JUST BOUGHT TWO EIGHT MONTH OLD ORIENTAL KITTENS FROM A QUESTIONABLE BREEDER

Hello Everybody,

I am new to your site but have been reading various posts and am very impressed with most of the responses.  I need your help, please!  I have just purchased two (brother and sister) purebred oriental 8 month old kittens from a registered breeder but unfortunately they are worrying me with their behaviour.  I should have seen the warning signs but chose to ignore them - and I think I did so at my peril.

Firstly, I found them on an online classified site.  It just advertised them as purebred orientals - one a havana, the other black.  I firstly tried to research the breeder, and although I found various references to her and her bloodline, she does not have her own website which is a little strange in this day and age.  Anyway, made contact, asked some questions and then decided to go around and meet the kittens. 

I must say that initially I only had intentions of taking the male as we have only ever had one cat.  She was very surprised at that and anyway, my husband had expressed interest before about having two cats. 

Well, you could smell the cats from outside the front door! and when you entered, the stench nearly knocked you off your feet.  It was a tiny house and you immediately entered a very small livingroom which already had grandpa and grandma(humans!) in situ with about 6 cats running about.  Two of them were just adorable, a lilac point siamese female and another female but this time a grey oriental.  They were both very  friendly (especially the liiac point with whom I fell in love with straight away!) and then, there were our two.  They were streaking through the house like crazy, tumbling, skittering around, freaking out.  She grabbed one, but I noticed that it had its claws out and did not particularly want to be held.  She grabbed the second one and, the same thing.  I just put it down to being nervous with strange people in their territory.

The breeder was quite bubbly but nervy at the same time but answered all our questions.  She then took us on a tour of her breeding facility.  Just a porch area at the back of her house, basically.  There were cages and cages of siamese and orientals of all colourways.  About three cages had queens with litters.  She even had cages with silky terriers which she also keeps and shows. She then took us outside to show us the sire and dam.  But firstly she had to lock away the afghans and borzois she also breeds and shows!  The backyard was tiny but well kept and the breeding cats were each in their own sturdy cages and seemed to be okay.  She took out the stud, which quite surprised me as we were able to pat him and he seemed quite docile, (seal point siamese) as was the mother (havana oriental). 

Anyway, we decided to take both and picked them up two days later.  She gave me all their papers, desexing certificate etc.  We live 6 hours away so drove straight home. 

I have always had siamese and know that they are impossible for the first week or so, so was prepared for a similar situation, but... These two, the boy, more than the girl, seem to not have been socialised very well, if at all.  I now understand why they were running around like crazy because she mentioned that they had been 'let out' .  I assumed she meant outdoors but now I understand she meant from their cage.  I am now worried 10 days on that they will never calm down and be the affectionate siamese like cats we have been accustomed to over many years.  

The girl is terribly sweet, and the leader of the two, and we have made progress compared to day one, but still shoots away if anyone attempts to pat or touch her.  A couple of days ago I coaxed her out to take some kibble from my hand but she skittered off the moment I attempted to touch her.  To tell you the truth I don't think she is going to be the major problem, I think the boy will. 

He is the most timid.  Even after 10 days is slinking around very low to the floor, darting past us trying to escape any contact.  He is the one that urinated in his cage on the way home which I have never had happen with any of the siamese we have had before.  He mewed all the way home, (she never said a w.  ord) but has not spoke since (the girl meows at us when she is hungry - of if we raise our voices, funnily enought!).  They both use their kitty litter well, although two nights ago he defecated on our bedroom floor.  Also, there seems to be something wrong with his left eye.  He almost looks blind.  I wrote her an email questioning her about it and she never wrote back!  I rang the vet who did their final check and she said nothing was amiss, but it definitely looks blind.  Of course, we can't get him into a cage to take him to the vets until he stops being so timid.

I am just worried that they will never adjust, that they will never allow us to pat them or be affectionate with them and that they will just act like scared wild animals forever.  Help!  Any advice?  Some reassurance?  Thank you so much and sorry for such a long post!

