biggest cuddler of them all. They are now a little over a year and a half old. I have an outdoor heated cat house and a feeding station with a heated bowl for Momma Kitty and her older kittens.  They are all ear tipped and stay pretty close to home. We feed at 6 am and 6 pm everyday.  Momma Kitty was never comfortable in the house and her other babies were waiting for her.  They have a very strange hierarchy and Momma Kitty is the protector. Someday maybe when she is older they will all decide that living in the warm house with no cares would be okay with them. 

KittyChick - I just don't have the heart to let Abbie back outside.  After giving her a safe and warm place inside, plenty of food, etc. for over a month, I don't think it would be a fair thing to do.

KittyMomma - yes, she does seem more feral than we originally thought.  She has some very promising moments, though, and I wish those moments would be more permanent.  She flip-flops so often that it keeps me puzzled and guessing "what mood will she be in today?"  I see you live in Michigan - whereabouts?  I also live in Michigan, the Detroit/downriver area (Wayne county).

On another note, I was able to determine that Maggie is in fact a boy and not a girl - YIKES!  So now my top priority has shifted to getting he and Pippa to the spay/neuter clinic as soon as possible.  I called the clinic yesterday to explain my situation and they asked I make an appointment as opposed to just showing up on feral/stray days (appts are not required for ferals/strays).  Due to the holidays, the earliest I could get an appointment is Jan 5th!  Well, I can't wait that long.  My plan is to get them into carriers and bring them on one of the feral/stray days before the clinic is closed for the holidays.  This is going to be quite a challenge.  Not only getting them into carriers and to the clinic at the same time, but also when I bring them back home to recover.  I know it would be best to keep them separated, but I don't have another spare bedroom to use.  Since Abbie is already in a crate, I could get another crate for Pippa and keep her confined.  Should I get a third crate for Max as well, or just let him loose in the bedroom?  As long as the other two are confined, is that a suitable arrangement?

Another crate for Pippa should be enough.  Boys recuperate very quickly, so he should be fine in the room.  Good luck!

@UnbridledSpirit, I live in Mount Pleasant, center of the Mitten! Sounds like you are making good progress. I have been working with my momma kitty for 3 years. I can now pet her, she comes for her treats, rubs my legs. I can not pick her up yet. I kept my kittens, I can sometimes see that feral behavior coming out in them. I am amazed at the things Momma Kitty taught them in a few weeks to help them with survival. They hissed at two weeks when I reached into touch them. They do not like loud noises or strange/moved things in the house, but they are wonderful to us.  Our children are grown so it is just me and my husband. Our house is quite other that Holiday Dinners. They make me smile everyday when I come home from work no matter if I had a stressful day. Well worth the sleepless nights, litter cleaning, dish washing, total cleaning of room, and hours letting them climb on me.

KittyMomma1122 said:

 
@UnbridledSpirit, I live in Mount Pleasant, center of the Mitten! Sounds like you are making good progress. I have been working with my momma kitty for 3 years. I can now pet her, she comes for her treats, rubs my legs. I can not pick her up yet. I kept my kittens, I can sometimes see that feral behavior coming out in them. I am amazed at the things Momma Kitty taught them in a few weeks to help them with survival. They hissed at two weeks when I reached into touch them. They do not like loud noises or strange/moved things in the house, but they are wonderful to us.  Our children are grown so it is just me and my husband. Our house is quite other that Holiday Dinners. They make me smile everyday when I come home from work no matter if I had a stressful day. Well worth the sleepless nights, litter cleaning, dish washing, total cleaning of room, and hours letting them climb on me.

Click to expand...

Yes, it will be well worth all the hard work and commitment.  Max (formerly Maggie) and Pippa had another milestone last night - both climbed into my lap for treats!  Max even pawed at my hand as I was trying to get it out of the bag and this afternoon, he started purring when I brought them a small slice of turkey for their afternoon treat, although very low where I could barely hear it.  But he was purring

Abbie even ventured out of her cube to stretch out while I was still in the room during lunch.  She hasn't done that in a very long time.  Slow baby steps, right?

Exactly! Mine "babies" are 18 month now. I find I have to really earn their purrs. One begs to be brushed every morning when I get out of the shower, that is her purr time. One is middle of the night belly rubs. My biggest boy follows me around after breakfast to get his special head rubs.  My oldest cat who someone dumped on our road was never a feral, he purrs constantly. If I call his name he is purring as he is prancing to me. A purr is a big step.  It took me months to get a purr!!!!!! I wondered for awhile if they even did purr.

Ondine said:

 
Another crate for Pippa should be enough.  Boys recuperate very quickly, so he should be fine in the room.  Good luck!

Click to expand...

Thanks @Ondine!  I need all the luck I can get

@Ondine, @kittychick  and anyone else who would like to chime in...

Here's an update on Abbie, Max and Pippa....

Max and Pippa:

Both have made a visit to the spay/neuter clinic (*whew*!) earlier this month.  While Pippa was in the crate recovering, I used that time as an opportunity to touch/pet her more than usual (and without using baby food as a bribe).  She wasn't very receptive the first couple of days, but after awhile, she allowed me to scratch under her chin, on her cheeks, around her ears, etc. and she seemed to really enjoy it.  She even fell asleep a couple of times resting her head in my hand and started purring.  Max, on the other hand, wouldn't let me near him (I let him loose in the bedroom since Pippa was separated in the crate).  Even with the usual bribes (baby food and turkey), he backed away each time I tried to pet him.  I figured that's normal behavior after coming home from the clinic and we would be back on track after a few days.  He also seemed a bit depressed not having his sister to cuddle with.  I have since let Pippa out of her crate and both are very happy to be together again and playing

As of today, we're pretty much back to where we were prior to them going to the clinic - they don't hide when I enter the room (unless they're really startled), they'll let me touch/pet while they're eating and with bribes, they'll step up onto my lap for treats, etc.  I continue to try and pet each of them without using bribery.  Sometimes, they don't mind a bit and I can easily spend 15 minutes scratching/petting them on their head, under their chin, etc.  But that seems to be only when they are very sleepy and at certain times of the day.  Otherwise, as soon as they see my hand approaching, they back away.  I can usually get them to come back to me with baby food and I can once again touch them.  Max is much more receptive to petting without bribery but Pippa flip-flops between "it's OK" and "OMG you're touching me!"

Question:  is it normal for them to still be somewhat apprehensive about me touching them without bribery?  I'm thrilled when I can touch them but then I get just as frustrated when they say "no way"!  I'm trying not to force it but it is so frustrating when I'm able to touch them one minute but can't touch them again unless I have something to bribe them with, especially Pippa.

Abbie:

She continues to frustrate me and is still in her crate.  The hissing and lunging at me has lessened considerably, however.  I'm not able to touch her but she will take food from me.  I can sense that she would like to come out of the crate and join her kittens when they're running around the room and playing.  I want to let her out but I'm fearful that will cause a set-back with Max and Pippa.  I was hoping to be further along with them by now, but am thankful for the progress we've made.  The idea of Max and Pippa regressing even just a tiny bit when I let Abbie out is causing me to hesitate.  Should I just let her out and see what happens?  If they do regress, will I be able to get back to the point we're at now or will it be that much harder?