She sounds like a BYB (Back Yard Breeder) or the equivalent of a puppy mill to me.  You probably won't hear back from her.  She has your money.  It's done.  That's not the point.  Did you not keep them in a small room until they calmed down?  If not, try to catch them and do so.  They need to be kept in a room for about a week.  Most people prefer the bathroom.  How old are they? *I just read they are 8 months old... They need to be spayed and neutered ASAP... They are in puberty and can breed and they will soon enough if they haven't already.  The breeder gave you a certificate and hadn't had that done yet?  Yea... Not good.  Most responsible breeders do not release until they are desexed and they have it done way before this point. 

Also, it kind of worried me that you called the parents the sire and the dam?  Did SHE say that or you?  Because that's the dog world, not the cat world.  In the cat world, they are called the tom and the queen.  So she breeds both dogs and cats?  Yea, more evidence of BYB. 

Anyway, you need to try to start over.  Keep them in a small space and don't push or rush them to get used to you.  This is common with BYB kittens.... To be unsocial.  They may never be lap cats but you can at least get them to a point where they aren't wild cats and will let you pet them and be somewhat normal.  It will take work and lots of patience and consistency. 

Talk sweet to them.  Offer your hand with treats or something at first.  Don't try to pet them.  Let them take the treat or pet you first (rub against your or put their paw on you).  Don't be discouraged if it doesn't happen right away.  Give them time and just keep trying and offering them a treat until you can hold your hand out without it and they rub it or want you to pet them.  Slowly introduce them to the rest of the house once they have established they trusts you.  Keep it brief.  Let them set the pace.  If they seem scared or overwhelmed, just put them back in their safe place... At this time, maybe you can have a room or area other than the restroom that they can claim as theirs, their safe room.  A good idea for all cats.  Their place to go when you have company or a scary storm or the kids or grandkids are bothering them. 

Consider that they've probably never had one on one attention or affection and this is new and scary for them.  Think about how you would feel in their "paws."  Give them time.  And don't give up hope.

Dear P3 and the King,

Thank you so much for your great advice and reassurances.  Yes, on hindsight I can truly say she seems to have been a BYB which makes me really angry because she is registered here with one of the national cat society bodies. (We are in Australia).  I am sorry if I gave you the impression that they were not desexed because they are.  What I mean was that I received a certificate from the vet indicating in writing that both cats had been desexed at 3 months.  I also received their breeding history and vaccination records.

Also, please excuse my ignorance with terminology.  I am the one who called them 'sire' and 'dam' because on all the registration papers and genealogy records of any cats that I have had the father has always been called the 'sire' and the mother the 'dam'.  I know that queen indicates the breeding mother, but I'm not too sure about the usage of 'tom' here in Australia.  That tends to have a negative connotation here.  I just don't have the experience to know what the father is called here.  She personally called them 'the mum' and 'the dad'.

When we first got them we set them up in our laundry with litter trays, food and water.  We kept them there for about three days and then opened the door that adjoins my son's room.  They then spent the next few days under his bed, but sometimes would come out and play or lie on his bed, even with him there.  on the 7th day we opened the door to his bedroom which leads into the rest of the house.  They now run between rooms although after the toilet experience on my bedroom floor we closed all the doors to the bedrooms and the main bathroom so mainly they were restricted to the living/kitchen area, my son's bedroom and the laundry. 

They tend to hide under his bed for most of the day but emerge to be fed, with Siah the little girl, asking for food.  Gecko, the boy, says nothing but comes when there is food and they both seem to know their names.  Around 7-8pm they both come out and race around the house like crazy things, playing with each other and letting off steam.  We let them do this to tire them out and then we feed them and put them into the laundry for the night where they stay without incident untll the morning.

Siah is a lot calmer about our presence and this afternoon I went to where she was and sat on the floor with a book and she didn't bother about me.  Gecko on the other hand fled as soon as I approached the room and stayed under the bed until I left.  Later on my daughter sat on the floor and followed your advice about handfeeding them treats which Siah accepted but Gecko came nowhere near my daughter, just scurrying past her in that very low position to get away and hide under the bed.

I think Siah will come around in time but I am just worried about the boy as I think he has a few congenital health issues.  We've all got so much love to give and can't wait for them both to accept us.  Thanks again

Hi josieverona and welcome to TCS!

I'm wondering what the congenital issues are with your boy? 

Also I think it's well worth considering contacting the cat society of which she is a member with your concerns.

I'm in Australia too, up in Brisbane.

Hello Mani,

thanks for your suggestions.  I was thinking that as well but I want to wait to get him to a vet to see what his problems are.  He apparently had a vet check on the day before I picked him up and was given the all clear except for a spot of gingivitis on one of his teeth which concerned me a bit because I know that it can cause problems. But I cannot believe that the vet did not pick up the eye problem.  When we first saw the cats they were rushing around like crazy and so it was very difficult to see anything but their colour but me husband said to me that he thought his eye looked a bit funny.  It took us days to actually get a close up look of him but I am sure he is blind in that eye.  You know how when you look into a siamese or oriental's eyes you often cannot see the true colour it just seems as if there is a light shining behind the eye.  Well, in the good eye you can see that but in the funny eye there is no light.

Also, maybe it is just the way he slinks around very low, but his back legs look strange.  As if they are bowed, or short or that he has a funny gait.   Is this the look of male orientals?

They were also mega full of worms even after worming and they seem to have fleas as well.  I have never had any of these problems from any other breeder we have got our different siamese from.

I'm a little angry and a little worried, but having said that, every day there is a little change in them.  Came home tonight and my daughter informed me that they had been racing around playing, which they have been doing but also sitting on the lounges, which they have never done, and Gecko was sitting up high on the back of the lounge which is a big change as I have only seeing him skittling around low on the floor or under the bed

Thanks for your advice and concern.

They will settle down, hopefully, in a loving new home.   But do let us know what the vet says. 

 I really would consider making some kind of inquiry about his breeder, as worms and fleas are simply not acceptable!

I fully agree with @Mani  , there is no excuse at all for them to have fleas and be loaded with worms, that is not an upstanding breeder with integrity.

Nor one who houses and breeds yet is not concerned about socializing properly and continuously.

I think the concerns about your boy's hind legs may simply be the low to the ground posture of a frightened cat, just as a feral would do.

Always low, semi-crouched position, except when they are certain no humans are around.

One way is to spy. Depending on your set-up, if there were a way for you to spy and watch where they believe they are alone, this will help you see that his legs are just fine/not.

@P3 and The King  offered some good advice as well. 

You are basically allowing them to adapt to your home and family, but it will be on their terms in their time, due to their age.

I helped/coached in another thread similar to yours, http://www.thecatsite.com/t/283357/help-with-16-week-old#post_3609659 that you might want to read through.

While I wouldn't follow the advice I gave her about caging, as yours should be contained to work more with them, especially the boy, they are likely not quite as feral-ish, and are twice his age.

I will follow this thread and watch for questions and updates.

At least you are able to see a bit of progress daily, no matter how small, which is a big plus for your situation and also shows you that, with time they will eventually adjust well.

I DO think that your experience warrants concern about this breeder.

I would try to report this somehow, not sure who or where but hopefully you will know.

It's for all the future adopters as well as the offspring she creates.

josieverona said:

 
Dear P3 and the King,

Thank you so much for your great advice and reassurances.  Yes, on hindsight I can truly say she seems to have been a BYB which makes me really angry because she is registered here with one of the national cat society bodies. (We are in Australia).  I am sorry if I gave you the impression that they were not desexed because they are.  What I mean was that I received a certificate from the vet indicating in writing that both cats had been desexed at 3 months.  I also received their breeding history and vaccination records.

Also, please excuse my ignorance with terminology.  I am the one who called them 'sire' and 'dam' because on all the registration papers and genealogy records of any cats that I have had the father has always been called the 'sire' and the mother the 'dam'.  I know that queen indicates the breeding mother, but I'm not too sure about the usage of 'tom' here in Australia.  That tends to have a negative connotation here.  I just don't have the experience to know what the father is called here.  She personally called them 'the mum' and 'the dad'.

When we first got them we set them up in our laundry with litter trays, food and water.  We kept them there for about three days and then opened the door that adjoins my son's room.  They then spent the next few days under his bed, but sometimes would come out and play or lie on his bed, even with him there.  on the 7th day we opened the door to his bedroom which leads into the rest of the house.  They now run between rooms although after the toilet experience on my bedroom floor we closed all the doors to the bedrooms and the main bathroom so mainly they were restricted to the living/kitchen area, my son's bedroom and the laundry. 

They tend to hide under his bed for most of the day but emerge to be fed, with Siah the little girl, asking for food.  Gecko, the boy, says nothing but comes when there is food and they both seem to know their names.  Around 7-8pm they both come out and race around the house like crazy things, playing with each other and letting off steam.  We let them do this to tire them out and then we feed them and put them into the laundry for the night where they stay without incident untll the morning.

Siah is a lot calmer about our presence and this afternoon I went to where she was and sat on the floor with a book and she didn't bother about me.  Gecko on the other hand fled as soon as I approached the room and stayed under the bed until I left.  Later on my daughter sat on the floor and followed your advice about handfeeding them treats which Siah accepted but Gecko came nowhere near my daughter, just scurrying past her in that very low position to get away and hide under the bed.

I think Siah will come around in time but I am just worried about the boy as I think he has a few congenital health issues.  We've all got so much love to give and can't wait for them both to accept us.  Thanks again

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Oh OK.  I feel better knowing she at least fixed them... Yea, belonging to cat fancy clubs does not insure anything.  Cat fancy clubs do not check in and regulate a lot.  It just means they have pedigrees and lineage. 

Behaviorists see kittens like this as semi feral.  So basically you have to establish you are someone to be loved and trusted.  A friend.  Momma.  All they know is that humans have fed them and caged them.  So it'll be difficult at first... But, in time, they will trusts and love you.  Just be consistent and loving.  Let them set the pace and do not get discouraged if things aren't going as quickly as you'd like.  Cats don't like change, even if it's good change.  And they need time to adjust and accept.  Soon, they will see that this is much better than they've had before.  They probably already know this.  But they fear you will put them back in their cages.  Cats, contrary to popular belief, have excellent memories and we now know they can maintain memories and information for a very long time. 

As for the boy, just consult with a good vet.  It is good that you have spotted some concerns.  Most would probably let it slide.  They feel "Oh I got paperwork saying they're healthy and they are purebred from a breeder....."  Well, purebreds are often ones that have issues, especially if from irresponsible breeders.  Because they often do not care about the welfare of the animals and do not have them checked for issues.  They just keep breeding them... And selling them to people who end up finding the truth often too late and in heartbreaking ways. 

However, most issues, if caught early enough, can be treated or looked at more carefully so the kittens can lead relatively normal, healthy lives. 

If I were you, I would just start saying you RESCUED these poor babies... Because you did.  You rescued them from hell.  Kudos to you!

Dear Catwoman707, thanks so much for your post and advice.  Yes, you might be right about the legs as I have seen him in no other position but the low crouched running away position.  I was thinking that too.  Hopefully this is the case.

Unfortunately, woke up today to discover that Siah, our little girl, seems to be squinting ever so slightly.  Maybe Gecko's eye is not blind from birth but maybe uvitis?  Or something contagious?  Siah's eyes were clear and fine but now I am not so sure.

Made an appointment for the vet's today.  Dropped in there and picked up some pheromone spray.  Brought it home with some bbq chicken put their carriers in the laundry where they feed, litter and sleep and put pheromones over me, the carriers and then placed some chicken morsels at the back of the cage.  Yes, they both approached the cages and even entered them but when I tried to push them in to close the cage doors, of course they squirmed out backwards and shot off like crazy.

Tried only one attempt each of this because don't want to undo the 11 days of work trying to get them to trust me.  Now I am upset because I think that they will never trust the cage again, and have set back their progress a fair bit.

Cancelled the vet's and am still worried about their eyes.

Your best bet with getting them caged would be to leave it open all the time and only put their food in there.

Soon enough they will easily go into and out of to eat, and be able to get nabbed that way.

You can also tie a string to the door and run it out the back end, so it can be pulled shut once inside.

This is tricky for a couple different reasons though, for one, you have to try it out so you find the best and most seciure parts to attach it to and out of, for leverage basically.

Once pulled though, you better hold on to it tightly, because it not, and they escape, it's square one all over again.

The other part is, if the door is swung too far open, it wont close fast enough. It needs to sit at 12:00 rather than 10 or 11:00. Do you see what I mean?

Then there is the witness. The one who watches the other get closed into it. So yes, tricky but doable.

You can also use a trap if absolutely necessary. They have no idea what that is and would trap easily.

One thought, it won't do you any good to get eye meds if you are unable to get ahold of her. You would have to crate her for treatment.

It's quite possible that at one time they had a uri before vaccinating, which means as kittens it may come and go, and you might see a bit of eye discharge or sneezing, etc.

thanks for your great advice.  I have started putting every meal in their cages and they do go in there to eat but make sure they keep their bottoms out! I must report though that although they still won't let any of us touch them, they are quite happy to come out and wander around the house and do not run away every time we walk past.  They even stretch out on the rug in the living room and play with each other in our view.  Yesterday was just so cute.  I couldn't find either of them after having been out, so started looking around in their usual hiding places.  I went into my bedroom and found the little boy, under my bed, but not Siah, the girl.  Then I noticed a very slight shape under the duvet/quilt.  I couldn't even begin to think that it might be her so kept looking around.  No luck.  Came back into the bedroom and the shape was still there so I lifted the duvet out of curiosity.  Well, it was just adorable.  There she was, Siah, fully stretched out like a little human - and she didn't budge after I lifted the covers.  She just looked at me.  So I re-covered here and quietly left.  Mind you, the temperature was in the 90's, being summer here, and she was completely covered!  So cute!

I am just hoping this continues and they will learn not to run from us and allow us to start patting them and giving them some hugs.

Thanks again for the words of advice and encouragement.

Let us know how they are going..

Well, it is three weeks today since we got out two orientals, Siah and Gecko, and yes, we have made progress which is great, but we seem to make two steps forward and three steps back and I am really concerned that the boy is never going to socialise and let us love him.  Siah is a total star!  She is the alpha cat of the two which is very funny seeing she is so tiny compared to him, but my daughter has made wonderful inroads with her to the point where she acts like a real cat (lol) letting her stroke and pat and cuddle her on the floor.  She winds herself through my daughter's legs and we are thrilled.  She comes to her name and talks when she is hungry.  She tolerates the rest of the family occasionally patting her if she is sleepy or in her basket and we hope she comes round and gets affectionate with all of us like she is with our daughter, but we can see lovely progress.

On the other hand, Gecko, who has made some progress, still acts pretty much like when we got him.  He belts past anyone near him as if he is terrified.  He still slinks around very low to the ground and basically just runs from one hidey hole to the next.  Some of us have petted him, first thing in the morning when he is still in the basket with Siah, but you know that he is only allowing it because he is cornered and at the first opportunity scrambles out and away from you. You just have to glance at him and he darts away, scared.

Is there any hope?

josieverona said:

 
Is there any hope?

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Very much so, time and patience are your friend and as others have mentioned, don't push him.  Let him come to you when he feels comfortable.  

I took in a cat that was being chased by 2 small dogs constantly (which is why the family was looking to re-home him) long story short took him 3 months for him to come around and actually WANT to be with him.  On the same note, I bought a cat from a breeder who never really liked me, put up with me as I was the bringer of food and picker upper of poop.  He let me pet him on his terms, when he wanted some affection he would seek me out, let me pet him until he was done and then left.

Basically just let him do his thing and let his own personality form.  He could turn into a total lap cat or one that picks and chooses when you get to love on him.

Thanks so much.  I'll do what you say and be patient.  I really hope he follows the example of your cat that was chased by dogs.  Wow, if he became affectionate after such terrible circumstances and being scared witless I still have some hope with Gecko.

Well, one month and three days have passed since we picked up the teenagers and we have been very patient but I am starting to lose hope that the situation will change, at least with the boy.  The girl, Siah, occasionally shows some affection, usually when associated with food, but even when she lets my daughter pat and stroke her, the next moment she reverts to running away scared and dashing under the nearest piece of furniture.  The boy, Gecko has never let anyone touch him, let alone pat and hold him, and even now, when he should be used to all of us in the house, every day the same thing, runs scared witless from one hidey hole to the next. 

What I want to know is, if we talk sweetly to him but otherwise let him go about his business and we go about ours, does that mean that the way he is is the way he will always be just seeing us as big scarey monsters who deign to feed him a few times a day?  Do you think he will ever come around or is this it?  I feel very claustrophobic thinking that I might be sharing my house for the next 10-15 years with an animal that is scared stupid of myself and my family and just skitters from one hiding place to another with no hope of any affection from him at all?

I am sorry to sound so desperate but we have had a number of very special very beautiful and loving affectionate siamese that it breaks my heart that we will not have the same with these cats.  Sorry to keep on posting the same sort of questions but I'd love some feedback.  Should we continue along the same behaviour path of not approaching them, not having any direct eye contact but when we do we blink slowly and talk sweetly, feed them well, try not to startle them?  Is there anything we should start to do to stimulate some sort of positive reaction or signs of acceptance/affection?  Thank you

OMG! I just went to go to bed - its 1am here in Australia - and discovered cat faeces on my bed! On my quilt.  I am just horrified to think that the problem has just now escalated.  I am sure it is the boy.  When we were driving him home from the breeders (it was a long drive) we discovered that he had urinated in his cat cage.  Never, with any of the siamese we have had have any of them done this and they have all done the same distance.  Even kittens at 3 months did not do this.

Also about 3 weeks ago we found cat poo on our bedroom floor, but we had only had the cats for a short time but looked upon it as an accident in their new home.  Again, I am sure it was the boy.  But this!  Help!

HI THERE! I'm not sure why I am just seeing this now, as I check new posts daily. I agree with what some others have said, you rescued these kitties from a bad situation, and you need to work with them as if they are semi ferals.

I almost want to say back up, keep them confined in on room. Go in multiple times daily to talk, play with a toy on a string, have some really yummy special treat with you, then leave. With everyone in the family dropping in to do this, you should see improvements in 7 to 10 days. I use to use canned salmon as the treat when I did this.

I am also I'm surprised no one has commented on the housing situation. The house needs to be reported to the local Animal Control Officer for investigation. Noticing a smell as you approach the house is a big concern. The stench once inside, your description of all the cats and dogs, it all sends alarm bells ringing. Those animals can't help themselves they need a human to start the ball rolling. Please consider reporting the situation.

I agree with @Freedom, you need to back up. The ideal thing would be to crate each cat in an XL dog crate; but, if you are unable to do this, then confine them to a single room (or bathroom.) Make sure there is no furniture they can get under that prevents you from having access to them (either take the bed out of the room or place the mattress/box springs directly on the floor.) You can provide a box or a covered cat bed for them to hide in.

You simply aren't going to see much progress if they are allowed to free-roam in the house.

In terms of socializing, 5 weeks is nothing. It can take months to build a relationship/trust with a cat that has not had proper human interaction.

I took in an injured cat (fairly certain he is purebred and at least 2+ yrs old) beginning of the year. I had to trap him to get medical attention for him. His behavior was semi-feral...hissing, growling, couldn't be handled...though, I knew he had been in a home at some point in his life...no doubt. He so desperately wanted to be around people, he was just scared.

For the first 12 weeks I had him he was crated and had to be sedated for the vet to do any work on him. I would say the first 10 weeks, he wanted nothing to do with me and would growl and hiss when I would clean his litter box or put in new food/water.

Longer story short, after about 12 weeks, he started to trust me slowly. By 5 months he had graduated from the crate to a small room. He was still scared; but, would approach me and eat treats put of my hand.

Now, nearly 10 months after I caught him, he is the biggest love bug. Wants to be held, gives hugs/kisses and follows me around the house talking. BIG difference from when I first took him in.

All this to say that it is certainly possible for both Siah and Gecko to become more active members of your family. It's just going to take time and patience. I certainly can't predict whether or not they will become lap cats; but, they certainly can get to a point where they are confident in the house and around you and your family. You're just going to have to throw your expectations out the door, slow down the process and celebrate every positive change you see in them.

Cats like these often end up forming exceptional bonds with their owners (and vice versa!)

Marianne Faithfull has been crated in a large cat condo for the better part of a month. She is slowly coming around, and this morning I was able to put tetracycline in her right eye without a fuss. After her next worming on the thirteenth I'll let her out into the rest of the house. She is a feral cat who was being fed by some folks in a nearby subdivision. It takes time. It can take a day, it can take a year. Don't give up!